The Official 9G Pioneer General Discussion Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Madden View Post

Forgive me if this has been asked, but is the stand for the 6020FD optional or does it come with the panel?

It comes with the panel.
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post #272 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Madden View Post

Forgive me if this has been asked, but is the stand for the 6020FD optional or does it come with the panel?

It comes with the panel.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #273 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 08:46 PM
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D-Nice-- so the 9G Elite Kuros have the identical look of the PRO-110FD (meaning no changes to the bezels, same glossy piano finish, same Elite logo, etc.) just that they are thinner?
Also--- will the blacks be significantly better, producing the "floating picture" effect Pioneer is aiming towards with thier 10G panels?
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post #274 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I haven't heard of any changes to the gamma options on the 9Gs.

I'll verify once I get one.

Thanks, I'd like to hear that. It'd be a shame not to allow a 2.5 gamma preset, or what should be available is a custom gamma curve option. 40,000:1 true on/off contrast can handle a 2.5 gamma easily. 2.2 isn't what the display is supposed to use, that's what the camera uses. The final display gamma is supposed to be 2.5, because the system gamma is ~1.14 not 1.0.

If it's not available, maybe you can get whomever you know to tell them to add it to at least the signature series.
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post #275 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sony324 View Post

D-Nice-- so the 9G Elite Kuros have the identical look of the PRO-110FD (meaning no changes to the bezels, same glossy piano finish, same Elite logo, etc.) just that they are thinner?
Also--- will the blacks be significantly better, producing the "floating picture" effect Pioneer is aiming towards with thier 10G panels?

The bezels are identical
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post #276 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Put the two side-by-side with the same content. Turn DRE off and set your brightness on the Kuro to +1. Turn off the lights and tell me what you see

Here's my test after setting my Kuro as you noted:

Go to Chapter 26 on Spiderman on either blu-ray or dvd. On DVD go to 1:39:54 or on blu-ray go to 1:40:00. You will see an aerial view of Mary Jane standing up on a bridge at night. I'm not sure what you call it but it's one of those bridges that has thin beams that can be walked on but is see through (if that made any sense). On my Kuro with the lights on those beams are faint. With the light totally off you can see them better but they are still somewhat faint. to the left of Mary Jane there appears to be somewhat of a black gap.

If I do the same on my SXRD those rails can be clearly seen and that black gap is obviously her shadow. I can see all those details with the Kuro on User brightness at mid level, gamma not increased, and even with black enhancer maxed out.

If you set the Kuro's brightness to +8 or 9, then I can see the details that I am seeing on my SXRD however this take a toll on black levels big time. This is exactly my complaint about shadow details on the Kuro and one of the reasons why I want more brightness.

BTW, I see basically the same thing on the Kuro from either DVD(from an HD-D3) or blu-ray(from my PS3).

For the record, this is the very scene that has driven me to obsession about black levels. When I went from a 35" Sony Trinitron to a 61 Samsung HLN617W and saw the lack of details and how washed out the picture was in this scene I was just about ready to send the TV back to the store but stuck with it because I got set on a big screen.
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post #277 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Here's my test after setting my Kuro as you noted:

Go to Chapter 26 on Spiderman on either blu-ray or dvd. On DVD go to 1:39:54 or on blu-ray go to 1:40:00. You will see an aerial view of Mary Jane standing up on a bridge at night. I'm not sure what you call it but it's one of those bridges that has thin beams that can be walked on but is see through (if that made any sense). On my Kuro with the lights on those beams are faint. With the light totally off you can see them better but they are still somewhat faint. to the left of Mary Jane there appears to be somewhat of a black gap.

If I do the same on my SXRD those rails can be clearly seen and that black gap is obviously her shadow. I can see all those details with the Kuro on User brightness at mid level, gamma not increased, and even with black enhancer maxed out.

If you set the Kuro's brightness to +8 or 9, then I can see the details that I am seeing on my SXRD however this take a toll on black levels big time. This is exactly my complaint about shadow details on the Kuro and one of the reasons why I want more brightness.

BTW, I see basically the same thing on the Kuro from either DVD(from an HD-D3) or blu-ray(from my PS3)

I need you to do exactly what I asked

If you want more "brightness" in the shadows, you need to invest in a PZ85u as they have a hump in the lower end to make the shadow details "overly bright".
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post #278 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

If you set the Kuro's brightness to +8 or 9, then I can see the details that I am seeing on my SXRD however this take a toll on black levels big time. This is exactly my complaint about shadow details on the Kuro and one of the reasons why I want more brightness.

It's not a problem with brightness, a Kuro can easily do 35 foot lamberts for peak white. That's definitely not a "problem." If you're having a problem, then your SXRD's brightness is set too high in the wrong environment. 35 ftl is the exact same brightness a telecinist uses.

The problem can only be one of three:

1) Your ambient light is more than what SMPTE recommends a telecinist uses. Solution, reduce lighting and reflections.
2) You have other settings wrong on your Kuro, which are affecting gamma. Solution, use correct settings and not your preference.
3) You're picking out a detail you're not supposed to see anyway, or one that the telecinist didn't properly set. Solution, call up Sony Picture Studios and tell them you think they made a mistake in the encode.

But the fact of the matter is, the Kuro isn't meant for more brightness. If brightness is a problem, there's something else that needs fixing.
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post #279 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:24 PM
 
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D-NICE man you are working overtime. How do you do it? Thank you
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post #280 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I need you to do exactly what I asked

If you want more "brightness" in the shadows, you need to invest in a PZ85u as they have a hump in the lower end to make the shadow details "overly bright".

I want both though. Actually if you turn DRE on it improves shadow detail in this particular scene. I think DRE helps in certain scenes and causes issues in others FWIW.
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post #281 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I want both though. Actually if you turn DRE on it improves shadow detail in this particular scene. I think DRE helps in certain scenes and causes issues in others FWIW.

It could also be a problem with the processing. But I doubt it.

Here are two other things you can try

1) Set the Kuro to Movie mode. Pure mode doesn't do correct gamma. But turn off the damn DRE.
2) Borrow a VP like a Lumagen HD* or Radiance. Output 1920x1080@24p and 60p direct from the VP. Compare both. See if one over the other produces a different picture compared to a direct connection. If so, it's an internal video processing error in the Kuro.
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post #282 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post


1) Set the Kuro to Movie mode. Pure mode doesn't do correct gamma. But turn off the damn DRE.

First, Pure mode does do correct gamma. In fact, it's better than Movie mode. Second he has a 6010 which is NOT an Elite
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post #283 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

It's not a problem with brightness, a Kuro can easily do 35 foot lamberts for peak white. That's definitely not a "problem." If you're having a problem, then your SXRD's brightness is set too high in the wrong environment. 35 ftl is the exact same brightness a telecinist uses.

The problem can only be one of three:

1) Your ambient light is more than what SMPTE recommends a telecinist uses. Solution, reduce lighting and reflections.
2) You have other settings wrong on your Kuro, which are affecting gamma. Solution, use correct settings and not your preference.
3) You're picking out a detail you're not supposed to see anyway, or one that the telecinist didn't properly set. Solution, call up Sony Picture Studios and tell them you think they made a mistake in the encode.

But the fact of the matter is, the Kuro isn't meant for more brightness. If brightness is a problem, there's something else that needs fixing.

1) Can I reduce my lighting to more than a completely dark room? And reflections? The lights are off man.

2)D-Nice saw my settings and I took his suggestions. The only thing in the user menu that will bring out details is brightness, contrast to a limited extent, gamma (which is at 3), DRE which I set to off at D-Nice's suggestion, and ACL on or off (doesn't matter in this scene). Anything else via the User menu isn't going to make the difference.

3) And this statement is utter non-sense:

Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

You're picking out a detail you're not supposed to see anyway, or one that the telecinist didn't properly set. Solution, call up Sony Picture Studios and tell them you think they made a mistake in the encode.

So let me get your reasoning straight, if I see the details on a non-kuro it's not really there, but if it's in the Kuro then that's what the director intended? I'm sorry, but your post has fan-boy written all over it.

I'm not saying the Kuro's are bad sets, in fact they are great TVs, but they are not perfect. If you think they are then your in denial.
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post #284 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

First, Pure mode does do correct gamma. In fact, it's better than Movie mode. Second he has a 6010 which is NOT an Elite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

The Pure mode is not as desirable as one might like. The Gamma is not great in that mode. The gamma curve is the most accurate in the movie mode of the TV.

Regards

.
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post #285 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

3) You're picking out a detail you're not supposed to see anyway, or one that the telecinist didn't properly set. Solution, call up Sony Picture Studios and tell them you think they made a mistake in the encode.

Huh?

Are you saying that if the Kuro can't display it...it doesn't really exist?
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post #286 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

It could also be a problem with the processing. But I doubt it.

Here are two other things you can try

1) Set the Kuro to Movie mode. Pure mode doesn't do correct gamma. But turn off the damn DRE.
2) Borrow a VP like a Lumagen HD* or Radiance. Output 1920x1080@24p and 60p direct from the VP. Compare both. See if one over the other produces a different picture compared to a direct connection. If so, it's an internal video processing error in the Kuro.

1) Movie mode is a slight improvement in gamma but it's too dim for my taste. I'd rather turn brightness up on standard or user.

2) I'm not going to through this much trouble. Sheesh. I made a passing statement at Westa and I'm being told that I'm either blind and have no idea what I'm talking about.
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post #287 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Madden View Post

Forgive me if this has been asked, but is the stand for the 6020FD optional or does it come with the panel?

The stand comes with all models.
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post #288 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I want both though. Actually if you turn DRE on it improves shadow detail in this particular scene. I think DRE helps in certain scenes and causes issues in others FWIW.

Some have claimed that because the glass is so dark on the 8g that it has sacrificed brightness and shadow detail. I wonder myself, but a few adjustments i made myself at worst buy i thought the kuro had excellent shadow detail. I think i was at +4 brightness, gamma if i remember was 1 or something. If i recall 3 gamma is less brighter..
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post #289 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

1) Can I reduce my lighting to more than a completely dark room? And reflections? The lights are off man.

No, but you can get rid of shiny objects and not use white walls. If you haven't already. Turning off the lights is simply not enough some of the time.
Quote:
2)D-Nice saw my settings and I took his suggestions. The only thing in the user menu that will bring out details is brightness, contrast to a limited extent, gamma (which is at 3), DRE which I set to off at D-Nice's suggestion, and ACL on or off (doesn't matter in this scene). Anything else via the User menu isn't going to make the difference.

3) And this statement is utter non-sense:



So let me get your reasoning straight, if I see the details on a non-kuro it's not really there, but if it's in the Kuro then that's what the director intended? I'm sorry, but your post has fan-boy written all over it.

I'm not saying the Kuro's are bad sets, in fact they are great TVs, but they are not perfect. If you think they are then your in denial.

An SXRD isn't as good as the Kuro. I'm not a fanboy, I just know for a fact an SXRD in no way, shape or form can beat a Kuro in any fashion, not on/off CR or ANSI CR. If it is, then either your Kuro or SXRD is not setup properly. I don't even own one, but I have spent lots of time with both SXRD RPTVs and Kuros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptlurking View Post

Huh?

Are you saying that if the Kuro can't display it...it doesn't really exist?

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is, if you can't see it on a properly calibrated Kuro, you definitely won't see it on an SXRD of any kind.
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post #290 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 09:54 PM
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Wow, took me forever to catch up with this thread, and it's only been like 20 hours since I last checked!

I noticed a few people asking about what (if anything) Pio has done differently with the 9Gs to eliminate the buzzing that some 8G's have suffered from. Here's what I've read regarding this;

"Current 8G generation screens suffer from a buzz. Sometimes the buzz is loud, other times can only be heard by putting your ear next to the screen per AVSforum reports. Cause has not been confirmed but some reports suggest it is due to the power supply being part of the screen itself, and/or some advance electronics that have to due with the turning on and off of the pixels themselves. The 9G's are rumored to have a box that houses the power supply and some of the electronics and is connected by a cord. Panasonic apparently does this on some of their plasma screens"

http://vahalee-technologytoday.blogs...formation.html

Hopefully this will take care of the problem. I don't imagine that Pio wouldn't fix such a large issue.

Also, did anyone else notice the MSRP on the 6020 in the cave cnet post? $5000!?!? I hope they're right, but I imagine they're wrong.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-993...?tag=cnetfd.mt

Now I just have to wait and hope that the 6020 will hit Canada shortly after the US, and at a similar price.

-Coggs
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post #291 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

No, but you can get rid of shiny objects and not use white walls. If you haven't already. Turning off the lights is simply not enough some of the time.


An SXRD isn't as good as the Kuro. I'm not a fanboy, I just know for a fact an SXRD in no way, shape or form can beat a Kuro in any fashion, not on/off CR or ANSI CR. If it is, then either your Kuro or SXRD is not setup properly. I don't even own one, but I have spent lots of time with both SXRD RPTVs and Kuros.



That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is, if you can't see it on a properly calibrated Kuro, you definitely won't see it on an SXRD of any kind.

Wow, I have been out of it for awhile and I love the Kuro picture enough to buy the 9G, but I totally remember back in the 90's when the Pioneer Elite Rear Projection CRT sets had the blackest blacks ever, but no shadow detail. It seems like the Sony's have always had better shadow detail at the expense of blacks (I had a 53 inch XBR CRT RP and watched it until the CRT's burned out). Someday we will be able to have our cake and eat it to, but right now I will take the Pioneer over the Sony. The 8G's I've seen are absolutely phenomonal... almost 3D at times!!!
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post #292 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:06 PM
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They're wrong, MSRP is $5500. As for the buzz, I read somewhere that Pioneer is using a new power supply this year, which should alleviate that problem somewhat.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #293 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

No, but you can get rid of shiny objects and not use white walls. If you haven't already. Turning off the lights is simply not enough some of the time..

So I'm supposed to rearrange my environment so the Kuro wins? Are you really serious? My walls are tan BTW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reio-ta View Post

An SXRD isn't as good as the Kuro. I'm not a fanboy, I just know for a fact an SXRD in no way, shape or form can beat a Kuro in any fashion, not on/off CR or ANSI CR. If it is, then either your Kuro or SXRD is not setup properly. I don't even own one, but I have spent lots of time with both SXRD RPTVs and Kuros.

I totally agree, an SXRD isn't even close to as good as a Kuro. However it does do better with shadow details and I don't even have to raise the brightness a notch and I can even max out black enhancer which crushes details and it still wins. I've seen it with my own eyes. What's the deal with the Kuro having to win in every area? You're taking this all to seriously. The Kuro is a great TV but it does have areas to improve upon.
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post #294 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

yeah. but i don't think i want the speaker there unused. and i've only got two wires - power and one HDMI. i'm going to try to run them down one leg so you won't see them.

I use the speaker for my 5010 (bedroom set) but on the 6010, even though I have a 5.1 system connected, installing the speaker (even unused) was an improvement (IMHO) of looks... Try with it on and off and see which you believe looks best (and congrats on your new 5010!!!)
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post #295 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PARASITE View Post

UM, I'm sorry but a calibrated Kuro elite has ZERO BLACK CRUSH! Anyone who says they see black crush on a kuro, is looking at one that is not calibrated right. I owned a XBR1 SXRD, and yes it had great shadow detail but not as good as my elite. 9Gs look great, but I'm holding out for ECC is 2009. D-nice is that still gonna happen? or do we have to wait until 2010 for the ECC?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an ECC?? I read with great interest the CES reports of the Pioneer no one knew was on in a darkened room. I guess I was under the false impression that would be the next generation, the 9G. The big question for me is: do I grab the 9G with what has to be an amazing picture if it is even 3% better than the current model while Pioneer still makes them, or do I wait another year or two in search of the deep black holy grail and chance the quality will suffer with outsourcing the panels. If they are built to Pioneer's specs, and tested and inspected by Pioneer, do you still think there is a chance they won't be as good??
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post #296 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Swatdude1 View Post

Pardon my ignorance, but what is an ECC?? I read with great interest the CES reports of the Pioneer no one knew was on in a darkened room. I guess I was under the false impression that would be the next generation, the 9G. The big question for me is: do I grab the 9G with what has to be an amazing picture if it is even 3% better than the current model while Pioneer still makes them, or do I wait another year or two in search of the deep black holy grail and chance the quality will suffer with outsourcing the panels. If they are built to Pioneer's specs, and tested and inspected by Pioneer, do you still think there is a chance they won't be as good??

ECC Extreme Contrast Concept.

I would go for the 9G, unless you feel like waiting another year or two.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #297 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:18 PM
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Here's a quote for all you guys waiting on that 70"+ Kuro:

Quote:
Neyhoeser told BetaNews that, for the future, Pioneer is working on plasma screens in larger form factors than the 50- and 60-inch 1080p models in the 2008 line-up. "And, of course, we'll continue to strive for 'absolute black,'" he added.

http://www.betanews.com/article/Holl...TVs/1210296793

Patience has its rewards.
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post #298 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

I read somewhere that Pioneer is using a new power supply this year, which should alleviate that problem somewhat.

Probably same place I posted a link to, I hope they're right.
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post #299 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Swatdude1 View Post

Wow, I have been out of it for awhile and I love the Kuro picture enough to buy the 9G, but I totally remember back in the 90's when the Pioneer Elite Rear Projection CRT sets had the blackest blacks ever, but no shadow detail. It seems like the Sony's have always had better shadow detail at the expense of blacks (I had a 53 inch XBR CRT RP and watched it until the CRT's burned out). Someday we will be able to have our cake and eat it to, but right now I will take the Pioneer over the Sony. The 8G's I've seen are absolutely phenomonal... almost 3D at times!!!

You're right the Kuro is amazing. I'd have gotten one if it were able to beat the black levels of the best CRT, but it can't beat a Sony G90 projector. But these 9Gs should, not using any gamma tricks. If the 9Gs have a 2.5 gamma option, I'll have a hard time deciding between the Sony VPL-VW70 or the 60" Elite or Signature.

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Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

So I'm supposed to rearrange my environment so the Kuro wins? Are you really serious? My walls are tan BTW.



I totally agree, an SXRD isn't even close to as good as a Kuro. However it does do better with shadow details and I don't even have to raise the brightness a notch and I can even max out black enhancer which crushes details and it still wins. I've seen it with my own eyes. What's the deal with the Kuro having to win in every area? You're taking this all to seriously. The Kuro is a great TV but it does have areas to improve upon.

My wife says I take my TVs way too seriously too!

Hmmm I don't know, tan should be "good enough." The only other way I can think of that the SXRD is "winning" is because of its auto-iris. Turning off the auto-iris and closing to its minimum value, that would put both TVs on equal footing. The auto-iris will cause brightness compression in any mode. That might be what's doing it. Whenever I looked at the SXRDs, I'd put the iris at its minimum value. If the SXRD still wins on that scene, it's possible it's a weird scene. Art from the over $20,000 forum section has a Sim2. Its on/off isn't anywhere near his G90 stack he got rid of, but there is a scene in Snow Falling on Cedars
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Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

In one scene the lead character is walking toward and then under a large dock. With the CRT there is nothing visible under that dock due to the nearly 50% split to the left of bright daylight. Objects of all sorts are clearly visible under that dock with the 3 chip

So I guess anything's possible, although it's strange.
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post #300 of 7982 Old 05-08-2008, 10:51 PM
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With all of the Pioneer hype within this thread, we can say that Pioneer has made a hit and they are back. I am hoping that they will create a standard for a long time within the plasma industry.

Chris
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