The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 160 - AVS Forum
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post #4771 of 15008 Old 11-19-2008, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Bada bing. Ok, I'll bite.

Being able to "see" something is not exactly the same as "an issue". My point is there is no blurring or readability issue with text on my 6020. I can use my PS3 or 360 in Video Mode and read text all day with guests and have zero complaints about blur or clarity or I could do the same with a PC assuming I send the appropriate signal.

Using the HDMI PC mode makes text even better though for those with the superior visual acuity such as yourself.

You bite. Ouch

What I can see is an issue for me with a Display of this caliber.
I just want a display that does native display with clear dot by dot implementation. This one doesn't. My next display will. It would be nice if Pioneer made one. I hope they do in 2009.

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Well some calibrators even find the sharpness control marginally useful on some displays and for some content. My last pro calibrator, David Abrams found it useful on my 6020.

That's nice. It can help sharpen the fuzzy dots. I found Movie mode with some edge enhancement looks a bit better.

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It is amusing how these Pioneer Engineers sit down and come up with visual features that are clearly designed as you say only to detract from the image. Then as I posted earlier pro reviewers and calibrators don't even agree among themselves and some actually decide they occasionally prefer to use these features

The also came up with Sport, Dynamic, and all the other silly modes the primary purpose of which is to wow the folk in a showroom so they can sell panels. Do you watch it in dynamic mode? Why not, the engineers made it, it must be good.

Hey if a profession review likes it, who am I to complain about a poor dot by dot implementation

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I suppose you feel that Pioneer decided to stick NE Kuro owners with Enhancer mode 2 only to detract from their detail level. Amazingly then AVGuide for instance had a review up (which can still be found on google cache ) where a calibrator actually posts a reason for choosing Enhancer mode 2 on a Pro 1150:

Shocking.

I do not know what they were thinking, do you?
However, there seemed to be a concerted effort to differentiate the panels. One way, it seems, was to cripple the xx20's. That worked

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It's already been posted in this thread that a single pixel pattern needs Enhancer mode 1 to resolve properly. I'm sure it does. That's why it's fortunate that I'm not in the habit of watching single pixel patterns for entertainment.

I got it, you are happy with your panel. That is fine. However, that just makes the implementation OK by you. BTW, professional reviewers also check these panels ability to resolve detail. What are they thinking? Why not just site back and say, hey it looks good enough for me. Some people like facts. It is for those people, that I post here. Had I known this in advance, I might have made a different choice.

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Clearly as I said though you're a more demanding viewer. Just curious though, is that Lumagen external video processor you use one of these that cost as much or more by itself than a 6020?

If so then it's no wonder a 6020 can't make it pass your kids room.

Yep. That's the one. I do not use the Lumagen with this panel.
However, it might make sense to buy a DVDO edge, that is of course, that requires a very good dot by dot implementation

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post #4772 of 15008 Old 11-19-2008, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

The also came up with Sport, Dynamic, and all the other silly modes the primary purpose of which is to wow the folk in a showroom so they can sell panels. Do you watch it in dynamic mode? Why not, the engineers made it, it must be good.

- Rich

It's not that the modes 'must be good' but what I prefer to do is consider what the thinking and purpose was behind their choices. Actually the better I understood what the design ideas was behind those modes the more I was able to find at least some limited usefulness in most of them (not Dynamic though )

In the same way I found it interesting to look into possible reasons for the selection of enhancement mode 2. I notice you don't address the calibrator's reasoning or the reviewer's link I provided.


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Hey if a profession review likes it, who am I to complain about a poor dot by dot implementation

I do not know what they were thinking, do you?
However, there seemed to be a concerted effort to differentiate the panels. One way, it seems, was to cripple the xx20's. That worked

No question Pioneer tried hard, too hard perhaps to protect their higher margin Elite sales even while cutting their prices, no disagreement from me there. Still I think they did so more by giving the Elite more flexible choices than by making choices that would hurt the PQ of the standard Kuro.

I see that there was still some design reasonability to the built-in settings they did choose, that's my point.

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I got it, you are happy with your panel. That is fine. However, that just makes the implementation OK by you. BTW, professional reviewers also check these panels ability to resolve detail. What are they thinking? Why not just site back and say, hey it looks good enough for me. Some people like facts. It is for those people, that I post here. Had I known this in advance, I might have made a different choice.

Nothing to do with being happy with the panel, that's been settled long ago. This is in fact about the facts. If there is a real issue behind the complaint then let's examine it. If it's a big issue then let's call it a big issue. On the other hand if it's a small issue I prefer to call it a small issue.

I provided you reasons with supporting links and logic. I think that is facts. You on the other hand are essentially repeating the mantra "I want my perfect dot by dot". Ok, I think we get that too.

I have no problem with that, pull up your single pixel patterns and enjoy it where you can. NE owners though can also understand that there is some solid design logic behind the settings that are built in to the panel. Then with information in this thread some of owners are getting even more out of the displays than even what Pioneer intended.

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post #4773 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

Question: If I follow everything from D-Nice to the letter and I have an ISF guy who knows the ropes come in here and hit a 5020 with Control Cal and all that...what am I really going to be missing out on from the Elite?

2 color spaces (NEs are locked to CS1), tons of user controls (NR, color temp, gamma), ISF Day/Night modes enabling 50 fl+ brightness and what we're discussing now, the loss of enhancer option.

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post #4774 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

I suppose you feel that Pioneer decided to stick NE Kuro owners with Enhancer mode 2 only to detract from their detail level

I think Pioneer did this to avoid being called out on edge ehancement if that's really true about mode 1. Honestly considering where resolution ranks on the ISF display qualities chart (last) I don't think it's a big problem for the NEs as a TV.

I think it's fair to say that they are not recommendable for HTPC users though. Yes PC mode fixes the text but it's so horribly inacurate! That issue I showed you is extremely annoying and rules out movie mode for me with regards to any non video use.

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post #4775 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

You on the other hand are essentially repeating the mantra "I want my perfect dot by dot". Ok, I think we get that too.

Let me correct this statement:

The fact: the xx20 does not display crisp, clean dot by dot pixels in video mode.

This is something I require in a high-end panel.
In the future, I will not buy any panel that does perform well in dot by dot mode because perfect dot by dot is best for HTPC use and improves 1080I/P performance.

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post #4776 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 08:24 AM
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i have a htpc hooked up to my 5020 and have no problems with the text. what exactly is the problem with the xx20's on dot by dot that is bothering you guys so much?
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post #4777 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 09:06 AM
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My set is to video mode, trying enhancer mode 1 & 3 (2 is default) on 3 it's really blurred, to the point you can't read text. Like knocking the lens of a projector. But changing to 1 does remove the slight aliasing around the text in dot by dot mode, 1920x1080, DVI-HDMI (cleartype disabled) making text more finer. However mode 2 has hardly excessive aliasing, I wonder if the US sets have worse blurring? I heard the the US non Elites have noise reduction switched on which cannot be disabled- mine is UK LX-5090. I'd have no problems using it in mode 2 for text. I was viewing from about 6" away. As I said earlier it's like comparing cleartype, from 1.0 to 1.5. Really minute.

I'd say the brighter black level and blueish tint is far worse side effect, when using PC mode.

I may try sharpness test from DVD player, probably set to mode 2 also. On the UK forums it's recommended to leave to mode 2.

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post #4778 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Nothing to do with being happy with the [6020's] panel, that's been settled long ago. This is in fact about the facts. If there is a real issue behind the complaint then let's examine it. If it's a big issue then let's call it a big issue. On the other hand if it's a small issue I prefer to call it a small issue.

I provided you reasons with supporting links and logic. I think that is facts. You on the other hand are essentially repeating the mantra "I want my perfect dot by dot". Ok, I think we get that too.

I have no problem with that, pull up your single pixel patterns and enjoy it where you can. NE owners though can also understand that there is some solid design logic behind the settings that are built in to the panel. Then with information in this thread some of owners are getting even more out of the displays than even what Pioneer intended.

Dahlism - Like you, I have a 6020 and am delighted with it. Also like you, I never watch my display in dot-by-dot mode for entertainment - or for that matter much else. Thus, complaints about its implementation tend to make my eyes glaze over. I am at least as big an HT nerd and as obsessive as the next guy around here but even I have my limits.
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post #4779 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Dahlism – Like you, I have a 6020 and am delighted with it. Also like you, I never watch my display in dot-by-dot mode for entertainment – or for that matter much else. Thus, complaints about its implementation tend to make my eyes glaze over. I am at least as big an HT nerd and as obsessive as the next guy around here but even I have my limits.

Urr, let me clarify a bit gwsat.

Like you I am definitely enjoying the 6020 and in fact still exploring it's capabilities. On the other hand I must clarify I definitely DO use the Dot By Dot Mode whenever I have (true) 1080 resolution material.

Any Kuro owner should have no problem using it, especially for Blu-ray or HD DVD 1080 material. It provides a little bit sharper image for 1080 material. In some cases 1080i broadcast is not accurate and produces an odd underscanning line at the edges. In that case we can just switch to Full mode which still looks great.

The issue being discussed here is that if we test the NE dot by dot using a calibration pattern at the finest level (Single Pixel) we would see that it's not absolutely perfect because it uses Pioneer's "Enhancer mode 2".

If you examine my posts above you'll see that however that while some reccommend mode 1, mode 2 is actually the Kuro default and sometimes the reccommended mode by calibrators and users to use anyway. The default setting is also the one Pioneer fixed for the Non-Elite. The reason for this is that watching content is not necessarily the same as watching a single pixel calibration pattern.

What I said is that I don't watch calibration patterns for entertainment, I watch content. Reposted from above:

Quote:


It's already been posted in this thread that a single pixel pattern needs Enhancer mode 1 to resolve properly. I'm sure it does. That's why it's fortunate that I'm not in the habit of watching single pixel patterns for entertainment.

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With [Dot-By-Dot] mode engaged to attain 1:1 pixel mapping without overscan, the Pioneer PDP-LX5090 plasma HDTV successfully resolved all 1080 horizontal and 1920 vertical single-pixel-wide lines over HDMI, though the vertical ones were intersected with full-field horizontal interference. Over component, the results were slightly worse - even the vertical 2-pixel-wide lines exhibited some noisy interference.

Needless to say, these interferences did not materialise during normal viewing, simply because most real-world material do not subject the Pioneer PDP-LX5090 to the same level of stress as these test patterns do.

The point of the above post is this is an issue that is not visible (or perhaps barely visible) during normal viewing of movies etc. It's seen in a calibration pattern. This gives some users a very uneasy feeling whether they actually see a problem or not. IMHO that's sometimes downside of reading boards like this. You start imagining you have problems that often have little or no impact in the real world.

Feel free to enjoy your Kuro Dot By Dot Mode, Orbiter Mode 2.

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post #4780 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 10:46 AM
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I'm thinking of getting the 5020. Is this costco price a buy?
http://www.costco.com/Common/Categor...70*&lang=en-US
Thanks

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post #4781 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 10:58 AM
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I'm thinking of getting the 5020. Is this costco price a buy?
http://www.costco.com/Common/Categor...70*&lang=en-US
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unless you have to buy local, try some of the sponsors on this forum. i got my 5020 at plasmaconcepts.com for less than your listed price for costco before the $100 shipping.
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post #4782 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

I think it's fair to say that they are not recommendable for HTPC users though. Yes PC mode fixes the text but it's so horribly inacurate! That issue I showed you is extremely annoying and rules out movie mode for me with regards to any non video use.

We'll have to agree to somewhat disagree here.

Of course for all around usage with a PC a Plasma usually loses out to a good LCD anyway. That said I'd say this is a pretty solid set for PC usage. I have my main HTPC connected to my LCOS (kind of a souped up LCD ) in the same room.

The JVC is a little sharper of course but I see no huge advantage over the 6020 comparing the two esp. if you use HDMI rather than VGA. The Kuro is better on Black Level already so it could afford to give a little there and still hold it's own.


As to the inaccurate color I guess you mean the color temp? I've yet to see a computer monitor that was 'accurate' out of box with respect to REC 709 or even very close to a standard TV for video. This mode is meant to be more like a computer monitor (but 50 to 60 inches).

I don't know if you can even calibrate the grayscale for the HDMI PC Input mode and I not sure I'd really bother anyway. What might be nice to try is a high temp D75 type adjustment using the RGB settings and picture controls. Perhaps this could produce a nice alternative setting with it's own separate memory, all video processing off (clean single pixel ? ) , and no need to access the Service Menu.

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post #4783 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 11:41 AM
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I second plasmaconcepts.com. I got my tv about 3 weeks ago from them.

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unless you have to buy local, try some of the sponsors on this forum. i got my 5020 at plasmaconcepts.com for less than your listed price for costco before the $100 shipping.

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post #4784 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Urr, let me clarify a bit gwsat.

Like you I am definitely enjoying the 6020 and in fact still exploring it's capabilities. On the other hand I must clarify I definitely DO use the Dot By Dot Mode whenever I have (true) 1080 resolution material.

Any Kuro owner should have no problem using it, especially for Blu-ray or HD DVD 1080 material. It provides a little bit sharper image for 1080 material. In some cases 1080i broadcast is not accurate and produces an odd underscanning line at the edges. In that case we can just switch to Full mode which still looks great

Dahlsim -- OK, thanks for the tip. I had been using Full routinely because Dot-by-Dot, as you indicated, sometimes produces unsightly underscanning at the edges. I'll shift to Dot-by-Dot whenever I watch 1080i and, of course, when I watch 1080p BD movies. Still, my 6020's PQ has been great for HD shows and BD movies, even using the Full setting.
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post #4785 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Dahlsim -- OK, thanks for the tip. I had been using Full routinely because Dot-by-Dot, as you indicated, sometimes produces unsightly underscanning at the edges. I'll shift to Dot-by-Dot whenever I watch 1080i and, of course, when I watch 1080p BD movies. Still, my 6020's PQ has been great for HD shows and BD movies, even using the Full setting.

one thing i didnt like about my 5020 is the fact that while going from full to dot-by-dot takes one button press, going from d-b-d to full takes quite a few presses or bringing up the tools menu.
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post #4786 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 02:29 PM
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This has probably been answered before, but how do you turn the gray bars black when the widescreen and full screen bars are showing?
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post #4787 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 04:31 PM
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I Just picked up my 5020 at BB. They matched the current Amazon price, but I do have to pay tax. Only good thing is 30 day price match and 3yr interest free.

I'm a little bummed. Pioneer did not give me the screws or speaker wire for instalation of speaker. Kinda lame for a unit of this price. Box was sealed.

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post #4788 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexInvision View Post

This has probably been answered before, but how do you turn the gray bars black when the widescreen and full screen bars are showing?

The only way you can change it is with controlcal.

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post #4789 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

2 color spaces (NEs are locked to CS1), tons of user controls (NR, color temp, gamma), ISF Day/Night modes enabling 50 fl+ brightness and what we're discussing now, the loss of enhancer option.

So if this is the case why did you perfer to pick 5020 over lets say the 800u which has full picture controls ?. I hear the pic on the 800u is very close to the 5020.
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post #4790 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 07:16 PM
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So if this is the case why did you perfer to pick 5020 over lets say the 800u which has full picture controls ?. I hear the pic on the 800u is very close to the 5020.

The 800U does not have full picture controls. It has close to the same number of controls as the 5020 (maybe a little more or less), but it has service menu grayscale settings, just like the 5020. It just has THX mode, which has pretty accurate primary colors.

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post #4791 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

The 800U does not have full picture controls. It has close to the same number of controls as the 5020 (maybe a little more or less), but it has service menu grayscale settings, just like the 5020. It just has THX mode, which has pretty accurate primary colors.


So i take it you would perfer the 5020 over 800u ?
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post #4792 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 07:27 PM
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So i take it you would perfer the 5020 over 800u ?

I would. And if it came down to it, I'd take the Samsung A550 or A650 over the 800U. People think that THX mode is an end all mode. It ISN'T. Check out the flat-panel shootout (posted on the general FP forum)

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post #4793 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 10:01 PM
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Can you experts give me some ball park settings to use for the break-in for the 5020. I downloaded and burned the break-in dvd already. Should I just play it continuously for a while. So far I a have zoomed all my blu-ray titles to get rid of the 2.35 bars. I'm currently in movie mode. Thanks

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post #4794 of 15008 Old 11-20-2008, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexInvision
This has probably been answered before, but how do you turn the gray bars black when the widescreen and full screen bars are showing?

The only way you can change it is with controlcal.

To get the Kuro to do it directly that's correct. The easier choice is to set your cable box or DVD player etc. to send all signals at 1080i or 1080p. This will cause it fill in the 4:3 image as needed with black although some boxes fill with gray and some give an option. Setting the Kuro on FULL mode then gives you a black vertical letterboxed effect.

You will get black bars on the top bottom as needed anyway. It's said that vertical letterboxing has more chance of producing IR/Burn-in than horizontal letterboxing. Because of this manufacturers often fill in vertically with gray so the pixels continue to get a more even wear.

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post #4795 of 15008 Old 11-21-2008, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dcast01 View Post

So if this is the case why did you perfer to pick 5020 over lets say the 800u which has full picture controls ?. I hear the pic on the 800u is very close to the 5020.

Because this years' Panasonic has a hazy quality to it and the blacks are not nearly deep enough. Other than slighlty more accurate color points and the NR/Color temp adjustments it doesn't have much going for it compared to the NEs. I had a 85U before the 5020 and did not want an "accurate" 85U after seeing one and not being impressed.

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post #4796 of 15008 Old 11-21-2008, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

We'll have to agree to somewhat disagree here.

Of course for all around usage with a PC a Plasma usually loses out to a good LCD anyway. That said I'd say this is a pretty solid set for PC usage. I have my main HTPC connected to my LCOS (kind of a souped up LCD ) in the same room.

The JVC is a little sharper of course but I see no huge advantage over the 6020 comparing the two esp. if you use HDMI rather than VGA. The Kuro is better on Black Level already so it could afford to give a little there and still hold it's own.


As to the inaccurate color I guess you mean the color temp? I've yet to see a computer monitor that was 'accurate' out of box with respect to REC 709 or even very close to a standard TV for video. This mode is meant to be more like a computer monitor (but 50 to 60 inches).

I don't know if you can even calibrate the grayscale for the HDMI PC Input mode and I not sure I'd really bother anyway. What might be nice to try is a high temp D75 type adjustment using the RGB settings and picture controls. Perhaps this could produce a nice alternative setting with it's own separate memory, all video processing off (clean single pixel ? ) , and no need to access the Service Menu.

I've tried tweaking via the RBG controls, you can get an accurate white point out of it but nothing else. All the colors seem way too oversaturated. I found these settings in the 8G Kuro thread Red +3 Green 0 Blue -15. It makes it a lot more bearable.

Anyways this will be my last post on the issue until I can take pictures. I don't want to start any wars here, I just think it's important people know that the TV can't draw a single pixel line and that it has color issue viewing PC content in video modes.

Be a fan of displays, not companies or technologies!
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post #4797 of 15008 Old 11-21-2008, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

one thing i didnt like about my 5020 is the fact that while going from full to dot-by-dot takes one button press, going from d-b-d to full takes quite a few presses or bringing up the tools menu.

As a result of your tip about Dot-by-Dot, I changed the default screen size setting on my 6020 from Full to Dot-by-Dot, both for HD cable programming and BDs. I think that it may help marginally on BDs and it didn't cause white lines on one side of the picture so I plan on leaving it there. The experiment was less successful with respect to HD cable programming, though. More often than not, even first run shows, Life for example, have the narrow white line along the edge of the screen. Because the difference in PQ between Dot-by-Dot and Full was nearly unnoticeable, to me at least, and the white lines bothered me, I have changed the default screen size for cable programming back to Full. Thanks again for the tip.
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post #4798 of 15008 Old 11-21-2008, 07:23 AM
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I Just picked up my 5020 at BB. They matched the current Amazon price, but I do have to pay tax. Only good thing is 30 day price match and 3yr interest free.

I'm a little bummed. Pioneer did not give me the screws or speaker wire for instalation of speaker. Kinda lame for a unit of this price. Box was sealed.
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Jay, i had a hard time finding stuff for speaker also. pretty small package taped to 1 of the boxes. i'd recheck boxes. Good luck !

as far as break-in, i think there are links at beginning of thread. i didn't do anything special, just watched what i wanted, some SD (stretched first couple of weeks) but mostly HD Theater in fullscreen & haven't noticed any IR or burn-in. if you use DVD & let it run unattended you may want to check option in setup menu to have it turn off automatically w/ no operation or no input in case your DVD has any issue or becomes stuck on 1 screen.
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post #4799 of 15008 Old 11-21-2008, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tubby View Post

Can you experts give me some ball park settings to use for the break-in for the 5020. I downloaded and burned the break-in dvd already. Should I just play it continuously for a while. So far I a have zoomed all my blu-ray titles to get rid of the 2.35 bars. I'm currently in movie mode. Thanks

Look at the very first post in this thread.
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post #4800 of 15008 Old 11-21-2008, 08:18 AM
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Thanks guys. Wow! this picture is incredible!
Do the different inputs remember their individual picture settings or if I change one picture setting on one input will it change for all of them. Thanks.

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