The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 01:58 PM
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I noticed in the .pdf for the 151, a 'color sensor'. I've never seen that in the prior Elites and I assume it's a new feature. Of course the only problem is that it comes in to play with the "Optimum" mode...not the best. I wonder if this was done in the 150 via an internal sensor?
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post #632 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I wonder if this was done in the 150 via an internal sensor?

Nope.
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post #633 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 02:11 PM
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D-Nice, any practical benefit given its operation in Optimum mode?
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post #634 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

D-Nice, any practical benefit given its operation in Optimum mode?

Better color characteristics based on your room.
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post #635 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Is he playing football for the NY Giants?

I'm looking forward to seeing them "repeat" this year on my PRO-150FD.

Looks like your Kuro & G-men will be sans Strahan.

Growing Older But Not Up
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post #636 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

Also, if the oppo 980 can output 480i via HDMI that would even be better.

So just to get this straight. When the tv is doing the upconverting the status line is still going to display what the original signal is? It isn't going to tell you that it upconverted it? With the exception of noticing a better picture, is there anyway to know that the tv is doing the upconverting?
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post #637 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jgreeson View Post

You're completely missing the fact that there is a new download on the website that has all of the images that are displayed in the DVD in JPEG format. From there, you can run a slideshow of those images in a folder on a USB drive to run your break-in.

I don't know if this will be an issue with the 6020 and 5020 but I tried this last week on my 5010FD. The problem I had was that although the images played fine, there was a small blue border around the image (about 3/4"). Regardless of the screen size I tried, I was unable to get rid of this border. This border was also there with other JPEGs I tried so I assume it is built into the coding of the Media Gallery. I ended up ordering the DVD from Evangelos via the link noted. Since I didn't have the ablility to burn a DVD it was worth the $6.95.
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post #638 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 04:20 PM
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D-Nice,

Did you get a replacement 6020 yet?

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
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post #639 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 04:38 PM
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Well after breaking in my 6020 the past 5 days I ran a quick HCFR calibration before running off to work this morning using just the regular user controls, since the 8G service menu access code would not work on my panel. I am using a Spyder 2 sensor with a Get Gray disc fed into my A2 via hdmi at 1080i. I tried 480i, but the picture was way smoother on 1080i scaled to 1080p via dot to dot mode. I set the white level at 35ftL and the black level at .231ftL on a 10% grey window. I know the Spyder 2 is not that accurate with low luminance levels, so I double checked my black level with a grey stepped ramp. Looked good to my eyes with all the proper visable steps present in the ramp. I finished my color adjustments in the CIE chart where green and red are running high, while blue is spot on. Did I mention I neeed the access code for the service menu and RGB controls? I then ran a Gray Scale test and found a fairly straight line, but not at 6500k. I was close at 6250k, but obviously there is room for improvement. I have attached my color temp chart for those who are interested. One thing I came accross that was a little odd to me was that once I hit 35ftL on HCFR with the contrast at 41 on the set no adjustment above 41 would raise the white level. I tried other modes like standard or sports which produced 40ftL, but it really compromised the gray scale. Don't get me wrong the set has lot's of punch with 35ftL, but it would be nice to have some head room down the road with an older set. This display is replacing a 7 year old HD RPcrt that had great black levels and I can safely say that the Kuro lives up to all the hype. I watch movies in a very dark room and the idle luminance of the Kuro is not distracting while watching in this low light enviorment. Is it perfect, no, but plenty good enough for my movie watching. The great black levels I was expecting, but what really impressed me about this set was the processing. Every type of video I throw at this set looks better than my smaller Hitachi panel(32') and my Panny 9uk(42"). There is just less noise, color banding and dithering on lesser sources that prove so challenging on digital displays. The only negative comment I have on this set is at 13' I can still hear a slight buzz in a totally silent room, but that buzz disappers once I turn on any other device like my sat box or A2. That's it for now.................
LL
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post #640 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rol View Post

Well after breaking in my 6020 the past 5 days I ran a quick HCFR calibration before running off to work this morning using just the regular user controls, since the 8G service menu access code would not work on my panel. I am using a Spyder 2 sensor with a Get Gray disc fed into my A2 via hdmi at 1080i. I tried 480i, but the picture was way smoother on 1080i scaled to 1080p via dot to dot mode. I set the white level at 35ftL and the black level at .231ftL on a 10% grey window. I know the Spyder 2 is not that accurate with low luminance levels, so I double checked my black level with a grey stepped ramp. Looked good to my eyes with all the proper visable steps present in the ramp. I finished my color adjustments in the CIE chart where green and red are running high, while blue is spot on. Did I mention I neeed the access code for the service menu and RGB controls? I then ran a Gray Scale test and found a fairly straight line, but not at 6500k. I was close at 6250k, but obviously there is room for improvement. I have attached my color temp chart for those who are interested. One thing I came accross that was a little odd to me was that once I hit 35ftL on HCFR with the contrast at 41 on the set no adjustment above 41 would raise the white level. I tried other modes like standard or sports which produced 40ftL, but it really compromised the gray scale. Don't get me wrong the set has lot's of punch with 35ftL, but it would be nice to have some head room down the road with an older set. This display is replacing a 7 year old HD RPcrt that had great black levels and I can safely say that the Kuro lives up to all the hype. I watch movies in a very dark room and the idle luminance of the Kuro is not distracting while watching in this low light enviorment. Is it perfect, no, but plenty good enough for my movie watching. The great black levels I was expecting, but what really impressed me about this set was the processing. Every type of video I throw at this set looks better than my smaller Hitachi panel(32') and my Panny 9uk(42"). There is just less noise, color banding and dithering on lesser sources that prove so challenging on digital displays. The only negative comment I have on this set is at 13' I can still hear a slight buzz in a totally silent room, but that buzz disappers once I turn on any other device like my sat box or A2. That's it for now.................


Thanks for the review.

Once you gain access to the SM you should be able to get that
color temp closer to the industry standard(6500K).

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post #641 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 05:07 PM
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Thanks. I guess I'll make sure my brother can come and help me assemble and lift it into place.

My wife and put the stand together. We put a few blankets on the couch and the screen face down on top of the blankets. She held the TV while I screwed in the base. Then we set it on the stand with a grunt out of the wife.
She only weights 110lbs...

-kkgsxr
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post #642 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 05:14 PM
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Rol welcome to the forum quick suggestion please space lol excellent review but not everyone can or wants to read as much as some of us hardcore kuro fans


luvnhatesony i gotta disagree with him robert who saw an 8g elite and a 9g elite said otherwise so by this i mean no disrespect to him but robert and d-nice said it would be a noticeable inprovement and if thats not enough do the test to your self.


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Originally Posted by luvnhateSony View Post

So your saying if you owned a 110 and replaced it with a 111 you wouldnt notice that much of a difference?

D-nice I got confirmation on the PRO-111FD schld to arrive in bestbuy on june 29th




ylnad forget anything bro just run the oppo 980 hdmi to the kuro directly and you'll benefit from the kuro upconverting/scaling

Quote:
Originally Posted by ylnad123 View Post

So just to get this straight. When the tv is doing the upconverting the status line is still going to display what the original signal is? It isn't going to tell you that it upconverted it? With the exception of noticing a better picture, is there anyway to know that the tv is doing the upconverting?


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post #643 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 05:28 PM
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I popped in to note my impressions of the 6020,6010,50PZ800U and 58PZ750U I saw almost side-by-side in my local store, in a relatively dark room. The Panasonics and the 6020 we arranged in a pi shape, the 750U being the center and the 6020 on the left, whereas the 6010 was exactly on the 6020's back facing the other way. They were all fed with 300 on Bluray.

I couldn't tell much difference between the 6020 and 6010 apart from the 6010's skin tones looking slightly more red (brown in 300's lighting). Pricing for the 6020 was +1k than 6010, not sure if justified, probably not. On the Panasonics now, I have to say that the new one is a big improvement, however it is true that the Pioneer has better blacks but not by that much. I feel that the new Pioneers need to be priced competitively to sell well, they don't stand out as much as they did last year.
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post #644 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Better color characteristics based on your room.

But only in Optimum mode correct?
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post #645 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 06:08 PM
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cdled while i agree everyone has their opinon and what not i take it you hav not read this review

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4103





Quote:
Originally Posted by cdled View Post

I popped in to note my impressions of the 6020,6010,50PZ800U and 58PZ750U I saw almost side-by-side in my local store, in a relatively dark room. The Panasonics and the 6020 we arranged in a pi shape, the 750U being the center and the 6020 on the left, whereas the 6010 was exactly on the 6020's back facing the other way. They were all fed with 300 on Bluray.

I couldn't tell much difference between the 6020 and 6010 apart from the 6010's skin tones looking slightly more red (brown in 300's lighting). Pricing for the 6020 was +1k than 6010, not sure if justified, probably not. On the Panasonics now, I have to say that the new one is a big improvement, however it is true that the Pioneer has better blacks but not by that much. I feel that the new Pioneers need to be priced competitively to sell well, they don't stand out as much as they did last year.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherhole View Post

So I went to South Coast Mall here in So Cal and checked out the 6020 next to the 5010. First things first, in regards to black levels - there indeed is a difference. At first glance I couldn't really tell, but after sitting down and with very brief glancing back and forth the differences became truly obvious. The blacks indeed are blacker on the 9th gen. The most obvious point where one could tell the black level difference was when the black screen with the Blu-ray logo on the demo they ran appeared. Comparing directly, the 8th gen has a slightly bluer tint to the blacks. The blacks seemed to have disappeared better on the 6020. The other thing I noticed was the color reproduction; the colors were a tad deeper all around. the 6020 looked more rich and had a bit more depth to the image. The peak brightness seemed about the same. Shadow detail and such looked fantastic. The shadows looked a bit more realistic on the faces displayed on the 9th gen. There were plenty of sequences in the demo with tons of black on the screen and plenty of contrast that really showed what the set was able to do with mixed contrast images.

Overall, I am VERY impressed with the 9th gen set compared directly with the 8th gen. And to those saying that you likely wouldn't be able to tell a difference when they are separated, I believe that to be highly unlikely. The blacks have been improved a decent amount that those who've owned an 8th gen would likely be able to easily appreciate the difference when they get the 9th gen home.

This truly makes me excited for when my 151 comes home.

Also, the girl I talked to said they are expecting the 151's in 2-3 weeks.


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post #646 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ylnad123 View Post

So just to get this straight. When the tv is doing the upconverting the status line is still going to display what the original signal is?

Yes. What else do you need to know?

Quote:


It isn't going to tell you that it upconverted it?

I don't know of any fixed pixel TV that reports that is is displaying it's native resolution.

Quote:


With the exception of noticing a better picture, is there anyway to know that the tv is doing the upconverting?

Your TV can't do anything else. If it's not able to convert all inputs to 1080p then it will not be working. You will know immediately that something is wrong.
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post #647 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cdled View Post

I popped in to note my impressions of the 6020,6010,50PZ800U and 58PZ750U I saw almost side-by-side in my local store, in a relatively dark room. The Panasonics and the 6020 we arranged in a pi shape, the 750U being the center and the 6020 on the left, whereas the 6010 was exactly on the 6020's back facing the other way. They were all fed with 300 on Bluray.

I couldn't tell much difference between the 6020 and 6010 apart from the 6010's skin tones looking slightly more red (brown in 300's lighting). Pricing for the 6020 was +1k than 6010, not sure if justified, probably not. On the Panasonics now, I have to say that the new one is a big improvement, however it is true that the Pioneer has better blacks but not by that much. I feel that the new Pioneers need to be priced competitively to sell well, they don't stand out as much as they did last year.

There shouldn't be a $1000 price difference between the 6010 and 6020. One of the forum sponsors I talked to even had the 6020 for several hundred less than the 6010 (and that was if he could even get a 6010).

I completely disagree with you about PQ in regards to the new Pannys vs Pioneer. While the new pannys have improved blacks levels, they still don't even come close to the 8G's, imo... let alone the 9G's.

The excellent black levels, clean processing and deep colors really stood out to me on the KUROs. The depth of the picture on a KURO is simply unmatched to my eye. Also, while the panny might have looked pretty good with a blu-ray, it can't clean up an inferior source near as well as a Kuro. I compared an 800U with a 6010 (both being fed a store loop via coaxial) and the difference was night and day - the KURO cleaned up the loop infinitely better.

I have also recently bought and returned an 85U that just wasn't cutting it after I took it home and played with it. To be frank, I thought my Samsung 5053 had a better PQ - a more vibrant and deep image (both on a standard picture mode; not torched).

The 9G's are priced more competitively than last year and, imo, stand out plenty. Now, whether these differences add up to several thousand dollars is another story and up to you.

Kuro'd
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post #648 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 06:41 PM
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As someone else mentioned before, it says a lot when none of the competition's current displays can even compete with Pioneer's last gen.

Kuro'd
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post #649 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

cdled while i agree everyone has their opinon and what not i take it you hav not read this review

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4103

I don't think his conclusions are all that different. I did like the 6020 more but didn't peek as much I guess. My point is that the Panasonics appear more improved (in a relative sense) and pricing will be important for sales. Last year I remember the 5080 stood out easily on a wall even in a bright place such as best buy. This may not be the case now from what I've seen although the viewing conditions may not have been optimal. However, Pioneer is the one ultimately responsible if stores are not doing its product justice. At this store the Samsung 750 series LCD displays only select content.

ps. On the other hand let me also note that all the local Apple stores have had a 4280 hooked up with an Apple TV in the past few weeks. That is good advertisement, but alas no plasma 42" in 2008.
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post #650 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 07:14 PM
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well if it makes you feel any better in store demo is not a good judgement but what makes it soo good for bestbuy to have it is that one im going to be paying employee cost and two it will be very very soon. all i hope is that theirs is no step back maybe in delay shipment by pioneer and my bud's come through

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post #651 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 07:27 PM
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First of all - I noticed that the Pio 6020's doesn't have a native VGA connector so I guess if I want to connect a HTPC to my new Pioneer 6020 on the way it will have to be via HDMI....does anyone have any experience with it? Anyone connect a PC via HDMI and how does it overscan or does it fit right?

Also I keep hearing about this break-in DVD - where can I buy that or get it?

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post #652 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 07:31 PM
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the break in disc you can get it for free d/l and you can burn it to a cd or a dvd, if you dont have a burner then you can buy it for under $7.

i belive the 6020 do have a pc input i dont know much about the htpc nor i have the 6020 so i cant really say anything, i'd suggest asking current 6020 members how it works out? i used to put my pc hdmi to dvi on my 42px75u panny that does not have pc input and it does have overscan But this is not to say that its the same results as the pioneer!


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Originally Posted by audiovideo View Post

First of all - I noticed that the Pio 6020's doesn't have a native VGA connector so I guess if I want to connect a HTPC to my new Pioneer 6020 on the way it will have to be via HDMI....does anyone have any experience with it? Anyone connect a PC via HDMI and how does it overscan or does it fit right?

Also I keep hearing about this break-in DVD - where can I buy that or get it?


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post #653 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

Rol welcome to the forum quick suggestion please space lol excellent review but not everyone can or wants to read as much as some of us hardcore kuro fans


luvnhatesony i gotta disagree with him robert who saw an 8g elite and a 9g elite said otherwise so by this i mean no disrespect to him but robert and d-nice said it would be a noticeable inprovement and if thats not enough do the test to your self.




D-nice I got confirmation on the PRO-111FD schld to arrive in bestbuy on june 29th




ylnad forget anything bro just run the oppo 980 hdmi to the kuro directly and you'll benefit from the kuro upconverting/scaling

Im confident, especially based on what Robert himself witnessed, that once I have the 111 at my home I will see whatever notable improvement over the 110.

Looks like since your in CA your BB Mag's probably have the perk of being one the first to get the 111's. I tried asking the manager at my local BB when they can expect there shipment of 111's and he said he actually spoke to his pioneer rep recently, specificly about the shipment of the 111's, and they suposedly told him they didnt know

I dont understand how his pioneer rep couldnt even give him a ball park as to when to expect them I guess I'll just have to continue to wait....
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post #654 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 07:39 PM
 
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It just proves the point that timing depends on the region, distributors and other factors.
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post #655 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 07:40 PM
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I agree that in-store demos are not the best to get the most accurate results. In my case, when I compared the 5010 to the 6020, both were in store, right next to each other, so both were on equal playing grounds and I was told by the employee helping me that the settings were as close to the same as possible (probably hinting to some limitations between one or both sets).

Admittedly I wanted to do some tweaking to both sets to get it closer to the settings I would expect at home, but I also got the chance to go to Best Buy after my experience at South Coast Plaza's Pioneer store to take some time playing with the settings of their Pro110 set. I asked the BB Employee to see the Elite hooked up directly to a Blu-ray feed instead of the mass feed that they were sending via component to all but one TV. He kindly hooked up a Panny DMP-BD30 and started up the first episode of Planet Earth. Next I asked to see the remote to be able to play with some of the settings. I dug up D-Nice's settings for the 110/150 and inputted them and just stared profusely at the screen noting everything I could about the set.

I was at Best Buy for more than an hour, not bothered by anyone, able to enjoy my time with the set which reaffirmed my decision to switch from the XBR5 to the Pro151. With the blacks as dark as they were while I was testing the 110 at BB I was just grinning, imagining the slightly inkier blacks along with slightly richer colors that I will be getting with the 151.

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post #656 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 07:44 PM
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luvnhatesony i dont know how but my post that i quoted didnt end up with your post.... but my quote here is what i wanted to respond towards you...


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Originally Posted by luvnhateSony View Post

Im confident, especially based on what Robert himself witnessed, that once I have the 111 at my home I will see whatever notable improvement over the 110.

Looks like since your in CA your BB Mag's probably have the perk of being one the first to get the 111's. I tried asking the manager at my local BB when they can expect there shipment of 111's and he said he actually spoke to his pioneer rep recently, specificly about the shipment of the 111's, and they suposedly told him they didnt know

I dont understand how his pioneer rep couldnt even give him a ball park as to when to expect them I guess I'll just have to continue to wait....

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Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

well if it makes you feel any better in store demo is not a good judgement but what makes it soo good for bestbuy to have it is that one im going to be paying employee cost and two it will be very very soon. all i hope is that theirs is no step back maybe in delay shipment by pioneer and my bud's come through


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post #657 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DAMAC View Post

I agree. Keep the back straight and bend those knees. That is what I try to do, anyway.

Otherwise known as a squat.
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post #658 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FocusedOne View Post

) ... and the difference was night and day ...

I hope you don't get the same bashing as the last person that used this figure of speach lol!!

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post #659 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Aetherhole View Post

I agree that in-store demos are not the best to get the most accurate results. In my case, when I compared the 5010 to the 6020, both were in store, right next to each other, so both were on equal playing grounds and I was told by the employee helping me that the settings were as close to the same as possible (probably hinting to some limitations between one or both sets).

Aetherhole...you don't know what preset mode the 6020 was on? I am still trying to decide between the 5010 I have now or ordering the 5020 from a forum sponsor as the difference in cost would be negligible. After viewing the 6020 today next to the 6010 I came to the conclusion that it will be very hard to get a true fair comparison between the sets. The only preset mode on the 6020 that had both DRE OFF and Black Level OFF was Game Mode so I used this mode to compare it to the 6010 with D-Nice settings that include both DRE OFF and Black Level OFF. In game setting for the 6020 and D-Nice settings on the 6010 I really could not tell a difference in black levels or shadow detail and trust me I was looking really hard. I changed the 6020 to Performance mode and the blacks did become noticeably blacker but changing the 6010 DRE to MID and Black Level ON also resulted in blacker blacks comparable to the 6020. The other thing I have concerns about the 9G non elite series is even after we find out how to enter the SM and change the offsets, what good are the offsets if we can't change the color temp setting? (low,mid,high) because the SM offsets are only suppose to be used with color temp of mid. Below is the table D-Nice posted that the 9G non-elites will have for settings that cannot be altered.


A/V Mode ---- DRE --- Black Level --- ACL --- Enhancer --- Gamma --- CTI

Dynamic------ High ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Performance-- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Movie-------- Off -------- On ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 1 ------ On
Sports------- Mid -------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Game-------- Off -------- Off ------- Off ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On
Standard----- Mid ------- On ------- On ------- 2 ---------- 2 ------ On



I really would like to know if the 5020 has a significant improvement in black levels to offset the handicapped 9G non-elite menus. By what I saw today I would say no but other reports are saying different. If you do get to see them side by side can you please state what mode the 5020 or 6020 was in when comparing.
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post #660 of 15008 Old 06-09-2008, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by cdled View Post

I popped in to note my impressions of the 6020,6010,50PZ800U and 58PZ750U I saw almost side-by-side in my local store, in a relatively dark room. The Panasonics and the 6020 we arranged in a pi shape, the 750U being the center and the 6020 on the left, whereas the 6010 was exactly on the 6020's back facing the other way. They were all fed with 300 on Bluray.

I couldn't tell much difference between the 6020 and 6010 apart from the 6010's skin tones looking slightly more red (brown in 300's lighting). Pricing for the 6020 was +1k than 6010, not sure if justified, probably not. On the Panasonics now, I have to say that the new one is a big improvement, however it is true that the Pioneer has better blacks but not by that much. I feel that the new Pioneers need to be priced competitively to sell well, they don't stand out as much as they did last year.

This is the kind of comparison I was curious about. I had a feeling that there wouldnt be that much difference between the 8g and 9g. Im sure that there is improvement but nothing earth shattering. They have taken away some of the options/settings on the 9g also.
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