The Official 9G Pioneer General Discussion Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 12:44 PM
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I want to know where you can get those processors (Lumagen HDP and HDQ) for a price that's less than the difference between an Elite and Non-Elite.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #452 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

How exactly can you perform a remote ISF calibration without a sensor of some kind taking a reading off the screen?

Remember that the plasma is a computer ... of sorts ... and so it will be able to communicate its data over the internet.
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post #453 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Here you go.

Lumagen video processor

I have a Lumagen VisionPro HDP. It's a great processor, but if your goal is wanting a better CMS than what's in the Elite, look elsewhere. The HD* series don't have enough gates for the full 3D-CMS in the Radiance. If you get the primaries perfect, then secondaries change too. It's "possible" but would only be luck if how the HD* series does its "CMS" that whatever primary error would exactly fix the secondary issue too. But it's highly improbable.

Read here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=Lumagen

If I were getting a 9G Elite/Signature, I'd probably only use it with my Panasonic SDI DVD player, the DVD-RP82. Since in my opinion, it's one of the very best stand alone DVD players, with the mod. Because I already have the equipment, buying a player to beat it using HDMI, would be stupid.
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post #454 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 12:56 PM
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Hey reio-ta. I tried to read that thread, but it was WAAAY over my head. Can you tell us what you mean by primaries and secondaries? Any other info that would be useful to us that you can translate into lay terms?

Thanks for your work here.
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post #455 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashti View Post

Hey reio-ta. I tried to read that thread, but it was WAAAY over my head. Can you tell us what you mean by primaries and secondaries? Any other info that would be useful to us that you can translate into lay terms?

Thanks for your work here.

What else do you need to know?

As for what primaries and secondaries mean:

Red, Green, Blue are primaries
Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow are secondaries.



It'd be just like in real life. Say you made a transparency with red, green and blue and had all shades of each color. You then overlapped them. If your error isn't a simple one, where all three are equally off, like if you didn't overlap your colors properly, but the shades are correct. If you had an error with your red toner being too low, then by fixing red, you'd need to fix blue and green by a different amount. That's doing it in "3-D". The Radiance allows you to offset the secondaries and primaries at the same time, using a complex color warping algorithm, which I was told by Lumagen themselves how the Radiance CMS works. The HD* series uses the old, non-warping, method before adding a 3-D method. The new method mimics adding unequal amounts of red, green and blue correction, that's what you want. The old method only works if you shift the color equally in red, green and blue, which is pretty much useless but better than nothing in most cases, and most of the time is a preference. Sometimes the HD* method can give an equally wrong result, but it's more pleasing to you. Say you do like Tom did, only his green was off. Look at the chart. The direction he pushed green made yellows wrong, but by a lesser degree than green was off. Apparently his error was green needed to go more towards the red direction. You could argue that he just shifted the error, and if you like your reds and yellows untouched, his "fixing" the error on his Sony CRT wouldn't be a fix for you.
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post #456 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 01:29 PM
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Thanks, that was exactly what I was asking for. This definitely has me leaning back toward the elite. I appreciate the help.
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post #457 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 01:58 PM
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What are the highs and lows. I periodically see things in the settings thread that have RGB high and low offsets. I assume the lows change how the lower level of those colors looks. But explain more in depth please.

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post #458 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:06 PM
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When you say you had the "dreaded buzz", do you mean the type that came from the front of the panel (seemingly right out of the glass) or from the power supply? With my 8G, the buzz was not at all connected with the power supply. From the back, it was from both the left and right panels; in the front it seemed to coverge as a sound "beam" at its worst at ear level when someone sat across from the panel. Is this what you had before the fix? By the way, the reason I am using the past tense here is because I returned my 8G; I couldn't take the buzz.

If you did have a similar panel buzz, there is perhaps hope that there is a fix that will be engineered into the 9G's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rdb001 View Post

FYI for 8G owners. My 1150 had the dreaded buzz, but Pioneer fixed it. At some point a few months ago my set started to turn off by itself and would not stay on after that for more than 15 minutes or so. They sent a team to my house to fix it. Essentially they didn't even check to see the problem (my set came on but they didn't want to wait 5 minutes for it to go off). They removed the entire board from the back (on the left side if you are looking at it from behind) and replaced it with a new one. All problems fixed! Thanks Pioneer.

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post #459 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:21 PM
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So, there is no real PQ advantage with the Elite uless you get your set professionally calibrated, is that correct? I don't even know if there is someone in my area that can even do this!
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post #460 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hingis_fan View Post

So, there is no real PQ advantage with the Elite uless you get your set professionally calibrated, is that correct? I don't even know if there is someone in my area that can even do this!

No... The user calibration on the elites can get you much better PQ than the non-elites.

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post #461 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

I assumed remote calibration might not be the same quality as in-house. Is this because the calibrator has to visually see the actual live-screen picture?

No. It's how the measurements are taken.
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post #462 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:29 PM
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Thanks to xrox for pointing out the following hint at Canadian pricing.

http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=3709

What is interesting is that the Canadian pricing suggested in the article is the same as the US pricing for the non-Elites, $500 more for the Pro 111, and a full $1000 higher for the Pro 151 (though this is less than the $1500 gap between the Pro 150 pricing in CDN vs US).

I am hoping that the Pro 151 pricing may come down once all of the remaining 150's are gone. (It seems there are a few left with the MRSP still at $8999). Otherwise, the $2000 gap between the Elite and non-Elite 60" set seems very big to me.

Brian
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post #463 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:30 PM
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a Kuro Elite owner has those added options to tweak their set better then the regular Kuros. a good isf calibration would make them even closer but it's not a huge difference.

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #464 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hingis_fan View Post

So, there is no real PQ advantage with the Elite uless you get your set professionally calibrated, is that correct? I don't even know if there is someone in my area that can even do this!

Incorrect. The Elites will look better out of the box due to Colorspace2 and Pure mode. You will never be able to "fix" a non Elite's CIE color points without an outboard scaler. If one can get everything in the same package (Elite) for the same cost as a non-Elite plus an outboard scaler that MUST be calibrated by a professional, what sense does it make to go the latter?
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post #465 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

To be fair to Robert, he didn't say the difference between 8G and 9G was the same as 7G to 8G. Rather, he said it was noticeable but not as significant as the prior jump.

You quoted me 100% accurately. At CES Pioneer had private viewing demo room set up with 8G and 9G panels exactly next to each other. I was also invited to Cesar's Palace where Pioneer had a private suite with senior product managers and product trainig specialists doing excellent presentations showing off the 7G, 8G and 9G and some high end competitors products.

So accurate comparisons were easy to evaluate and to my golden eyes you could clearly see the finer detail and blacker blacks on the 9G Kuro display vs. the 8G, but the black level improvement was not as dramatic as the jump form the 7G models.

This Tuesday through Friday I'll be in CA at Pioneer's Elite dealer training so we'll all learn more once I get back to my hotel room each night to post what I learn.

-Robert
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post #466 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer View Post

You quoted me 100% accurately. At CES Pioneer had private viewing demo room set up with 8G and 9G panels exactly next to each other. I was also invited to Cesar's Palace where Pioneer had a private suite with senior product managers and product trainig specialists doing excellent presentations showing off the 7G, 8G and 9G and some high end competitors products.

So accurate comparisons were easy to evaluate and to my golden eyes you could clearly see the finer detail and blacker blacks on the 9G Kuro display vs. the 8G, but the black level improvement was not as dramatic as the jump form the 7G models.

This Tuesday through Friday I'll be in CA at Pioneer's Elite dealer training so we'll all learn more once I get back to my hotel room each night to post what I learn.

-Robert

Have fun on your trip Robert (lucky b$#%@@*)
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post #467 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post

Hopefully Jeff (umr) and other calibrators notice this thread and give us their input. The whole Elite vs. Video Processor/standard lineup in a great question. Also in the future, you can easily upgrade the processor alone.

It is hard to say what would be best for a display that does not exist. The gray scale, gamma and color adjustments in the Lumagen unit's has been superior to what is in the prior model Elite's.
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post #468 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

No. It's how the measurements are taken.

You threw me such a small morsel, D-Nice. Bear with me here .... Does the calibrator's instruments have to take visual/light data from the screen itself? Otherwise, he could "plug" his analytical/calibration equipment into the plasma's electronics via the internet and measure and manipulate to his heart's content ... and do it from most anywhere in the world.
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post #469 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

You threw me such a small morsel, D-Nice. Bear with me here .... Does the calibrator's instruments have to take visual/light data from the screen itself? Otherwise, he could "plug" his analytical/calibration equipment into the plasma's electronics via the internet and measure and manipulate to his heart's content ... and do it from most anywhere in the world.

I don't think he is allowed (by his source.) to give us much more information on the remote ISFing of the signatures.

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post #470 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

It is hard to say what would be best for a display that does not exist. The gray scale, gamma and color adjustments in the Lumagen unit's has been superior to what is in the prior model Elite's.

I will have to disagree with you here as you do not use ISFccc. I understand why you do not like it, however, looking only at the capabilities, the law of diminishing returns play a factor here.
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post #471 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:07 PM
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Geeez, I need to take two aspirins and go to bed...I feel a "plasma fever" coming on!

Robert, have a great trip, and looking forward to your upcoming posts from Pio Elite Boot Camp!
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post #472 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

I don't think he is allowed (by his source.) to give us much more information on the remote ISFing of the signatures.

I've seen graphic artists use instruments that stick onto the face of a computer screen which are used to calibrate color output ... and what is a plasma screen but a computer screen? So I don't think he'd be giving away any state secretes. But I could easily be wrong. I'm by no means the expert here ... which is why I'm here.
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post #473 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashti View Post

This is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I've heard nothing but over the moon raves about Pure mode. So I suppose I'm weighing which leads to best picture: elite with pure mode or non-elite with no pure mode but advantages of an external processor? So far, nobody's been able to contrast those two things for me. I know I need to wait for the 9th G to be released, as this may be different this year anyway....

This is an impossible question to answer.

1) These displays have some significant variability. Some 8G Elites in the past can be setup to have nearly perfect color performance while others cannot. Some will work well in pure others will not. I had one for example the other day that was way desaturated in color space 2 and had to be calibrated in color space 1 to have good color performance. It seems to vary with the display factory calibration and phosphorus batch.

2) The 9G is not available so no one knows what they will look like.

3) Pioneer's CMS is not correctly implemented because the white will shift when non-white point CMS moves are made. This is not correct.

4) The difference in what is achievable with an external processor versus a display will depend on the sample chosen for comparison. In some cases the difference will be subtle while in others it will be less so.

I would purchase a RadianceXD with an Elite and calibrate it properly if you want to have certainty of the absolute best display performance. Unfortunately, that is a very expensive option. All other options are a crap shoot to some degree.
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post #474 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

I've seen graphic artists use instruments that stick onto the face of a computer screen which are used to calibrate color output ... and what is a plasma screen but a computer screen? So I don't think he'd be giving away any state secretes. But I could easily be wrong. I'm by no means the expert here ... which is why I'm here.

I (kind of) know how on-site calibration works. But the secret or whatever that he can't tell us isn't on-site. It is the way that they record and send the data. I'm

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post #475 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:26 PM
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Wow! Thanks umr ... I kinda feel like I did when the Fed's Greenspan would speak before Congress. It all sounded cool ... I understood some of it and actually learned something useful ... but most of it was way over my head. Do you have anything to offer re. the Signature Kuro's abilities at remote calibration?
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post #476 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

...Do you have anything to offer re. the Signature Kuro's abilities at remote calibration?

Remote calibration makes no sense to me.

1) The best instruments for this task need to be in your home. I do not see how this is going to happen without the person who knows how to use it there. Mine for example costs $24,000. I will not be mailing it to your home so you can use it.

2) Many things go wrong outside of the display. These include things like wiring, source configuration, source firmware errors, room lighting and positioning.

3) Many things go wrong besides what the instrument can see. These include things like source resolution, scaling, deinterlacing, enhancements, sharpness and near black details.

4) The final picture performance is what really matters and not some numbers. Someone who knows the look must confirm that the adjustments are really working well. When you know the look and see the same material many times a day you can tell when something is off and know you need to chase it down.
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post #477 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:43 PM
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I got it ... thanks. ... I guess remote A/V calibration is like the doctor diagnosing and treating the patient by phone. Oh well ... when are you coming to Thailand?
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post #478 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

I got it ... remote calibration is like the doctor diagnosing and treating the patient by phone.

Not really. All manufacturers are going this route. And I guarantee it's going to piss a lot of calibrators off.

BTW, the Signature series is fully capable of "reading" it's environment during remote calibration
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post #479 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HerbalEd View Post

Signature Kuro's abilities at remote calibration?

The only thing I can think of is the Signature series allows remote changes of settings. A person will call a number, this could be either automated or with a real person. The calibration will then be similar to when you go to the eye doctor. You're given a chart which shows what bluer looks like, redder, and greener. The settings are then changed and you give your responses. Then they ask, "what's brighter," etc. This goes on answering all their questions. Based on your responses what you're seeing, they can calculate a "rough estimate" of what changes need to be made based on your: preference, lighting, and other factors pertaining to you. I see this as then most likely if your wife calls in, she'll get mostly a result SHE likes. If you want a "look" you like, you'll have to do the "calibration." So pretty much I think you're getting a DVE Blu-ray calibration, but even simpler and automated.
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post #480 of 7982 Old 05-10-2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

It is hard to say what would be best for a display that does not exist. The gray scale, gamma and color adjustments in the Lumagen unit's has been superior to what is in the prior model Elite's.

I was mainly referring refering to the 8g's which you answered below in a response so thank you

I assume if the CMS was going to be greatly changed we'd heard it by now from D-Nice. I assume it'll be the same as last year with small changes.
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