Are plasma TVs on the way out? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting CNet article....

[the target page for this link has changed and is no longer valid--sorry]

Whaddya all think? So far I'm pretty happy with my Panny TH-50PZ85U.
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post #2 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 11:21 AM
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As long as OLED production increases in the next few years, I don't care.
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post #3 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 11:31 AM
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I said it time and time again and I agree with the poster. Plasmas have not appealed to consumer more than LCDs because of the poor display settings and lack of calibration. Also LCDs have gained so much market share. Also performance has become close and the infamous glare and burn-in tactics to sell more LCDs has worked in favor for the B&M stores "punchlines" to increase LCD sales.

So to add to his article, OLED will be our high end displays, while LCDs will be our affordable flat panels. Plasmas will be deceased towards 2011. Largely due to market appeal and not performance.

Chris
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post #4 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 11:35 AM
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Can someone show me proof that OLED has solved the longevity problem, especially for blue? If that problem hasn't been solved, OLED is not the future.

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post #5 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

Can someone show me proof that OLED has solved the longevity problem, especially for blue? If that problem hasn't been solved, OLED is not the future.

Why don't you think OLED will be the next step for flat panels?

How OLEDs Work...

OLED Advantages and Disadvantages
The LCD is currently the display of choice in small devices and is also popular in large-screen TVs. Regular LEDs often form the digits on digital clocks and other electronic devices. OLEDs offer many advantages over both LCDs and LEDs:

* The plastic, organic layers of an OLED are thinner, lighter and more flexible than the crystalline layers in an LED or LCD.
* Because the light-emitting layers of an OLED are lighter, the substrate of an OLED can be flexible instead of rigid. OLED substrates can be plastic rather than the glass used for LEDs and LCDs.
* OLEDs are brighter than LEDs. Because the organic layers of an OLED are much thinner than the corresponding inorganic crystal layers of an LED, the conductive and emissive layers of an OLED can be multi-layered. Also, LEDs and LCDs require glass for support, and glass absorbs some light. OLEDs do not require glass.
* OLEDs do not require backlighting like LCDs (see How LCDs Work). LCDs work by selectively blocking areas of the backlight to make the images that you see, while OLEDs generate light themselves. Because OLEDs do not require backlighting, they consume much less power than LCDs (most of the LCD power goes to the backlighting). This is especially important for battery-operated devices such as cell phones.
* OLEDs are easier to produce and can be made to larger sizes. Because OLEDs are essentially plastics, they can be made into large, thin sheets. It is much more difficult to grow and lay down so many liquid crystals.
* OLEDs have large fields of view, about 170 degrees. Because LCDs work by blocking light, they have an inherent viewing obstacle from certain angles. OLEDs produce their own light, so they have a much wider viewing range.

Problems with OLED
OLED seems to be the perfect technology for all types of displays, but tit also has some problems:

* Lifetime - While red and green OLED films have longer lifetimes (46,000 to 230,000 hours), blue organics currently have much shorter lifetimes (up to around 14,000 hours[source: OLED-Info.com]).
* Manufacturing - Manufacturing processes are expensive right now.
* Water - Water can easily damage OLEDs.

Take a look at all of the advantages vs. disadvantages...

Chris
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post #6 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 11:45 AM
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Looking at the article, again it seems an opinion on the future of plasma is taken from the context of Pioneer's problems in the market.
While I don't care if OLED takes over given it's potential, I don't see a problem for plasma for several years. Panasonic, Samsung and LG are doing well with plasma and have in fact increased production in some cases last I read.
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post #7 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 11:47 AM
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I really needed a laugh today.
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post #8 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 11:47 AM
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Not until a superior technology is available and price competitive. Not until a superior technology is available and price competitive.

"The quickest way to get over your fear of plasma is to actually own *one"- joemama127

*or 3 :)
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post #9 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 12:01 PM
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Hopefully prices have dropped on Oled's when I'm looking to purchase one (5-10years) Hopefully prices have dropped on Oled's when I'm looking to purchase one (5-10years)

Kagolu
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post #10 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 12:19 PM
 
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Plasmas will stay around for as long as they affordable to the consumer. Pioneer is folding because it failed to produce an affordable display. The Kuro, while it might a great display, is not selling well. Who cares about a Kuro if you can't afford to buy one. In these days, $7,500 for a 60' Elite Pioneer Plasma is too much.
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post #11 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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You guys are picking on my clumsiness with the title. Hey, I already apologized!

Another issue with OLEDs that has not been mentioned is brightness consistency across pixels. They can vary quite a bit. This can make images look patchy or splotchy. LCD and plasma technologies are much more consistent pixel to pixel. OLED's issue with this will need to be solved before they can go big, I'd think.
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post #12 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webmasterbill2 View Post

You guys are picking on my clumsiness with the title. Hey, I already apologized!

Another issue with OLEDs that has not been mentioned is brightness consistency across pixels. They can vary quite a bit. This can make images look patchy or splotchy. LCD and plasma technologies are much more consistent pixel to pixel. OLED's issue with this will need to be solved before they can go big, I'd think.

Brightness uniformity issues (Mura) is/was a big issue with OLEDs. They have developed several compensation techniques to fix this issue.

To the best of my knowledge, cost, manufacturing, and power consumption are what is keeping large area OLEDs at bay.

Not to mention the issue of burn-in and IR of which OLED suffers from.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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post #13 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Plasmas will stay around for as long as they affordable to the consumer. Pioneer is folding because it failed to produce an affordable display. The Kuro, while it might a great display, is not selling well. Who cares about a Kuro if you can't afford to buy one. In these days, $7,500 for a 60' Elite Pioneer Plasma is too much.

"Pioneer is folding"??? That is a pretty misleading inaccurate statement.

"Kuro is not selling well" ???? another inaccurate statement. How come the 4280, 5080 and 1150 are so scarce if they arent selling?
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post #14 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jet757f View Post

"Pioneer is folding"??? That is a pretty misleading inaccurate statement.

"Kuro is not selling well" ???? another inaccurate statement. How come the 4280, 5080 and 1150 are so scarce if they arent selling?

They are selling well, but not well enough. The manufacturing on them is not putting out enough displays, so they don't have enough panels to sell. D-Nice said somewhere that there are MFRing more displays this year. Add that to the way our economy is looking... well. They are still not folding, however.

What is dead can never die. Long live my 151!
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post #15 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 12:42 PM
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The "plasma is dead" threads just keep on coming...................

Do you realize plasma sales are up 53% over last year?????

Panasonic is investing billions in a new plant that will begin cranking out plasmas next year, when that happens they will be able to build 2 million panels a month. It doesn't sound like plasma is going anywhere to me..................

Patience has its rewards.
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post #16 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Plasmas will stay around for as long as they affordable to the consumer. Pioneer is folding because it failed to produce an affordable display. The Kuro, while it might a great display, is not selling well. Who cares about a Kuro if you can't afford to buy one. In these days, $7,500 for a 60' Elite Pioneer Plasma is too much.

Pioneer is folding?

"The quickest way to get over your fear of plasma is to actually own *one"- joemama127

*or 3 :)
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post #17 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 01:49 PM
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Pioneer is merely stopping production of plasma glass. They had an old inefficient low-output plant whose cost per panel was way too high. Pioneer does not have the money to build a new plant (well over $1 billion needed), therefore they had the choice of continuing to produce plasmas that would never be able to be price competitive or farming the production of the glass (the most expensive part) out to another company. That is what they did. They are not leaving the plasmas business. They will continue to do final assembly, some engineering, some design, marketing, etc.

The have other areas of their business that are doing very well, such as automotive electronics.

Fujitsu seems to have left the plasma market for similar reasons.

Somehow, many in the press have taken Pioneer's decision to outsource its plasma panel manufacturing and Fujitsu leaving the business to mean that plasma is dying. Didn't Panasonic, the biggest producer of plasmas, just announce record profits?

Plasma is far from dead.

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post #18 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 02:27 PM
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Plasma will die when an LCD looks as good as a plasma and costs the same for the same size display.
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post #19 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 03:56 PM
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Plasma will evolve - not die IMO --- just as LCD will evolve to OLED down the road 3-5 years. Panny enters LCD in a much bigger way 2-3 yrs from now and has the resources to evolve and survive and have a hand in both technologies.

Competition is the motor that drives innovation for both and we are the benefactors. While I have a personal preference toward LCD I strongly favor competition and Plasma survival so that it forces each to innovate.

I would guess Plasma would have at least a 4-5 year life cycle left if they get trumped by profitability of what will become a much lighter thinner form factor OLED LCD if they resolve the longevity issues. Either way Panny holds enough capacity and resources to stay in the game as long as they can remain profitable.

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #20 of 270 Old 05-01-2008, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creemail View Post

I said it time and time again and I agree with the poster. Plasmas have not appealed to consumer more than LCDs because of the poor display settings and lack of calibration. Also LCDs have gained so much market share. Also performance has become close and the infamous glare and burn-in tactics to sell more LCDs has worked in favor for the B&M stores "punchlines" to increase LCD sales.

So to add to his article, OLED will be our high end displays, while LCDs will be our affordable flat panels. Plasmas will be deceased towards 2011. Largely due to market appeal and not performance.

Chris

LCD's will be the affordable display? Affordable compared to what? Hitachi just introduced the slimline Directors series today with the 47" going for a very un-affordable $4699. Hitachi is not even in the top three of LCD manufactures.
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post #21 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 09:29 AM
 
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"Pioneer Electronics which is reeling from poor plasma sales has decided to stop producing 42" plasma screens. Instead it will buy panels from arch competitor Panasonic, and Hitachi which last month pulled out of the Australian market." by David Richards. 2/25/08.

Pioneer is sinking into the red for the fiscal year ending March 31, racking up a 15 billion yen ($145.6 million) loss for charges for restructuring its PDP TV business. It had previously forecast a 6 billion yen ($58 million) profit.

The decision to pull out of plasma TV panel production will chalk up a one-time cost of 19 billion yen ($184.5 million). But Pioneer said it will return to profit for the fiscal year ending March 2010.

J.P. Morgan analyst Yoshiharu Izumi said Pioneer's strategy to focus on high-end electronics products, which he dubbed "the Gucci approach," largely failed because consumers weren't willing to pay a premium for such products.
ABCnews

Pioneer is the world's fifth-biggest plasma TV maker, but it has been struggling to compete with larger rivals with better output efficiency such as Matsushita Electric Industrial Co, maker of Panasonic-brand electronics.

After the move, Pioneer plans to buy plasma panels for flat TVs from Matsushita, the Nikkei business daily reported. Pioneer is already planning to buy liquid crystal display panels from Sharp Corp to start offering LCD TVs.


Now folks, the above is irrefutable proof that Pioneer has folded. I don't know what else its going to take to convince you.

Also, Panasonic has hired all of the Kuro Engineers. The only thing thats keeping Pioneer Electronics going is their audio products, car and home.

Face it, Pioneer can't compete in the market and usually when that happens its time to say good bye!!
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post #22 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

"Pioneer Electronics which is reeling from poor plasma sales has decided to stop producing 42" plasma screens. Instead it will buy panels from arch competitor Panasonic, and Hitachi which last month pulled out of the Australian market." by David Richards. 2/25/08.

Pioneer is sinking into the red for the fiscal year ending March 31, racking up a 15 billion yen ($145.6 million) loss for charges for restructuring its PDP TV business. It had previously forecast a 6 billion yen ($58 million) profit.

The decision to pull out of plasma TV panel production will chalk up a one-time cost of 19 billion yen ($184.5 million). But Pioneer said it will return to profit for the fiscal year ending March 2010.

J.P. Morgan analyst Yoshiharu Izumi said Pioneer's strategy to focus on high-end electronics products, which he dubbed "the Gucci approach," largely failed because consumers weren't willing to pay a premium for such products.
ABCnews

Pioneer is the world's fifth-biggest plasma TV maker, but it has been struggling to compete with larger rivals with better output efficiency such as Matsushita Electric Industrial Co, maker of Panasonic-brand electronics.

After the move, Pioneer plans to buy plasma panels for flat TVs from Matsushita, the Nikkei business daily reported. Pioneer is already planning to buy liquid crystal display panels from Sharp Corp to start offering LCD TVs.


Now folks, the above is irrefutable proof that Pioneer has folded. I don't know what else its going to take to convince you.

Also, Panasonic has hired all of the Kuro Engineers. The only thing thats keeping Pioneer Electronics going is their audio products, car and home.

Face it, Pioneer can't compete in the market and usually when that happens its time to say good bye!!

You continue your attempts to spread FUD yet no one is listening. Do you actually have a real job Auditor55?
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post #23 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

[ which he dubbed "the Gucci approach," largely failed because consumers weren't willing to pay a premium for such products.[/b] ABCnews



Those that have little to say always have to shout the loudest.
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post #24 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 09:52 AM
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post #25 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

"Pioneer Electronics which is reeling from poor plasma sales has decided to stop producing 42" plasma screens. Instead it will buy panels from arch competitor Panasonic, and Hitachi which last month pulled out of the Australian market." by David Richards. 2/25/08.

Pioneer is sinking into the red for the fiscal year ending March 31, racking up a 15 billion yen ($145.6 million) loss for charges for restructuring its PDP TV business. It had previously forecast a 6 billion yen ($58 million) profit.

The decision to pull out of plasma TV panel production will chalk up a one-time cost of 19 billion yen ($184.5 million). But Pioneer said it will return to profit for the fiscal year ending March 2010.

J.P. Morgan analyst Yoshiharu Izumi said Pioneer's strategy to focus on high-end electronics products, which he dubbed "the Gucci approach," largely failed because consumers weren't willing to pay a premium for such products.
ABCnews

Pioneer is the world's fifth-biggest plasma TV maker, but it has been struggling to compete with larger rivals with better output efficiency such as Matsushita Electric Industrial Co, maker of Panasonic-brand electronics.

After the move, Pioneer plans to buy plasma panels for flat TVs from Matsushita, the Nikkei business daily reported. Pioneer is already planning to buy liquid crystal display panels from Sharp Corp to start offering LCD TVs.


Now folks, the above is irrefutable proof that Pioneer has folded. I don't know what else its going to take to convince you.

Also, Panasonic has hired all of the Kuro Engineers. The only thing thats keeping Pioneer Electronics going is their audio products, car and home.

Face it, Pioneer can't compete in the market and usually when that happens its time to say good bye!!

It's hard to get the Kuro fanboys to deal with reality, so why bother trying??? Many of them honestly belive that people are stacked up waiting to shell out 6 grand for a Kuro, but Pioneer just can't produce enough of them to meet demand.
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post #26 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 09:57 AM
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+1 to D-Nice and highheater's comments.
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post #27 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

+1 to D-Nice and highheater's comments.

An aside....

Along with my clutsiness in doubling the thread title, I'm going to further show my nooby ignorance by asking this: What does "+1" mean? It certainly seems like an accolade.
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post #28 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 10:23 AM
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personally - i really don't care if plasmas are at their end or not - i think, like most people here, that i want the best possible picture regardless of the technology. If oled or sed or plasma or lcd gives the best picture then "i'm in". Today its Pioneer plasma - tomorrow - who knows.
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post #29 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 10:29 AM
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+1 means what the poster typed was what the person posting the +1 was thinking.
So you agree with what was posted without havinbg to say the same thing over, maybe in different words.

And +1 to ikeb's post above.
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post #30 of 270 Old 05-02-2008, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webmasterbill2 View Post

An aside....

Along with my clutsiness in doubling the thread title, I'm going to further show my nooby ignorance by asking this: What does "+1" mean? It certainly seems like an accolade.

+1 = Agree with.

Kagolu
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