Are Sharp's panels (OEMed too) IPS? Other LCD tech. - AVS Forum
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Old 02-23-2008, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so far I know that:
1) LG.Philips makes some IPS panels (not sure what sizes);
2) All of the large panels from S-LCD (the Samsung/Sony joint factory in S. Korea) are S-PVA types;
3) IPS-Alpha (the Hitachi, Matsushita, Toshiba panel factory in Japan -www.ips-alpha.co.jp/en/index.html) makes IPS panels only up to 32"
4) AU Optronics OEMs both P-MVA panels (similar but not quite as good as S-PVA) and a lot of TN (plain twisted-nematic), but I'm not sure to which if any big TV makers.

So what LCD technology does Sharp use in its large (40"+) panels--both for its own brand sets and for its OEM customers (such as Toshiba)? Is Sharp really making 42" and 52" IPS panels? Based on the big premium one pays for an S-IPS panel in a computer monitor, it would seem that TVs using IPS would have to be much more expensive than they are.

Lastly, are any large LCD TVs using just TN panels? Or are all big LCD TVs on the showroom floor either S-PVA, P-MVA, or some type of IPS?

Please be specific in your answers. And I do not need to hear arguments about which technology is better for viewing angles, speed, etc. Thanks.
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:12 PM
 
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Whats ips? I own a sharp 94u in its amazing for every thing games movies pc monitor tv i dont no what kind of panel it is but it gets the job done. hope my reply helps you.
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Old 02-23-2008, 07:42 PM
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Sharp has their own factories in Japan. It is my understanding that they also make the LCD's used in the Blackberry and the iPod.

http://sharp-world.com/kameyama/index.html

You can also check out their annual report. I believe Samsung and Sony are doing the joint venture in Mexico.

http://sharp-world.com/corporate/ir/...ual/index.html

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Old 02-25-2008, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Bump... Sorry, but the first 2 replies above were COMPLETELY off the mark of the conversation I was trying to start.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:26 PM
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IPS- In-plane switching and MVA (and other names) are two approaches to achieve a symmetrical viewing cone by preventing birefrengence. As standard TN (twisted nematic) LCD uses the 90 degree front-to-back twist of the LCD to open and close the LCD "light valve". The problem is that there is a color shift, primarily up and down. This is caused by certain light frequencies (colors) falling out of phase from the others. Usually, from the top, the display fades to light water-colory looking images and from the bottom, the display will go into a strange inverse video mode. Look at one of those $79 portable DVD players (with display) to see what I am talking about.

Anyway, IPS switches the LC molecules in a lateral direction (using two transistors) and any of the MVA-types use a multi-domain or different tilt angles within the LCD, and this eliminates the lose of these color ferquencies. In most cases, modern, hip symmetrical LCD use both methods. What out for a trap. Most of the manufacturers do not open advertise the exact method for symmetrical viewing. They make up silly acronyms and of course, ONLY they have the unique and proprietary "XYZ-MVA" technology (I made this one up).

If the set is listed as having a symmetrical viewing cone of any better than 80-80-80-80degrees, they have some or all of the above. And in the end, if it is symmetrical with better than 80 degrees, you are buying a set that is as good as it gets (or needs to be).
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdad View Post

Bump... Sorry, but the first 2 replies above were COMPLETELY off the mark of the conversation I was trying to start.


Did you actually research the links? Sharp manufactures their large LCD's at those plants. There are only so many factories in the world currently able to manufacture the largest substrates. If Sharp is providing the LCD's to other vendors in this size range they should be coming from the same factories.

Again, information about Sharp's manufacturing plants and the technology used is available on their global site. If you want to start a new conversation, then start a new thread.

http://sharp-world.com/kameyama/index.html

http://www.sharp-world.com/kameyama/feature/index.html

http://www.sharp-world.com/kameyama/tech/index.html

http://www.sharp-world.com/kameyama/virtual/index.html

I believe the Kamayama 2 plant is where the latest generation largest panels are being produced today.
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:03 PM
 
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I can tell you this superdad I own the sharp SE94u in LOVE IT ISP are what ever your talking about dosent matter if you seen my sharp SE94u
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:20 PM
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Wow
Super helpful there dirtwarrior, I'm sure that is exactly what he is looking for. Buy a keyboard.

Sharp uses what they call the Advanced Super View LCD technology, which is compared to the TN technique in a previously posted link here:
http://www.sharp-world.com/kameyama/...lop/index.html

So this means it is definitely not TN.
I am not sure if this ASV is some sort of twist on ISP or not, but Sharp lists its viewing angle for all of its bigger sized panels as 78 degrees, so make of that what you will

Hope this was of some help.

EDIT: Sharp lists their panels as ASV / Black TFT Panels
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey, I'm sorry gang. Did not mean to raise hackles.
In rereading my original post (and the thread title) I see it could make readers believe that I am not aware that Sharp itself is one of the biggest makers (OEM) of LCD panels. Quite the contrary, and I first listed the other major OEMs to show that I had done a little bit of work understanding the technology and who is offering what.
I just was unclear about what technique Sharp was (is) using in their panels (both in their own brand sets and what they OEM to other firms--specifically Toshiba as in another thread I am helping sort out whose panels Toshiba is using in various size premium 2008 models).

Thank you yatesd, for the link to Sharp's Kamayama factory. The one page where they diagram their "Advanced Super View" is the first I have seen that seems to indicate they are using in-plane switching. Nowhere else on Sharp's sites do they get anywhere close to indicating what method they use. Yet of course one can read technical discussions elsewhere (Wikipedia, etc.) on the pros/cons of the different LCD methods. but the actual mfrs. are not so forthcoming.
(I do know that it is easy to pick out a TN display by looking at it from below, but I did not rule out the possibility that TNs could be used by some makers as nobody watches TV from extreme low angles, and TN panels don't look too bad from side angles and they are faster than more advanced types--hence preferred by gamers, not that I am a gamer.)

Again, the intention of my post was just trying to clarify what type of panels Sharp is making in large sizes (apparently IPS types), as the premium pricing of IPS-based computer monitors (of all sizes) has me wondering how they can do so for giant TVs that cost less than 2K. So I thought perhaps they were making S-PVA or P-MVA units like the other majors.

So I guess this is settled. Thanks to all. Now If only I could find a list of what sizes each of the OEMs are making their large panels in, and which brands' models are using which. I wish there was a www.tftcentral.co.uk (database for exact panel-type lookup for computer monitors) for TVs!
Regards...AJC
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:37 PM
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Huh? How did you come to the conclusion that Sharp's ASV is "using in-plane switching" - it's very obviously a variant of VA... what they call symmetric. With IPS the crystals always stay in the same plane and parallel to the two substrates/polarizers.

BTW Sony has just signed up to use Sharp panels from April 2008, in addition to their S-LCD panels from the joint Samsung plant. Other significant recent news is that Panasonic(Matsushita) is taking a majority share in the IPS Alpha Hitachi subsidiary and it will become a Panasonic subsidiary on completion of the financials.
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I admit that I did not look closely enough (nor know enough) to tell that the diagram on Sharp's site was not depicting an IPS method. And after the other posts I sort of took those to imply that Sharp is IPS.

Which brings us back once again to the whole point of my original post:
a) Is Sharp or anyone else producing 40"+ IPS panels for TVs?;
b) What technology is Sharp using for the panels they build? (not IPS apparently);
So if it is not IPS, is it S-PVA or P-MVA?

And again, I'd love to know what sizes they are offering in their top panels (the ones they are willing to OEM to other brands).
Dynamic contrast ratio specs for various set brands' 2008 models are beginning to come out, and the numbers are all over the map--not just between makes, but even within a manufacturer's own line, even within the same top class of a given brand.
That would seem to indicate that (someone like Toshiba) is using a different panel brand for different sizes (an example being the new Cinema XF550 series where the 40" and 52" are spec'ed at 30,000:1 yet the 46" will be 20,000:1). What else could account for such. And panel-make variations could be a deciding factor in performance (and not just in contrast ratio, but in color accuracy and viewing angle, etc.).
Hence my curiosity is not just for idle amusement.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdad View Post

Well, I admit that I did not look closely enough (nor know enough) to tell that the diagram on Sharp's site was not depicting an IPS method. And after the other posts I sort of took those to imply that Sharp is IPS.

Which brings us back once again to the whole point of my original post:
a) Is Sharp or anyone else producing 40"+ IPS panels for TVs?;
b) What technology is Sharp using for the panels they build? (not IPS apparently);
So if it is not IPS, is it S-PVA or P-MVA?

And again, I'd love to know what sizes they are offering in their top panels (the ones they are willing to OEM to other brands).
Dynamic contrast ratio specs for various set brands' 2008 models are beginning to come out, and the numbers are all over the map--not just between makes, but even within a manufacturer's own line, even within the same top class of a given brand.
That would seem to indicate that (someone like Toshiba) is using a different panel brand for different sizes (an example being the new Cinema XF550 series where the 40" and 52" are spec'ed at 30,000:1 yet the 46" will be 20,000:1). What else could account for such. And panel-make variations could be a deciding factor in performance (and not just in contrast ratio, but in color accuracy and viewing angle, etc.).
Hence my curiosity is not just for idle amusement.

As you've seen Sharp's term is ASV, for Advanced Super View, so does not describe, or even imply any "technology", though the URL above shows a diagram of what is basically Sharp's own variant on VA. The addition by Sony of Sharp as a LCD cell supplier makes one wonder if they are unhappy with the S-LCD in some way - there have certainly been plenty of issues with those panels.

I also am curious and umm, frustrated by the variety of panels floating around and the possibility that some TV mfrs are even making the same TV model with more than one panel source... e.g. one day you get a S-LCD PVA, the next a AU Optronics MVA... not what we want I think.

As for 40"+ TVs with IPS variants, LG makes their own S-IPS panels and as I already noted, Panasonic is taking over the IPS Alpha operation from Hitachi. I got a LG 42LBX Opus a few weeks ago and I'm very pleased with it. I believe that JVC is using LG's S-IPS panels in some of their models.
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdad View Post


So what LCD technology does Sharp use in its large (40"+) panels--both for its own brand sets and for its OEM customers (such as Toshiba)? Is Sharp really making 42" and 52" IPS panels? Based on the big premium one pays for an S-IPS panel in a computer monitor, it would seem that TVs using IPS would have to be much more expensive than they are.

Lastly, are any large LCD TVs using just TN panels? Or are all big LCD TVs on the showroom floor either S-PVA, P-MVA, or some type of IPS?

Please be specific in your answers. And I do not need to hear arguments about which technology is better for viewing angles, speed, etc. Thanks.

You might poke around in here http://www.sharpsma.com/Page.aspx/am...rary/Page.aspx and see if that answers your question.

Larry
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Old 03-03-2008, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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lorenzow: Thanks for the link. I did just now spend about 20 min. there and looked at every technical doc they had on their large panels (and even a few of their smaller sizes). Even in a 30 page specification document for their 46" panel there is not one mention of the type of TFT LCD technology they are employing.
Based on various comments here, I am convinced that Sharp is NOT producing any IPS displays.
Unless someone can prove otherwise...
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Old 03-03-2008, 02:47 PM
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Well, I thought that Lairddramberg had pointed out that it was a variant of VA, I am assuming to mean Verical Alignment and not IPS. I have not looked at the linked documents, but do remember when I was shopping around several months ago, it was not clear to me what LCD tech was meant by "ASV"

As far as IPS panels are concerned, I know that LG-Philips joint venture produces S-IPS panels that are used in the higher end LG and Philips sets. They have sizes up to 47 inches at least. An interesting thing is that in my model LCD, for example, (philips PFL7432d/32) the 42 and 47 inch models use an LG-Philips S-IPS panel. The 52 inch from what I can gather outsources the panel from Sharp, not using the S-IPS from LG-philips.

Also, a comment on what you said about some toshibas having different specd ratios. Typically, S-LCD panels are S-PVA and come in 40 and 46 inch sizes. The Sharp "ASV" and LG-philips S-IPS come in 42 and 47 inch sizes. In the anticipation thread for the new toshibas people are making speculations based on the available sizes for the 540 and 550 models.
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Old 03-03-2008, 03:11 PM
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Sharp definitely uses a VA variant. They call it ASV because of the marketing potential. All of the VA modes are similar but different enough to avoid patent infringement where necessary. Sharp doesn't really talk about what makes theirs different, but I would guess it's most similar to A-MVA, an AUO creation meant to match or suprass S-PVA. You might have seen IPS associated with Sharp because of outsourcing. Sharp brand tvs destined for asian markets are often made with whatever panel they can get shipments of, including MVA from CMO/AUO and IPS from LG Display. LG Display (then LG-Philips LCD) was the original creator of IPS and anybody else who produces IPS substrates is doing so under license.
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Old 03-03-2008, 04:35 PM
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You know there's so much misinfo posted on forums like this which then becomes urban folklore. Much of the info is available at links posted here: 1) a scroll to the bottom of this page Sharp LCD shows a diagram which is clearly a VA crystal configuration; the distinguishing factor is mentioned as "symmetrically inclined". 2) LPL makes a range of S-IPS LCD cells from 32" to 52" - clearly shown in the .PDF catalog available here LPL product. 3) The origins of IPS are generally credited to Hitachi and IPS Alpha is a subsidiary of Hitachi Displays which is currently the subject of a partial buy-in by Panasonic(formerly Matsushita) and now Canon; where LPL fits into things is not clear in terms of licensing and/or cross-licensing terms.

If you don't want to click through and read the facts, don't post something "I heard".
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LairdDrambeg View Post


If you don't want to click through and read the facts, don't post something "I heard".

What is this forum for if not uninformed speculation?

Larry
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LairdDrambeg View Post

If you don't want to click through and read the facts, don't post something "I heard".

... this does not directly address the issue, but I READ somewhere that Sharp reverses the usual voltage criteria, off is closed on the ASV, unlike other panels? Anybody read this info?
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:52 PM
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I read in the Sharp literature:

Quote:


The traditional approach to increasing viewing angle is to add a compensation film to the front of a display. Compensation film works fairly well, but only gets to about 140 x 120 degrees. The simplest alternative solution is IPS or S-IPS which uses lateral electric fields applied within the cell structure. IPS requires higher driving voltages that limit the temperature range of operation. PVA (Patterned Vertical Alignment) Technology from Samsung is another approach that has high contrast, but slowed response time. Sharp Advanced Super View Technology provides the best overall performance.


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Old 03-04-2008, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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GREAT stuff gents! These last few posts (and the links) from you all have been much more informative and factual than the few replies received when I first started this thread.
You are providing a nice mix of tech/manufacturer source info. I have been an active participant of the 2008 Toshiba Cinema series anticipation thread--contributing what I can about tech details and different size/panel sources there--and this discussion about Sharp/S-LCD/LG.Philips/IPS-Alpha is very enlightening.

One thing I am still interested in: Speculation on comparative manufacturing costs of various panel types. Based on the fact that S-IPS type computer monitors always cost more (of course more than cheap TN-type monitors, but also more than S-PVA units), it would seem that a large in-plane-switching (IPS) TV should cost a LOT more to produce. Or have LG.Philips and IPS-Alpha managed to get yields and costs down enough to be competitive with other methods?
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Old 03-04-2008, 01:47 PM
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Superdad,

Just to clarify; the reason you didn't receive the answers you were looking for is primarily because the post was placed in an inappropriate thread.

That being said, I am still confused about your ultimate goal. You seem to think IPS is better because it was more expensive to produce. I'm not sure it matters. LCD's weren't nearly as good as Plasmas a few years ago, but now refinements have made LCD's the better choice.

Personally, I only care about ultimate picture quality (response time, color, contrast, etc.), size, reliability, and other features that impact my viewing experience.
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Old 03-04-2008, 02:34 PM
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I was just asking the same question on what type of panel technology Sharp uses on another thread. Except I have one of the first 1080P panels to hit the market over 3 years ago made at the Kamayama factory. The Sharp 45 inch LC45GX6U still looks pretty good to me. I wonder much things have changed other than the price ($6500).
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Old 03-04-2008, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdad View Post

GREAT stuff gents! These last few posts (and the links) from you all have been much more informative and factual than the few replies received when I first started this thread.
You are providing a nice mix of tech/manufacturer source info. I have been an active participant of the 2008 Toshiba Cinema series anticipation thread--contributing what I can about tech details and different size/panel sources there--and this discussion about Sharp/S-LCD/LG.Philips/IPS-Alpha is very enlightening.

One thing I am still interested in: Speculation on comparative manufacturing costs of various panel types. Based on the fact that S-IPS type computer monitors always cost more (of course more than cheap TN-type monitors, but also more than S-PVA units), it would seem that a large in-plane-switching (IPS) TV should cost a LOT more to produce. Or have LG.Philips and IPS-Alpha managed to get yields and costs down enough to be competitive with other methods?

The average selling price of IPS isn't higher than that of other expanded viewing angle panel types. Even if the manufacturing cost is higher they can't give up any price advantage because of how tight the market is. IPS is very commonly found in budget tv brands like Olevia (which uses them pretty exclusively actually) so price is not likely to be a major factor.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdad View Post

One thing I am still interested in: Speculation on comparative manufacturing costs of various panel types. Based on the fact that S-IPS type computer monitors always cost more (of course more than cheap TN-type monitors, but also more than S-PVA units), it would seem that a large in-plane-switching (IPS) TV should cost a LOT more to produce. Or have LG.Philips and IPS-Alpha managed to get yields and costs down enough to be competitive with other methods?

I don't think the incremental costs of producing IPS is inherently, significantly higher than any other technology. PVA & IPS have always lagged on speed vs. TN+film so the size of the gamer market has brought prices down for the TN; one of the reasons IPS monitors are more expensive is that, as the best at color accuracy and off-angle view, they have been adopted by the higher quality mfrs like Eizo and La Cie who target the high-end markets for imaging and photo work.

Mind you I'm intrigued by Philips decision to decrease their stake in the LG IPS LCD operation; is it because they regard it as only marginally viable in the market or is it just part of their announced readjustment of their business model to reduce capital investment in semiconductor and hardware mfr in general? LG's perceived, but false IMO, niche as a "cheaper solution" in the TV and home appliance market is going to be a handicap to them for some time to come I fear. LG still means Lucky Goldstar to many and we know where Goldstar fit into the landscape in the day - somehow Life's Good just doesn't cut it.
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Old 03-16-2008, 09:36 PM
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What is the best S-IPS panel TV in 40" range with great SD quality(i.e. image processor) as well. I am in the market for one. This time tried and tested (from my LCD monitors) IPS route I want to take.

Is there a magic model with no flashes, no clouding, no back light leakage out there that I should look at?
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Old 03-17-2008, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by sharpie07 View Post

What is the best S-IPS panel TV in 40" range with great SD quality(i.e. image processor) as well. I am in the market for one. This time tried and tested (from my LCD monitors) IPS route I want to take.

Is there a magic model with no flashes, no clouding, no back light leakage out there that I should look at?

Best?.... I haven't investigated every single possibility but I'm very happy with my LG 42LBX Opus but our needs may differ - I don't play games at all and have no idea if the LBX series is good for that. To me the SD->HD up-conversion is excellent and of course 1080i/p source is great too - I've no complaints: no clouding, flashlight, smearing or TBE. I believe that JVC & Philips are using S-IPS panels in some sets as might be Hitachi (H-IPS ?).
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:10 PM
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Thanks I am not a gamer either. All I want is a headache free TV. I hope I can still find OPUS series in retailers.

Cheers
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Old 03-17-2008, 09:51 PM
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It appears that the LG50 series is already in some stores so the LG60, which is the new model series comparable to the LBX Opus, may not be far behind.
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Old 03-17-2008, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LairdDrambeg View Post

It appears that the LG50 series is already in some stores so the LG60, which is the new model series comparable to the LBX Opus, may not be far behind.

Wouldn't the LG70 be the equivalent?
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