Panasonic PZ80/PZ85 Calibration Thread (Updated first post) - Page 49 - AVS Forum
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post #1441 of 2470 Old 12-12-2008, 03:14 PM
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any recommended settings for Comcast HD channels?
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post #1442 of 2470 Old 12-12-2008, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElwayLite View Post

Well, the ISF lights are still fluor bulbs. They tried LED's, but havent had success I dont think.

Color temperature is largely irrelevant to me as the wall behind my TV is blue. I don't see what all the fuss is about when it comes to having exactly 6800K or whatever it is because the only light you see is reflected off the surrounding materials anyway, meaning unless you have a completely flat grey or white wall, it doesn't matter.

Not that you were talking about color temperature specifically, but I just had to get that out there.
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post #1443 of 2470 Old 12-13-2008, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TastyHiHatWork View Post

Color temperature is largely irrelevant to me as the wall behind my TV is blue. I don't see what all the fuss is about when it comes to having exactly 6800K or whatever it is because the only light you see is reflected off the surrounding materials anyway, meaning unless you have a completely flat grey or white wall, it doesn't matter.

Not that you were talking about color temperature specifically, but I just had to get that out there.

You said a mouthful.

I'm an avid photographer, I keep my computer monitor (Dell 2407wfp IPS panel) calibrated for color accuracy so I know a smidgen about this subject, though I won't pretend to know what the Ideal Lume people know.

That said, I'm in exactly the same position and had a rather lengthy discussion with one of the Ideal Lume fellows in a thread here several months back. I contended that if your wall color isn't neutral or balanced then color accuracy in a bias light is rather a moot point. I never did get a satisfactory answer other than "paint your wall".

I agree with you, unless your wall is neutral the color balance on the bias lighting is meaningless.

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post #1444 of 2470 Old 12-13-2008, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr. John View Post

You said a mouthful.

I'm an avid photographer, I keep my computer monitor (Dell 2407wfp IPS panel) calibrated for color accuracy so I know a smidgen about this subject, though I won't pretend to know what the Ideal Lume people know.

That said, I'm in exactly the same position and had a rather lengthy discussion with one of the Ideal Lume fellows in a thread here several months back. I contended that if your wall color isn't neutral or balanced then color accuracy in a bias light is rather a moot point. I never did get a satisfactory answer other than "paint your wall".

I agree with you, unless your wall is neutral the color balance on the bias lighting is meaningless.

Right now I just have a small lamp behind my 42pz85u with a reveal 40 W bulb against an almond/cream/offwhite wall and it looks pretty good. I do plan on getting a light I can hang soon though. Elway, where did you get yours again?

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post #1445 of 2470 Old 12-13-2008, 06:54 PM
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I'm pretty sure already because of known Comcast problems in my area. But I just want to verify that 'conspicuous grainyness' isn't a common complaint with a 42pz85u. With HD OTA mine looks very good. But just watching "Mission Impossible III" on TNTHD thru Comcast I couldn't believe how bad the grainyness was with darker scenes and fast motion. I'm strongly suspecting its just Comcast 'as usual' for their signal quality here. For civilities saKe I won't say what I 'really' think of Comcast. *lol* I'm also strongly suspecting I should buy a Blu-Ray now to check out the HDMI connectors on my set.

My Sony HD just died recently and I got the 42pz85u yesterday. Needless to say I'm comparing it to my old KV-34XBR800 Direct View and while nice the Panny isn't quite as good to my eye anyway.

Oh ya, I've already dialed down the settings like Tom's spec's show at the beginning of this thread to 'break the set in' with for the first 100+ hours.

Quick question: Since I've got Comcast and the conversion to full 16:9 HD on any channel is incomplete . . . meaning commercials are often interspersed as letter boxed 4:3's while the program is in 16:9. Those 3 minute commercials with the black bars top and or sides are irrevelent to IR during breakin no? Its only longer times in 4:3 like a full hour show or leaving a DVD cycling in a loop with its menu screen on for hours are what's meant to be avoided yes?

I'm a newbie to Plasma's but not HD. My HD OTA reception with my old set and a Panny HD OTA tuner always blew Comcast's doors off by a country mile for the same OTA channel.

Nutt
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post #1446 of 2470 Old 12-13-2008, 07:35 PM
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Disclaimer... The following has nothing to do with Tom Huffman or his calibration of this Panasonic PZ85U 50". I am simply showing screenshots he posted earier in this thread from his equipment testing a PZ85U that come close to mine in terms of the color data captured on his equipment. It is only intended to show that his data confirms or compares with mine to some extent and that is all.

My REAL reason for this post is that I think that the practice of evaluating color performance on the PZ85U using Rec 709 as a guideline might present a problem. Especially when trying to calibrate it.

I had seen shots of this Chromaticity chart at review sites as well when this TV is reviewed. They all (mine, Tom's and review sites) look the same in one major respect. The Red and Green seem WAY out from the Rec 709 standard with BLUE very close to correct. At least on the chart. Made me wonder why. Why do the measured points look visually so far off? I mean.. HEY! This is Rec 709 right?

Well I got my own software and probe and tried it myself and rendered the same overall result give or take a hair. Basically from the 2 Guides I studied for how to calibrate greyscale and color decoding, I learned how to use the ColorHCFR app with my probe. Basically set it to the correct probe and set it to calculate error and plot the recorded RGB and CYM points on the CIE (Chromaticity Chart) chart based on THE REC 709 (HDTV Standard).

Looks to me comparing his to mine and to review sites they all use software that plots the RGBCYM points onto a REC 709 chart and use the REC 709 standard to check error (aka DeltaE). Sounds logical to me. Then why do the Red and Green look so far out and why are the errors so big looking.

While you can see my chart and numbers in my attached files at the end of this post you can see his below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

The display is in Cinema mode and has had the grayscale calibrated, but is otherwise close to out-of-the-box performance.

ΔE (CIE94) Performance



CIE Chromaticity



Now. Look at the Green and Red points in his chart. The White Triangle is the Rec 709 HD color spec. The Black traingle is his from his reading overlayed on the chart to see how close to Rec 709 we get. Mine is like that to if you look at them. This looks way off.

Well. Here we are. Why is that. Someone correct me if I am headed in the wrong direction here. But check this out... This is from Tom's guide. It is some numbers he is showing for reference to proper xy coordinates of color in different specs...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

Look at Rec 709. That is what the software uses to make it's judgments...

Color Definitions

Rec. 709 (High Definition)
----x-------y--------Y
R---0.6400--0.3300---0.2126
G---0.3000--0.6000---0.7152
B---0.1500--0.0600---0.0722
Y---0.4193--0.5053---0.9278
C---0.2246--0.3287---0.7874
M---0.3209--0.1542---0.2848
W---0.3127--0.329----1.0

Digital Cinema (DCI)
----x-------y--------Y
R---0.6800--0.3200--0.2095
G---0.2650--0.6900--0.7216
B---0.1500--0.0600--0.0689
Y---0.4248--0.5476--0.9311
C---0.2048--0.3602--0.7905
M---0.3424--0.1544--0.2784
W---0.3140--0.3510--1.0

Looking at Digital Cinema above and comparing to Tom's numbers below... (but ignore the big Y number and only look at the little x and y numbers). Or even mine in my attachment which are simply out of the box default Cinema mode of the PZ85U plotted on ColorHCFR...



See a resemblance? Then I read this review of the PZ850 at HDGuru...

http://hdguru.com/panasonic-th-50pz8...st-review/249/

Specifically THIS quote...

"There are two color modes one can choose, either the HDTV broadcast color space called BT.709 (aka Rec. 709) or DCC for Digital Cinema Color. The latter is a color space standard for the Digital Cinema Initiative, which provides a wider color range at the green and red color points (and all colors that fall between)........ The DCC mode interpolates the picture data and widens the palette of colors on-screen.... Panasonic provides a more natural green, a redder red than the Pioneer. The blues are quite accurate in both plasmas. Below are the hard numbers expressed in x. y. coordinates for the Panasonic with Digital Cinema Color (DCC) ON/ DCC OFF and the industry standards for HDTV (Rec. 709) and the Digital Cinema Initiative (DCI) Standard (Panasonic calls it DCC).

DCI Stan Red x.680 y.320
Rec. 709 Red x .640 y.330

DCI Stan Green x .265 y.690
Rec. 709 Green x .300 y.600

DCI Stand Blue x.150 y.600
Rec. 709 Blue x.150 y.600

Anyone care to guess which mode on the PZ85 is the same as enabling DCI on a PZ850? Or more to the point, which mode is Panasonics DCC mode on the PZ85??? I am thinking.... Um.... Cinema perhaps? Actually this is the only mode for the PZ85. Perhaps the often refered to as "Oversaturated Red and Green" of the PZ80/PZ85 series are simply because the red and green points land on the CIE chart within the spec of the DCI colorspace set that way by Panasonic on purpose? On the PZ850 you can switch between 709 and DCI apparently. Interresting.

I am also willing to wager that the reason people see red push in faces when watching HD Broadcast signals (rec 709 right) when in cinema mode is beacuse of this very thing. Cinema mode on the PZ85U is DCI mode and perhaps not optimum for viewing HD broadcast channels which are braodcast in "Broadcast Rec 709"? Is this quote a clue...

"the HDTV broadcast color space called BT.709 (aka Rec. 709)" from that review? Are Bluerays mastered with Rec 709 in mind? Or DCI? Is Blueray Digital Cinema friendly? In Cinema mode, all blueray content I have watched is incredible on this set! Basic Digital TV in Cinema mode looks kinda shite. Why? I have a theory beyond the quote above but it has to do with STANDARD mode on the TV seems to plot RGB more accurately on the CIE chart in ColorHCFR with my probe which is a 709 based CIE chart as that is how it is set in the preferences.

OK look at my last screen shot/attachment called DCI compared to Cinema. Might be kinda hard to see but the solid Circles for RGB are basically points I manually plotted using the Digital Cinema coordinates earlier in this post. The light colored X's that are almost right on top of them are the Default Cinema Mode WARM settings for the PZ85 layed right on top as they were read by my probe. Or the Grey triangle versus the white one. Ignore the black one which is 709. It's pretty much a match.

This begs the question. How can you calibrate or simply evaluate color performance for this TV when you are comparing it to Rec 709? When it more than likely is using DCI color gamut? Do I need sofware that allows me to actually choose DCI? Instead of Rec 709 to evaluate color performance in Cinema Mode? ColorHCFR does not include DCI Gamut in the preferences. Only 601, 709 and Pal.

This result does not change for Custom either. However, as I said before... Standard on the other hand seems to plot closer to Rec 709 HD Gamut. Almost like a Hybrid of the two. Might be why it looks better for some HD or Digital TV signals. I would not use Standard for Blueray players over HDMI though. Cinema wins that catagory hands down.

Apparently this is not the only TV like this...

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/JVC_DLA-RS2.html
http://hdguru.com/panasonic-th-50pz8...st-review/249/
http://displaydaily.com/2008/09/08/b...ater-near-you/
http://www.hdforindies.com/2005/04/d...it-day-one-raw

PZ85U... simply a TV with oversaturated Green and Red? Or is this a forward thinking design and perhaps what the whole "Deep Color" specified in the literature for this TV is all about. I am no calibrator or Telecine operator and have no way of knowing what this is truely all about but I now have a better grasp of why my Red and Green points (and those of every other PZ80/85/850) are further out than the 709 color space.

C.
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LL

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post #1447 of 2470 Old 12-13-2008, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicnutt View Post

I'm pretty sure already because of known Comcast problems in my area. But I just want to verify that 'conspicuous grainyness' isn't a common complaint with a 42pz85u. With HD OTA mine looks very good. But just watching "Mission Impossible III" on TNTHD thru Comcast I couldn't believe how bad the grainyness was with darker scenes and fast motion. I'm strongly suspecting its just Comcast 'as usual' for their signal quality here. For civilities saKe I won't say what I 'really' think of Comcast. *lol* I'm also strongly suspecting I should buy a Blu-Ray now to check out the HDMI connectors on my set.

My Sony HD just died recently and I got the 42pz85u yesterday. Needless to say I'm comparing it to my old KV-34XBR800 Direct View and while nice the Panny isn't quite as good to my eye anyway.

Oh ya, I've already dialed down the settings like Tom's spec's show at the beginning of this thread to 'break the set in' with for the first 100+ hours.

Quick question: Since I've got Comcast and the conversion to full 16:9 HD on any channel is incomplete . . . meaning commercials are often interspersed as letter boxed 4:3's while the program is in 16:9. Those 3 minute commercials with the black bars top and or sides are irrevelent to IR during breakin no? Its only longer times in 4:3 like a full hour show or leaving a DVD cycling in a loop with its menu screen on for hours are what's meant to be avoided yes?

I'm a newbie to Plasma's but not HD. My HD OTA reception with my old set and a Panny HD OTA tuner always blew Comcast's doors off by a country mile for the same OTA channel.

Nutt

I've said this many times, I have no grain problems with my set. I'm not claiming its perfect but nearly so. This was a major concern to me before I bought the set, the examples I was checking at BB always looked considerably grainy compared to the Sammys. That said, after proper break-in and over 1000 hrs now I never see any grain. I certainly wouldn't judge it based on any cable feed, HD or not. And yes, you should buy a BD asap

I've been a fan of the XBR series since they came about but I'd have to say there is little chance the Panny can't match it (I can see the CRT guys rolling their eyes now). Give it some time. Remember, it's also much bigger.

As for your IR questions, you're spot on for every point.

Cheers.

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post #1448 of 2470 Old 12-13-2008, 10:55 PM
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Fr. John,

Thanks for the reply. Do you really notice a difference in PQ with Plasma's 'as they break in' over time? This is my first plasma coming from a direct view.

I had been playing with 'sharpness' settings. It may have been I had that set too low just trying out the extremes of the settings. Once I boosted that up again the grainyness seemed to disappear. At least in 'Aeonflux' (on TNTHD also after MI III) where the PQ was 'much much better.'

Ya, I thinkin' BD too. If I wasn't going to a 'Jars Of Clay' Christmas show tomorrow night I'd grab one tomorrow. BTW, they have an awesome Christmas CD out. I wonder if they'll come out with a Blu-Ray of that?

Ok, gotta have a blu-ray disc to audition a player with. Something cutesy like 'Wall-e' or something else as a demo? Any suggestions where to start? I don't have surround sound so audio isn't a concern. I'm in a condo anyway so big booms and bangs aren't a good thing anyway unless I want to annoy the neighbors which I don't.

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post #1449 of 2470 Old 12-14-2008, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicnutt View Post

Fr. John,

Thanks for the reply. Do you really notice a difference in PQ with Plasma's 'as they break in' over time? This is my first plasma coming from a direct view.

I had been playing with 'sharpness' settings. It may have been I had that set too low just trying out the extremes of the settings. Once I boosted that up again the grainyness seemed to disappear. At least in 'Aeonflux' (on TNTHD also after MI III) where the PQ was 'much much better.'

Ya, I thinkin' BD too. If I wasn't going to a 'Jars Of Clay' Christmas show tomorrow night I'd grab one tomorrow. BTW, they have an awesome Christmas CD out. I wonder if they'll come out with a Blu-Ray of that?

Ok, gotta have a blu-ray disc to audition a player with. Something cutesy like 'Wall-e' or something else as a demo? Any suggestions where to start? I don't have surround sound so audio isn't a concern. I'm in a condo anyway so big booms and bangs aren't a good thing anyway unless I want to annoy the neighbors which I don't.

Nutt <><

No doubt about the improvement. I've stated many times here that after 300 hrs or so my picture improved, It is now nearly flawless 90% of time (depends on the source). On a pristine source I have zero complaints.

Not familiar with the Jars of Clay.

Literally ANY Pixar stuff is simply stunning. Non animation my vote goes to much of the Planet Earth stuff.

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post #1450 of 2470 Old 12-14-2008, 12:56 PM
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cvearl, I don't have an answer since I don't have any calibration tools or experience, but that is a very nice and thoughtful post. Interesting observations, there.
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post #1451 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 06:04 AM
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We went to the trouble of setting the Pioneer 4360 up beside the Panny Z85 to confirm our suspicions. It was absolute consensus that the Pio was definitely superior in blacks, colour depth, clarity, and overall PQ. I went back to the store I bought it from and did another round of comparisons. I saw the same lower level of performance there as well. It is packed up and being exchanged for a Samsung LN52A750 LCD. I agonised between that and the Pio 5020 for well over an hour. Being a plasma fanatic, I was shocked and blown away by the PQ of the Samsung. Because they couldn't assure me a delivery date for the Pioneer I decided on the LCD. If it doesn't meet our expectations we will exchange it for the Pioneer, whenever that becomes available. It seems the only real complaints about the Samsung relate to the bezel. If that isn't a concern it is likely to stay. User and expert opinions are in absolute agreement that it is one of the finest pictures available. I can't argue that at all. It was immediately adjacent the Z85 and had a clearly superior PQ (though is more money as well).
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post #1452 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 07:01 AM
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I'd have considered a Samsung if their plasmas in my price range weren't 60hz vs. Panny's 480hz. I noticed considerable motion blur on the Sammys vs. the z85.
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post #1453 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubasteve2 View Post

I'd have considered a Samsung if their plasmas in my price range weren't 60hz vs. Panny's 480hz. I noticed considerable motion blur on the Sammys vs. the z85.

The guy above you is looking at Samsungs LCD. Not sure why he is posting here though. Yay for him.

Comparing a $3000 TV to a $2000 TV in an owners/calibration thread ($2000 TV) is irrelevant IMO. Then saying something obvious like the PQ is better on the TV that cost 33% more so I am getting that instead comes across to me as chest thumping and pompousness.

It's like going into a Pro Tuned Corvette Owners thread and saying... Ya. I always drive Lamborghini. Thought I would try one of these here Corvettes. Drove it for a week. Nah. Went back to Lamborgini... Waaaayyyy better car.

Good for you. Here's a cookie!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I gotta head over to the Samsung Series 4 LCD owners thread and tell them why my TV is waaay more better'n theirs.

C.

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post #1454 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrain View Post

...It is packed up and being exchanged for a Samsung LN52A750 LCD.....It was immediately adjacent the Z85 and had a clearly superior PQ (though is more money as well).

The fact that youve now gone from a Plasma to an LCD pretty much shoots your credibility on your 4 yr. old pio vs new Panny comparison. Sorry. I've not seen any LCDs that can touch my 85u.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cvearl View Post

The guy above you is looking at Samsungs LCD. Not sure why he is posting here though. Yay for him....
C.

I have to agree with C, why are you posting this info in an owners thread. Really only comes across as trolling.

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post #1455 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvearl View Post

The guy above you is looking at Samsungs LCD. Not sure why he is posting here though. Yay for him.

Comparing a $3000 TV to a $2000 TV in an owners/calibration thread ($2000 TV) is irrelevant IMO. Then saying something obvious like the PQ is better on the TV that cost 33% more so I am getting that instead comes across to me as chest thumping and pompousness.

It's like going into a Pro Tuned Corvette Owners thread and saying... Ya. I always drive Lamborghini. Thought I would try one of these here Corvettes. Drove it for a week. Nah. Went back to Lamborgini... Waaaayyyy better car.

Good for you. Here's a cookie!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I gotta head over to the Samsung Series 4 LCD owners thread and tell them why my TV is waaay more better'n theirs.

C.

Love the Corvette to Lamborghini comparison. I mean trust me, if I could afford it right now I'd have a 50" Pioneer on my stand instead my 42pz85u. The Panny will be good for now, until I'm done with school working and the Kuro comes a calling.

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post #1456 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvearl View Post

The guy above you is looking at Samsungs LCD. Not sure why he is posting here though. Yay for him.

Comparing a $3000 TV to a $2000 TV in an owners/calibration thread ($2000 TV) is irrelevant IMO. Then saying something obvious like the PQ is better on the TV that cost 33% more so I am getting that instead comes across to me as chest thumping and pompousness.

It's like going into a Pro Tuned Corvette Owners thread and saying... Ya. I always drive Lamborghini. Thought I would try one of these here Corvettes. Drove it for a week. Nah. Went back to Lamborgini... Waaaayyyy better car.

Good for you. Here's a cookie!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I gotta head over to the Samsung Series 4 LCD owners thread and tell them why my TV is waaay more better'n theirs.

C.

Your sarcasm is a little misplaced. I have owned a Pio plasma for three years and expected a new Panasonic to at least be close. That Panasonic in question is the subject matter of this very thread. It was purchased and set up, and is being sent back because the PQ is not as excellent as I expected it to be. During the process I discovered the Samsung LCD - a technology that two weeks ago I wouldn't even have considered, being so pleased with the Pioneer plasma that I have admired for the past three years. If the 5020 version of the new Pio product was available yesterday with a known delivery date, chances are good it would have gotten the nod over the LCD. In the end we are all after the very best PQ that is within our budgets. Some may still argue that CRT technology is still supreme, and I am ok with that. Truth be told, I sense a little insecurity in your post. After carefully comparing the Panny Z85 with the Pio 4360 I own, and with the new 5020 and Samsung 7 Series LCD, I'd probably be feeling a little insecure if I was stuck with it too, lol. To each their own. If it's everything you think a set should be, all the power to you. Just try to keep your mind a little more open. If you get a chance to have a close look at the Samsung I'd highly recommend it. If that's not a good starting point then read some of the more prominent expert reviews of the product. It really is an exceptional TV. BTW, if you do head over to another thread every so often you may find you're better able to expand your horizons a bit, and less likely to be overly insecure/defensive.

PS I never saw the Panasonic Z85 as being a vastly inferior or even different class of product to the Pio 4360 at all. That's why I bought it, so your weak analogy to Lamborghini's and Corvettes is out to lunch. Obviously others (owners of very same Panny) agree with that at face value because two expressed genuine surprise that a three-year old Pioneer could be clearly superior. The fact that an LCD also trumps it must be really tough to accept. There's no "chest thumping" going on here at all. Just genuine disappointment in what I expected to be a better product. Period. If that exposes your own lack of self-esteem then seek help, lol. For the record, the Pio 5020 was quoted at $700 more than I paid for the Panny Z85. Sorry, that's hardly a Corvette/Lamborghini type of spread, now is it? The Samsung was quoted at only $250 more than the Panasonic. That's peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Correct my math if it's as weak as your analogies, but I reckon that's in the vicinity of 10%.
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post #1457 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 06:37 PM
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The fact that youve now gone from a Plasma to an LCD pretty much shoots your credibility on your 4 yr. old pio vs new Panny comparison. Sorry. I've not seen any LCDs that can touch my 85u.



I have to agree with C, why are you posting this info in an owners thread. Really only comes across as trolling.

More insecurity exposed. "Trolling"??? I spent a long time looking at the LCD product, and it wasn't even on my radar when I set out to buy a new set. I am a certified plasma fanatic. Can't touch the 85U? Are you kidding me? That particular LCD is an outstanding set, and no-one was more surprised about that than me. Don't believe it, then check out the pro reviews (PCMag, Audioholics, etc, etc). I expected a lot more from the Panasonic and it didn't deliver, that simple. We honestly brought it home and expected it would be the last HDTV we'd buy for several years. It didn't work out that way and there's no need for you and your cronies to get your backs up over it. Incidentally, I have read all manner of criticism by owners (which I was until yesterday, so had every right to post in this thread) in every dedicated thread on this forum. Seems some people are secure enough to recognise and accept the unique weaknesses that their brand and type of TV carry, and some are not. You guys are showing which side of the fence you fall on.

BTW, I haven't "gone" from plasma to LCD at all. The Pioneer plasma we currently own will occupy a very prominent role in our family room for many, many years to come. If we do keep the Samsung LCD and it returns a PQ reasonably close to the Pioneer we will be more than happy with both. If it isn't up to snuff it will go back and we will wait for the Pio 5020.
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post #1458 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 06:42 PM
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Love the Corvette to Lamborghini comparison. I mean trust me, if I could afford it right now I'd have a 50" Pioneer on my stand instead my 42pz85u. The Panny will be good for now, until I'm done with school working and the Kuro comes a calling.

If you were quoted $2700 for the Pio 50" and $2000 for the Panny 50" would it seem like a totally unfair comparison? Hardly, and that's why the Lamborghini/Corvette analogy is nonsense. Besides, we're not comparing a 42" Panasonic with a 50" Pioneer. That would hardly make sense in terms of $$$.
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post #1459 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 07:27 PM
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Put down your bo and luke and your jesse and daisy. You're wasting valuable bits and bytes with your bickering... let's get back to calibration
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post #1460 of 2470 Old 12-15-2008, 08:03 PM
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Well I'm not going to lie and I'll say the pz85u is not quite what I thought it would be, but I guess for $1000 I really shouldn't have expected it to be as great as everyone said. A $1000 lcd surely would not match up.

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post #1461 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 03:55 AM
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Put down your bo and luke and your jesse and daisy. You're wasting valuable bits and bytes with your bickering... let's get back to calibration

With that I completely agree, cpc. And furthermore, I wish everyone who has the Z85 all the success and enjoyment in the world - including the two highly defensive owners. My initial post was a means to understand if we may have a defective set because the noise levels, artifacting, and general lack of clarity were surprising given our expectation level of the product. It was not an inexpensive set and I wanted feedback on those issues to know if it needed to go back for replacement. I have since scrutinised two more, with the same unfortunate conclusion. My wife was adamant that it was a significantly inferior PQ and our best means of assessing that was to haul the Pio 4360 back downstairs and set it up side-by-side. Those suspicions were easily confirmed and to reiterate - that's not what we wanted at all. Who needs the hassle of repacking and returning a product like that? To say nothing of going back to the drawing board to find something better, reasonably close to the price point. We're moving on to try something else, that's all, and your civilised input on the matter has been greatly appreciated.
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post #1462 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

Well I'm not going to lie and I'll say the pz85u is not quite what I thought it would be, but I guess for $1000 I really shouldn't have expected it to be as great as everyone said. A $1000 lcd surely would not match up.

You got yourself a hell of a buy. I seriously doubt there is an LCD made that could even approach it for that kind of coin.
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post #1463 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

Well I'm not going to lie and I'll say the pz85u is not quite what I thought it would be, but I guess for $1000 I really shouldn't have expected it to be as great as everyone said. A $1000 lcd surely would not match up.

Please folks...no price talk. This is not a price thread.

Thanks!

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post #1464 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by scubasteve2 View Post

I'd have considered a Samsung if their plasmas in my price range weren't 60hz vs. Panny's 480hz. I noticed considerable motion blur on the Sammys vs. the z85.

The 480hz number is Panasonic marketing to compete with 120hz LCDs.

Read the posts in the links below, they should answer any questions that you have.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14249254

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post13454686

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post #1465 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 09:45 AM
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We went to the trouble of setting the Pioneer 4360 up beside the Panny Z85 to confirm our suspicions. It was absolute consensus that the Pio was definitely superior in blacks, colour depth, clarity, and overall PQ. I went back to the store I bought it from and did another round of comparisons. I saw the same lower level of performance there as well. It is packed up and being exchanged for a Samsung LN52A750 LCD. I agonised between that and the Pio 5020 for well over an hour. Being a plasma fanatic, I was shocked and blown away by the PQ of the Samsung. Because they couldn't assure me a delivery date for the Pioneer I decided on the LCD. If it doesn't meet our expectations we will exchange it for the Pioneer, whenever that becomes available. It seems the only real complaints about the Samsung relate to the bezel. If that isn't a concern it is likely to stay. User and expert opinions are in absolute agreement that it is one of the finest pictures available. I can't argue that at all. It was immediately adjacent the Z85 and had a clearly superior PQ (though is more money as well).


I'm sorry, but the 4360 cannot have a lower black level.....the 85u has almost as low of a level as the 8g Elites in my own personal experience.
The 750 is a nice display, but clearly superior I would disagree with.
Wait until the off-axiz performance, clouding, flashlighting and sample and hold take effect when you get it home.
Best of luck though and enjoy.
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post #1466 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

I'm sorry, but the 4360 cannot have a lower black level.....the 85u has almost as low of a level as the 8g Elites in my own personal experience.
The 750 is a nice display, but clearly superior I would disagree with.
Wait until the off-axiz performance, clouding, flashlighting and sample and hold take effect when you get it home.
Best of luck though and enjoy.

I can only report what we have seen. There were no measurements taken with instrumentation. The biggest issues for us were noise (noted by several expert reviewers as well, so we're not nuts) and lack of detail/clarity. Comparisons of the new 5020 immediately beside an 800U (only difference with Z85 is THX?) showed the same thing. I'm not sure what else to say other than that the 4360 definitely has a superior PQ. When the sets are off the Panny looks greenish, the 4360 jet black. That may be a contributing factor as well. I have no axe to grind with Panasonics at all. As for the Samsung you may well be right. The issues you identified as plaguing many LCD's were in my mind before I even started looking, but it seemed based on many reviews that much of it has been addressed. You're right of course. Just like the Z85 the acid test is taking something home and living with it. I am getting conflicting reports about the short-term availability of the Pio 5020 - supposedly there are now 7 in stock at the Toronto warehouse according to another store in the chain, so I am back to my original choice and will make the switch back to the plasma. There are too many horror stories circulating about the bezels on the 750 LCD's, overshadowing what seems to be a consensus outstanding PQ.
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post #1467 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Terrain View Post

I can only report what we have seen. There were no measurements taken with instrumentation. The biggest issues for us were noise (noted by several expert reviewers as well, so we're not nuts) and lack of detail/clarity. Comparisons of the new 5020 immediately beside an 800U (only difference with Z85 is THX?) showed the same thing. I'm not sure what else to say other than that the 4360 definitely has a superior PQ. When the sets are off the Panny looks greenish, the 4360 jet black. That may be a contributing factor as well. I have no axe to grind with Panasonics at all. As for the Samsung you may well be right. The issues you identified as plaguing many LCD's were in my mind before I even started looking, but it seemed based on many reviews that much of it has been addressed. You're right of course. Just like the Z85 the acid test is taking something home and living with it. I am getting conflicting reports about the short-term availability of the Pio 5020 - supposedly there are now 7 in stock at the Toronto warehouse according to another store in the chain, so I am back to my original choice and will make the switch back to the plasma. There are too many horror stories circulating about the bezels on the 750 LCD's, overshadowing what seems to be a consensus outstanding PQ.

I didn't consider my last response "highly defensive" but I'll reiterate again, this doesn't seem like the place for this discussion. It is afterall a PZ80/85 calibration thread.

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post #1468 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 12:30 PM
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I didn't consider my last response "highly defensive" but I'll reiterate again, this doesn't seem like the place for this discussion. It is afterall a PZ80/85 calibration thread.

Your last post was at minimum antagonistic. "Trolling" is a very strong word and completely untrue (and out of character) - to say nothing of being totally unrelated to the topic of "calibration".

Would every post of yours on this thread be strictly related to calibration? At this point the answer is an emphatic NO.

BTW, every issue I have noted about the Panasonic is echoed in one form or another by several expert reviewers. The information is out there for all to see and it validates our own experience. If that bothers you as an owner there isn't a whole lot I can do or say. Our brief fling with the Z85 is over and you can rest assured I will move along to another owner's thread. Or, as was the case after buying the Pio 4360 three years, I may simply be so absorbed that I will vanish into my home theatre room instead and enjoy what it's really all about.
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post #1469 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 03:10 PM
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Anyone here know an easy way to exit the Service Menu on the PZ85? Rather than actually Resetting the TV every time?

I ask because when I do Greyscale runs with my probe, I have to NOT be in the service menu mode because the readings are different when I am in there. For whatever reason.

C.

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post #1470 of 2470 Old 12-16-2008, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Terrain View Post

If you were quoted $2700 for the Pio 50" and $2000 for the Panny 50" would it seem like a totally unfair comparison? Hardly, and that's why the Lamborghini/Corvette analogy is nonsense. Besides, we're not comparing a 42" Panasonic with a 50" Pioneer. That would hardly make sense in terms of $$$.

Hell no, I would take the Pio in a heartbeat. I got my 42pz85u for $985 and if I could've got a 42" Pio for 1400, I would've taken it.

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