Wow...The LCD Forums Can Make A Guy Paranoid About NOT Buying A Plasma - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm getting a REALLY itchy trigger finger while waiting on the 50PZ800U. And this is even while considering that I snagged it when Big River was taking pre-orders with free white-glove shipping and a price several hundred dollars below MSRP.

While trying to cope with my jitters, I've started looking at LCDs again. I've seen the prices on the Sony and Samsung 52" 120Hz sets drop like rocks. You can currently get a near top-of-the-line Samsung LN52A650 for less than an 50PZ800U.

But every damned LCD thread I enter has people complaining about:

smearing
stuttering
flashlighting
clouding
sets turning themselves on/off randomly
inputs dropping their signals
dropped signals
purple tinge to the black levels
AMP issues
triple ball effect

I realize that in the LCD forums people are more critical about their sets than in the plasma area. I also understand that dissatisfied customers will always be more vocal. But with so many varying issues I'm surprised more people aren't purchasing or considering Plasmas. Usually, the only common complaints seen in this forum are green ghosting or slight image retention issues. I'm certainly not saying that LCDs are inferior. I've seen numerous beautiful LCD displays, and I'll be the first to say that I don't think any plasma can easily match the image of an XBR set if you manage to get one without any significant problems.

But the list of possible issues, even excluding the possibility of dead or stuck pixels, seems significantly higher on an LCD.

I can't help but think that the main reason there are fewer people buying plasmas is due to misinformation about image retention and power consumption. From personal experience at Best Buy, more than one associate has warned me about the "dangers" of burn-in coupled with plasma using 3 times as much electricity as an LCD. If I had not already done my research that alone would probably have turned me off of plasma.

Anyway, just a quick observation. I may turn out to be a hypocrite and still get an LCD if Panasonic pushes the 800U release date out even further. But every time I venture back into the LCD forum I get severely paranoid about what the hell would show up at my doorstep in that thin brown box.
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post #2 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 01:41 PM
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You are on the right track. You listed like 10 common defects of LCD's, but could only think of 2 for plasma (and the green smearing is only on certain Panny sets from what I hear). IR is much less of a problem thees days than it used to be.

But about you saying no plasma can touch an XBR? Seriously, cmon. Have you never seen a Pioneer plasma?

Plasmas don't use 3 times as much electricity. They barely use more at all. Here is a link for you.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-3.html

The TV's on there are last years models, but it is still a good general indicator. For example, a 52" Sony XBR will cost you $95 a year in electricity, Whereas a Pioneer 5080 will run you up a $116 dollar a year electricity bill. Thats 2 bucks a month basically. If you decide not to buy a plasma cuz you cant afford the extra 2 bucks a month, then you probably shouldn't be buying a TV in the 1st place.

Anyways, I would recommend trying to find a Pioneer 5080 (if you can still find one) or even waiting for the 5090, as both of those easily outclass any LCD (or plasma).

You were right about one more thing. The reason that LCD outsells plasma is because of the mis-information that has been spread about plasma the last few years (mostly by LCD owners themselves).
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post #3 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 01:45 PM
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Tough it out! The TH-50PZ800U will be here soon. Do want great motion resolution plasma has or the blurry mess that is LCD? Do want deep black in dark scenes or the gray haze that is LCD? Do you want a great picture no matter where you sit in the room? Do you wa...........catch my drift

Patience has its rewards.
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post #4 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 01:59 PM
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A couple of years ago, I bought the best LCD tv available locally- the Sony XBR. I sold it, and I'm using a basic LG plasma set in my bedroom now. Guess which one I like more? Yeah, the cheapo LG plasma, over the flagship Sony LCD. More lifelike colors, more depth and better contrast. You can't beat plasma for a flatscreen.
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post #5 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 02:26 PM
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Another con of LCD in the 40"+ range: price

I was at the store the other day and it seems that the bottom tier 40" LCDs from the name brands are about a good $300-$400 more than the name brand, bottom-tier 42" plasmas.
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post #6 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerfan View Post

A couple of years ago, I bought the best LCD tv available locally- the Sony XBR. I sold it, and I'm using a basic LG plasma set in my bedroom now. Guess which one I like more? Yeah, the cheapo LG plasma, over the flagship Sony LCD. More lifelike colors, more depth and better contrast. You can't beat plasma for a flatscreen.

I recently had the Sony KDL52XBR4 and the Samsung LNT5271F. I found (as well as most) that these two LCD's were far superior in PQ to any LG.
I would give the win of LCD's to the SONY hands down (as well as CNET in their "whats the best 1080p LCD" article.)
I was sold on the Sony and thought it was the best TV out there.
That is, until I went to best buy and watched a pioneer Kuro 5010 for about an hour. When I got home I started noticing ghosting.clouding,smearing,bad viewing angles,etc a whole lot more.
So I sold the XBR4 to a lady at work and went and bought a pioneer kuro 5080.
The 5080 beats the XBR4 in just about evey categorie with the exception of color accuracy and judder reduction. But the 5080 does great with both also. The Kuro's show a "3D like" image that really stands out and really do great with motion.
The big amazement for me was when I first saw a standard cable signal on the Pioneer kuro 5080. It looks absolutly wonderful compared to the XBR4.
I could never watch Standard on the XBR4, it just looks awful.
And when I first put a regular DVD in my playstation3 and saw it on the 5080 it almost looked like HD. I mean it looks wonderful.
And bluray looks absolutly stunning!
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post #7 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by lazerfan View Post

You can't beat plasma for a flatscreen.

Sure you can. As soon as you use it for anything else but watching movies in a darkened room.
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post #8 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 04:37 PM
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Well, I'm on my third LCD in 6 months. I returned the first two (both Philips that I bought at Costco) and am about to return the third (52" Sony KDL-52WL135).

The picture quality on the Sony is amazing... when there is nothing moving! During action scenes, the pixelation around the moving objects ranges from annoying to downright appalling. Completely unacceptable for a $3000 TV.

I'm ready to make the switch to plasma.
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post #9 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 04:38 PM
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Ehh, besides the better PQ on plasma, you have to forget LCD if you want anything more than 52" anyhow.

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post #10 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 05:17 PM
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I almost bought into the "anti-plasma" talk. But after several trips to multiple stores to look at panels I formed the opinion that the plasmas simply looked better. Better blacks... better handling of fast motion... better price. Then I read that there are alot of myths and urban legends running around about plasmas that are being touted as "fact." Hence, I got a Panasonic TH-50PX75U about two weeks ago and I'm thrilled with it. Granted, plasmas need to be broken in (but so does a new car) and you can't abuse them with hours of static images. But I consider that a small price to pay for the superior PQ.

And in response to the previous comment about plasmas only being good for watching movies in a "darkened" room... I call shennanigans! We have our plasma in a well lit room. The panel is plenty bright and easy to see day or night (even with the initial "dialed down" settings I've been using).

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post #11 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeelo58 View Post

You are on the right track. You listed like 10 common defects of LCD's, but could only think of 2 for plasma (and the green smearing is only on certain Panny sets from what I hear). IR is much less of a problem thees days than it used to be.

But about you saying no plasma can touch an XBR? Seriously, cmon. Have you never seen a Pioneer plasma?

Plasmas don't use 3 times as much electricity. They barely use more at all. Here is a link for you.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-3.html

The TV's on there are last years models, but it is still a good general indicator. For example, a 52" Sony XBR will cost you $95 a year in electricity, Whereas a Pioneer 5080 will run you up a $116 dollar a year electricity bill. Thats 2 bucks a month basically. If you decide not to buy a plasma cuz you cant afford the extra 2 bucks a month, then you probably shouldn't be buying a TV in the 1st place.

Anyways, I would recommend trying to find a Pioneer 5080 (if you can still find one) or even waiting for the 5090, as both of those easily outclass any LCD (or plasma).

You were right about one more thing. The reason that LCD outsells plasma is because of the mis-information that has been spread about plasma the last few years (mostly by LCD owners themselves).

I definitely understand that plasmas consume only slightly more power than equal sized LCD. But I've overheard numerous "informed" associates at places like Best Buy and Circuit City talk about their massive power draw. In fact, at my local Best Buy the 50PZ85U is displayed by itself in one of those little makeshift rooms. I overheard a sales associate telling an elderly couple that the Panasonic consumes around 600 watts. Needless to say, the couple walked out with a Samsung 5271F.

I'm curious how often this same scenario repeats itself across the country.
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post #12 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteRising View Post

I don't think any plasma can easily match the image of an XBR set if you manage to get one without any significant problems.

Well I'd have to strongly disagree. I've not seen ANY XBR match the quality of PQ on any of the Panasonic -700/-750 series or the Pioneer KURO series.

I do find the SXRD XBR sets have a much better looking picture than the LCD XBR sets though.
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post #13 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteRising View Post

I've overheard numerous "informed" associates at places like Best Buy and Circuit City talk about their massive power draw.

I rarely meet these associates, normally I only hear people who don't really know what they're talking about in Best Buy and Circuit City.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteRising View Post

I overheard a sales associate telling an elderly couple that the Panasonic consumes around 600 watts. Needless to say, the couple walked out with a Samsung 5271F.

Perhaps they wanted to display a 100% white signal at full brightness and use their new TV as a floodlight in the kitchen? In which case, I guess they picked the right set.

In anything that could be considered normal viewing conditions its much more a case of 6 and half a dozen...and the upcoming plasma's are looking to consume only 50% maximum of what the current models do.
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post #14 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanteRising View Post

I definitely understand that plasmas consume only slightly more power than equal sized LCD. But I've overheard numerous "informed" associates at places like Best Buy and Circuit City talk about their massive power draw. In fact, at my local Best Buy the 50PZ85U is displayed by itself in one of those little makeshift rooms. I overheard a sales associate telling an elderly couple that the Panasonic consumes around 600 watts. Needless to say, the couple walked out with a Samsung 5271F.

I'm curious how often this same scenario repeats itself across the country.

See this is the case of the sales guy being misinformed and trying to make Plasmas sound evil. At a 100% white screen yes the Plasma will use 600 watts, while the LCD 300 watts

Normal viewing conditions Plasmas much closer then that to LCDs.
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post #15 of 133 Old 04-20-2008, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by skeelo58 View Post

Anyways, I would recommend trying to find a Pioneer 5080 (if you can still find one) or even waiting for the 5090, as both of those easily outclass any LCD (or plasma).

Am I crazy or did anyone else catch this. 5090 would be a 9th gen Pioneer 50" 720p set right? Pioneer is only making 1080p plasmas next year. I'm pretty sure there will be no 5090.
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post #16 of 133 Old 04-21-2008, 06:30 PM
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You may be correct. I dont know if Pioneer has released the full details of their 2008 lineup yet (I may be mistaken) I was just using sequential order when I suggested the 5090 (as it would come after the 5080 :P)

Anyways, my point was that any Pioneer will beat any other TV on the market
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post #17 of 133 Old 04-21-2008, 06:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Peejay926 View Post

Am I crazy or did anyone else catch this. 5090 would be a 9th gen Pioneer 50" 720p set right? Pioneer is only making 1080p plasmas next year. I'm pretty sure there will be no 5090.

You are correct.
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post #18 of 133 Old 04-21-2008, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by skeelo58 View Post

You may be correct. I dont know if Pioneer has released the full details of their 2008 lineup yet (I may be mistaken) I was just using sequential order when I suggested the 5090 (as it would come after the 5080 :P)

Anyways, my point was that any Pioneer will beat any other TV on the market

I believe the 5090 does/will exist as that is the model number that will be sold in Europe. In the states, it will be the 5020, which I think is about the same set, but with a few Euro-only features stripped from it.
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post #19 of 133 Old 04-21-2008, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerfan View Post

You can't beat plasma for a flatscreen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Karamba676 View Post

Sure you can. As soon as you use it for anything else but watching movies in a darkened room.

You must have never owned one of todays top-of-the-line plasma's.
Thats the only reason I can think that someone would make such an uneducated statement.
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post #20 of 133 Old 04-21-2008, 09:38 PM
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For HDTV's, I went from CRT (Sony XBR) to LCD to Plasma. They all are great TV's!

However, I've been spoiled big time by the PQ/Size of the plasma. Yeah, the
LCD is brighter (often excessive), but I find the PQ at large sizes in LCDs aren't
as nice and the viewing angle really limits your sitting position big time! I love
to lounge around sideways on the couch and watch TV, but I just couldn't do
it with the LCD due to the viewing angle. Meanwhile, on the plasma, the glare
can be a bit of an issue and the greenish phosphor does somewhat show itself
in dark/black scenes during the day. It's one of the reasons why they look dim
during the day, as the perceived contrast isn't as high (as opposed to when the
blinds are closed). When it comes to best possible PQ between the 2 types of TVs,
the plasma is the winner hands down.

By the way, I own a Wii, PS3, and a 360 and I don't have any burn-in on
my Pioneer (60 inch 8G Kuro Elite). I even picked up a 42 inch pioneer and
have been playing on it. The wii, in particular, is rough on a plasma since
it often doesn't fill the whole screen, and the classic games like 2D mario and
such have a lot of static images/objects/mushrooms that sit on the screen
for a long period of time. Admittingly, I am still skeptical of the possibilities
of temporary image retention, so I refrain from static stuff on the screen
when I can, and I often turn off the TV when I leave the room for a long
period of time. Yet, I hook my laptop up to the thing all the time, have the
start menu sitting there for hours, and hack around on the machine.

Most of the fears or crap stories are exaggerated, but I won't outright say
they are not warranted to a lesser degree. Plasmas are great, but you can't
abuse them nearly as much as an LCD. They also have great whites, but
screen content is susceptible to the peak-limiter, thus content that fills
draws too much power from the TV will diminish the overall TV brightness
(both colours and whites) which often result in drowned out colours or floaty
whites.

One thing I find interesting (and always comment on) is how the notion of
light coming from the source content (ie: plasma) is far more appealing than
light coming from behind the source content (ie: LCD). It just gives the content
an overall depth and richness, especially when viewing off-angle.
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post #21 of 133 Old 04-21-2008, 09:52 PM
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I've got TVs on both sides of the fence for LCD and Plasma and in varying forms of technology. I have a 32" LCD flatpanel, my fiance has a 27" LCD flatpanel. I've got a 42" LCD rear projection. I have an LCD front projector. I have a 50" plasma. I have a 30" CRT, and a 27" CRT.

It seems the speed of manufacturing has made some of the problems with LCDs worse. Neither of the flatpanel ones I have used has flashlighting problems, clouding problems or almost any of the related. Black levels are a bit weak, but not terribly so.

The rear projection LCD is much much better (Sony in this case). It has almost none of the drawbacks of the flatpanel. Deeper blacks, better motion response.

The front projector is a mixed bag. You get a massive screen, but how it performs is related to the screen among other things. Black levels are OK at best but it is now an aged model and could be bested with newer ones.

The Plasma has much better contrast ratio than the LCD, in most cases it is much better and many of the problems are unfounded rumors at best, they might have been a problem a few years ago but don't seem to be an issue now.

The CRTs are the definition of proper black levels and motion response but the resolution isn't quite up there, still however if you had something like a super fine pitch Trinitron you'd be hard pressed to best the picture with most LCDs, though some plasmas are much closer.
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post #22 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

Tough it out! The TH-50PZ800U will be here soon. Do want great motion resolution plasma has or the blurry mess that is LCD? Do want deep black in dark scenes or the gray haze that is LCD? Do you want a great picture no matter where you sit in the room? Do you wa...........catch my drift


You know the same amount of criticism can be said about Plasma panels.

Noisey picture due to the PWM noise, green/yellow lag in fast scenes & of course you would have a hard time watching the TV with windows open.

Every single display type have their flaws that can make it unwatchable to some.
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post #23 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 06:22 AM
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I watch my plasma with the curtains open all the time, and there isn't even any glare/reflections. Personally I think that I can only see a reflection on my plasma when its an all black screen. When there is actually something on, there isn't any reflection at all.

Also, there is very few models (can only think of current Panny models) that have any noticeable "green/yellow" lag. And you wanna talk about noisy picture? Puh-lease. LCD is the definition of noisy picture.
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post #24 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 06:32 AM
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I don't know if this makes sense. I found the overall picture quality of my PZ85u to be better then any LCD I've owned. However, my LCDs were slightly sharper and gave it a more HD look where as the Plasma is softer. That said LCD problems outweight Plasma by far currently. Plus when you're buying a Plasma you probably aren't the person to care if it costs you $45 a year to run it or $100.

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post #25 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 08:10 AM
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I sometimes wonder if the mark up on LCD's aren't bigger than plasmas. It does seem like a lot of sales people in the B&M's push them. It just like pushing the monster cables. Maybe they make more money off of an LCD. I was talking to this one kid of a sales person, and I had to keep telling him that I like the PQ of the plasma better. I know that they are turned up at the stores, but the colors don't look natural to me. I even have a friend that says he likes that look. I believe that a good TV should be like a good pair of speakers. It or they should not add or take away anything. Good speakers should recreate the orginal sound as close as possible. A good tv should recreate the orginal image as close as possible. Just my 2 cents.

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post #26 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty4ut View Post

I sometimes wonder if the mark up on LCD's aren't bigger than plasmas. It does seem like a lot of sales people in the B&M's push them. It just like pushing the monster cables. Maybe they make more money off of an LCD. I was talking to this one kid of a sales person, and I had to keep telling him that I like the PQ of the plasma better. I know that they are turned up at the stores, but the colors don't look natural to me. I even have a friend that says he likes that look. I believe that a good TV should be like a good pair of speakers. It or they should not add or take away anything. Good speakers should recreate the orginal sound as close as possible. A good tv should recreate the orginal image as close as possible. Just my 2 cents.

The main reason is because the margins are slightly better than plasmas. Also the "brightness effect" appeals more to individuals that walk into a showroom. With these two being the main appeal for B&M stores to sell they will always be 1 leg up over plasma. For us as plasma owners it makes me want to cringe when I hear them talk...

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post #27 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 04:07 PM
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You hit the nail on the head. That IS the reason more Plasmas don't sell. Bad information. I do rep work for Panasonic Plasma and I spend alot of my time in the stores squashing old myths about Plasma. You wouldn't believe some of the things I hear from people. My favorite so far is "the gas will leak out and poison the family! I have been able to talk people from an LCD and into a Plasma just buy asking them how are they using the set. If they mention sports and they have small children.....they are usually hooked.
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post #28 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Karamba676 View Post

Sure you can. As soon as you use it for anything else but watching movies in a darkened room.


Grasshopper....you have much to learn.
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post #29 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DanteRising View Post

I've seen numerous beautiful LCD displays, and I'll be the first to say that I don't think any plasma can easily match the image of an XBR set if you manage to get one without any significant problems.

Not only match but exceed....and I think there are quite a few that fit the bill, especially once things get moving.
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post #30 of 133 Old 04-22-2008, 05:39 PM
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I still don't understand how anyone can want some acronym wannabee player with a name like LCD over the FUTURE SciFi sounding PLASMA TV.

I mean, come on. How many people want an LCD blender over a PLASMA blender?

Or how exciting does it sound to fix the "LCD conduit" on some future Enterprise vs having a "BLOWN OUT PLASMA conduit"?

LOL.

LCD = booooring (yawn)
PLASMA = sexy and techy!

buytme
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