Panasonic PZ80/PZ85 Calibration Thread (Updated first post) - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post

Tom, the blue shift is very obviously seen, but how do you explain the not-so-subtle change I'm seeing in reds? Turning color management on really desaturates faces, making them look less orangy and much more natural to my eye.

My measurements were taken with an HD signal and an HDMI input. Otherwise, unit-to-unit variation is all I can think of.

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post #542 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

unit-to-unit variation is all I can think of.

Really? No one else sees a change in the reds with color management? I have a 50PZ80U, btw.
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post #543 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsanga View Post

I understand saturation to mean distance from the white point, hue to be angular error about the white point, but what's lightness? Is that Y?

Pretty much.

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Originally Posted by tsanga View Post

From reading your calibration guide, I took Y to be the same as color decoding, as in "set Y of red to be 21% of white by using the color control."

That is essentially correct, though it is a little more complicated than that. The 21% figure (21.26% for HD and 21.24% for SD, to be exact) assumes that the primaries are correct. With anything less than correct primary chromaticities, the 21% value you quote for red can be a little more or a little less. The same is true for the other 2 primary colors.

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post #544 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

That is essentially correct, though it is a little more complicated than that. The 21% figure (21.26% for HD and 21.24% for SD, to be exact) assumes that the primaries are correct. With anything less than correct primary chromaticities, the 21% value you quote for red can be a little more or a little less. The same is true for the other 2 primary colors.

Is this why the lightness error in your HSL chart differs from the decoding error? I'm trying to understand how 20% error in red lightness can become 51% color decoding error.
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post #545 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post

Really? No one else sees a change in the reds with color management? I have a 50PZ80U, btw.

Just to be sure, I retested using a YPbBr 480i component signal. The results were almost exactly the same.

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post #546 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 03:50 PM
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when i was in the store and tried switching color management on and off i didnt see much of a difference, but i kind of felt like i liked the small tweak of a change after, i dunno.
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post #547 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsanga View Post

Is this why the lightness error in your HSL chart differs from the decoding error? I'm trying to understand how 20% error in red lightness can become 51% color decoding error.

That's part of it. Another part has to do with the difference between Lightness and Brightness, which I did not go into because it is more technical than is useful here. But basically lightness is a perceptual measure of luminance that is used to calculate dE. Brightness is just the raw luminance value measured in cd/m2 or fL. That's what you use for color decoding.

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post #548 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Just to be sure, I retested using a YPbBr 480i component signal. The results were almost exactly the same.

I am using HDMI from an upscaling 1080p DVD player and OTA HD @ 720 or 1080i.

Color management has the same effect regardless of the source.
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post #549 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

That's part of it. Another part has to do with the difference between Lightness and Brightness, which I did not go into because it is more technical than is useful here. But basically lightness is a perceptual measure of luminance that is used to calculate dE. Brightness is just the raw luminance value measured in cd/m2 or fL. That's what you use for color decoding.

Google and Wikipedia are my friends....

Thanks, Tom, you got me to do more reading.

So is lightness represented anywhere in HCFR?
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post #550 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsanga View Post

Google and Wikipedia are my friends....

Thanks, Tom, you got me to do more reading.

So is lightness represented anywhere in HCFR?

It's the L in Lab or Luv raw data.

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post #551 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 06:11 PM
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Confirms what I have seen on my 46PZ80U with color management on vs off with a color bar test pattern and some outdoor scenes.
The cyan color in the test pattern noticeably changes and in some outdoor scenes the green color of grass appears to be more greenish, with less subtle color details, also sometimes a light pale blue sky in a scene will appear deeper blue with the CM on.

I haven't noticed any change to skin tones with CM off vs on, an effect on skin tones by reducing the color setting however. Using the AVIA DVD color pattern with a blue filter to calibrate color and tint, I then measured with AVIA's red push pattern and red filter and the red push at the calibrated color level was about +10%
I could reduce the red push to 5% by reducing the color level by 4 points and to 0% by reducing it by 8 points. So in my case color=53 calibrated with AVIA (Cinema/warm/CM=off) and can reduce to color=45 for reducing the red push to near zero.
Also testing with color temp = normal or cool, adds blue to everything which can appear to reduce the redness in faces a bit, but of course causes other issues. But thats expected since most TV manufacturers add the inherent red push to compensate for using cool color temp in store display situations. Too bad they don't provide a feature and change "color management" to switch the color decoding to eliminate red push when its ON for home use!
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post #552 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 06:35 PM
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Ah, got it. Thanks Tom.
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post #553 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 08:53 PM
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I've noticed that faces look better with color management ON too, as far as them being less red (50pz85u). However, it knocks the greens and blues out of whack noticeably. The maximum I can push the color to get normal looking reds is 37 on most sources, but sometimes I have to drop it to 33. This is probably the most annoying thing about my set because I can't just set it and forget it.
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post #554 of 2470 Old 06-28-2008, 11:04 PM
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I've noticed different video sources and channels/programs vary a lot and some may have their own "red push" or excessive color saturation. So even with calibration, you have to adjust the color level on the set for different material.

I just modified my 46PZ80U's internal service menu settings for sub-bright, color, and tint today so that in cinema mode/warm calibrated with AVIA DVD patterns its set for user settings all in the middle of the range: pic=50 bright=50 color=50 tint=0

After that calibration for a lot of sources/channels/program material its fine, for some others that are extra dark or have excessive color, still would have to turn down some of the settings temporarily.
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post #555 of 2470 Old 06-29-2008, 07:28 AM
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Is it normal that my Black level is grayed out when I am trying to adjust the picture while watching an OTA HD broadcast?
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post #556 of 2470 Old 06-29-2008, 07:58 AM
 
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Tom, as always, thanks for putting in the time to give us great details.
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post #557 of 2470 Old 06-29-2008, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

My measurements were taken with an HD signal and an HDMI input. Otherwise, unit-to-unit variation is all I can think of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post

Really? No one else sees a change in the reds with color management? I have a 50PZ80U, btw.

I have a 50pz80u also and I also see the facial tones being more natural with Color Mgmt being on. Maybe there ARE some additional differences between the 80 & 85 models other than what we knew before.

I do see blue being enhanced a little with CM on, but I noticed the 3 color gels with the BD version of DVE being much much closer with this on too.

Had to move my HT gear list to my profile so click below link to see it:

HT Gear list HERE
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post #558 of 2470 Old 06-29-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelyoung View Post

Is it normal that my Black level is grayed out when I am trying to adjust the picture while watching an OTA HD broadcast?

Yes since from sources like that the TV knows its an HD black level source and "Light" should be used.
The "Dark" setting is only for old SD sources that had a shifted black voltage level like from SD 480i analog channels (it should default to dark for those) and VCRs.
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post #559 of 2470 Old 06-29-2008, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post

Tom, the blue shift is very obviously seen, but how do you explain the not-so-subtle change I'm seeing in reds? Turning color management on really desaturates faces, making them look less orangy and much more natural to my eye.

The whole point of red shift in the first place was to make fleshtones look something remotely like flesh when the color temperature was set to 10,000 and higher as was and is often the case in showrooms.

I forget from previous posts how your image is affected by turing the control on and off, but I'm guessing from the gist of your post that the picture is more blue with the control on? Since that would account for reducing the objection to the red push... or maybe I missed something?

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post #560 of 2470 Old 06-29-2008, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

I forget from previous posts how your image is affected by turing the control on and off, but I'm guessing from the gist of your post that the picture is more blue with the control on? Since that would account for reducing the objection to the red push... or maybe I missed something?

There is a shift in the blue AND the reds are "desaturated" (not sure if this is the correct technical term for what I am seeing) a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post

I have a 50pz80u also and I also see the facial tones being more natural with Color Mgmt being on. Maybe there ARE some additional differences between the 80 & 85 models other than what we knew before.

Ok, glad I'm not the only one. And yeah, there are definitely differences between the 80/85 and the different screen sizes from what I'm reading here. For one, the color settings are WAY different.

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Originally Posted by JCBoomer View Post

I've noticed that faces look better with color management ON too, as far as them being less red (50pz85u). However, it knocks the greens and blues out of whack noticeably. The maximum I can push the color to get normal looking reds is 37 on most sources, but sometimes I have to drop it to 33. This is probably the most annoying thing about my set because I can't just set it and forget it.

Yes! It sounds like we are having an almost identical experience. However I run my 50pz80u color at 38 usually. Turning down to 34-35 tames the red faces, but then the rest of the picture is a touch desaturated. Makes everything look like a 70s movie. Turning color management on does the same trick on the faces, but then the blue-greens are whacky.
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post #561 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 05:36 AM
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Doesn't do anything for me, makes the greens and blues out of whack and facial tones are just as bad as ever

Be a fan of displays, not companies or technologies!
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post #562 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post

There is a shift in the blue AND the reds are "desaturated" (not sure if this is the correct technical term for what I am seeing) a bit.

With instrumentation, you'd probably find that the amount of red is the same, but there's more blue - it's a psycho-visual effect that there's less red. If the control really was increasing blue and decreasing red at the same time, that would tend to make fleshtones look more like zombie or vampire fleshtones which you aren't mentioning.

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post #563 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 07:42 AM
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The following comes from a Joel Silver, ISF, article:

Light output is measured in foot-Lamberts; as a point of reference, movie theaters when calibrated perfectly are at about 12-14 foot-Lamberts; your old tube TV set was between 20-25; plasma TVs are generally in the 40-50 foot-Lambert range; and LCDs are capable of even brighter levels, 60-70 foot-Lamberts a few years ago, but now we're seeing them as high as 120-140. Which looks marvelous in the showroom, but in your living room at night that's the visual equivalent of a sharp stick in the eye. Is it effective at selling TVs? Absolutely. But at home, not only do you not need it, it's fatiguing to your eyes and wastes a lot of energy. By setting the output back to 40-50 foot-Lamberts, not only is it easier on the eye, it can net your client a 30-60 percent energy savings. Now if daytime viewing conditions for your install are very bright, as with windows overlooking an ocean or a mountain, you may have to leave the output at something close to factory levels. But for nighttime viewing, you should use a meter to bring it back down to our recommended 40-50 foot-Lamberts, which is plenty.

I was wondering what member thoughts on correct foot-lamberts should be for a TH-46PZ85U?
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post #564 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 09:21 AM
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May I play devil's advocate and ask a few questions?

We all know (?) that good HD color, brightness and contrast settings partly depend on the light level of the viewing room. But many posters who list their settings don't mention their viewing conditions. (Murr does.) How come?

Tom, a professional calibrator, posted that he made changes in the service menu prior to making the picture adjustments that he listed. I see no harm in trying his settings without messing with the service menu, as some have done, but isn't that a bit like grabbing at straws?

Shouldn't advice for making service menu changes come with warning for the inexperienced, such as, "Don't try this at home!"?

Many contributors to this thread have used one version or another of a DVE DVD, and some have used an Avia DVD. I don't recall seeing any criticism of these DVDs.

It's a a whole other story on Amazon! The majority of buyer reviews give good marks for the sound system portions of the discs, but complain loudly about the TV settings portions. A frequent gripe is that the test patterns don't include audio instructions for how to use them. Are these complaints valid?

Not to nitpick, but I don't watch DVD movies. About 99% of my TV viewing is on Cox Cable HD and digital/SD channels. Even if a settings calibrator DVD was capable of optimizing the settings for DVD, would the same settings be appropriate for the 1080i signal sent by Cox?
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post #565 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

With instrumentation, you'd probably find that the amount of red is the same, but there's more blue - it's a psycho-visual effect that there's less red.

I definitely considered that possibility to explain what I was seeing. But, in fact, the reds are actually decreasing. I guess I might not be the only one?...
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post #566 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Horse View Post

I definitely considered that possibility to explain what I was seeing. But, in fact, the reds are actually decreasing. I guess I might not be the only one?...

I'm on my third set now. The second one did exactly as you describe, w/ color management on, the sunburnt red faces reduced by a noticeable margin. However, my new replacement set does not exibit that at all. Turning CM on only makes green more florescent and blues become darker, but nothing on the faces. But I can say for sure, my last set did exactly what you're saying yours does on the red faces. So much so, that I flew in the face of conventional wisdom and left it on, I even made a post about it awhile back.

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post #567 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimhh View Post

Not to nitpick, but I don't watch DVD movies. About 99% of my TV viewing is on Cox Cable HD and digital/SD channels. Even if a settings calibrator DVD was capable of optimizing the settings for DVD, would the same settings be appropriate for the 1080i signal sent by Cox?

Actually, most likely the settings would be appropriate, especially with an upscaling DVD player that properly converts to HD color space. Brightness might need to be set differently, but that's not terribly hard to do even without test patterns.
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post #568 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shpankey View Post

I'm on my third set now. The second one did exactly as you describe, w/ color management on, the sunburnt red faces reduced by a noticeable margin. However, my new replacement set does not exibit that at all. Turning CM on only makes green more florescent and blues become darker, but nothing on the faces. But I can say for sure, my last set did exactly what you're saying yours does on the red faces. So much so, that I flew in the face of conventional wisdom and left it on, I even made a post about it awhile back.

What model(s)?
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post #569 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Actually, most likely the settings would be appropriate, especially with an upscaling DVD player that properly converts to HD color space. Brightness might need to be set differently, but that's not terribly hard to do even without test patterns.

That was my experience. I calibrated my 46PZ80U with an upconverting DVD at 1080i output on HDMI with an AVIA DVD's test patterns for color, tint, brightness.
The settings work well for my digital/HD cable DVR output and direct cable channels from the tuner on HD channels as well. Of course there is always a little variation between different programs and channels, so the calibrated values are a good average settings and can be slightly tweaked when needed for different sources and programs, but its very close in all cases that I've had so far.
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post #570 of 2470 Old 06-30-2008, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joxer View Post

That was my experience. I calibrated my 46PZ80U with an upconverting DVD at 1080i output on HDMI with an AVIA DVD's test patterns for color, tint, brightness.
The settings work well for my digital/HD cable DVR output and direct cable channels from the tuner on HD channels as well. Of course there is always a little variation between different programs and channels, so the calibrated values are a good average settings and can be slightly tweaked when needed for different sources and programs, but its very close in all cases that I've had so far.

There's really no way to have settings that look correct for every source. The only thing you can do is to set it correctly.
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