The Official Pioneer 9G non-Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 340 - AVS Forum
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post #10171 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by UTSoxFan View Post

What are the appropriate/best PureCinema settings for the following sources: HD cable, SD DVD, and Blu Ray?

Unfortunately this is a topic that creates alot of controversy. I'll answer what I do. There are two scenarios:

1) Your TV is not Calibrated
- HD Cable - Standard, or Advanced (your choice)
- SD DVD - Same as above
- Blu Ray - If you can set your blu-ray player to 24fps, then you should use Advanced.

I only use SMOOTH in SPORT mode watching Hockey

2) Your TV is Calibrated in Movie Mode with Pure Cinema - OFF
- HD Cable - Standard, Off (I prefer OFF)
- Standard DVD - Same as above
- Blu-Ray - with 24fps - set it to OFF

Since calibration I normally leave it on OFF.
I only use SMOOTH in SPORT mode watching Hockey

Here comes the debate. LOL
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post #10172 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 09:14 AM
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Yes, but that link doesn't suggest that TV broadcasts, as received through your STB, would have the cadence to trigger 72Hz mode.
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post #10173 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 09:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandMasterJ View Post

I used the before/after break-in settings provided by D-Nice to watch Wall-E fullscreen. There's no static images, so this wouldn't hurt the TV in that manner. However the only "issue" I can think of would be that, without the constant fullscreen colors like the break-in images, the phosphors would not age in as uniform a manner. My bet is that, in 150 hours of break-in patterns from now, this won't make a difference.



That was exactly the reason I was asking. The screen, during the full 150 hours, is displaying the images less than if it switched between them. I really didn't want to leave the PS3 on for 150 hours straight, though...

And now a question about an issue that I have never heard of before...
I went to check on the break-in late last night before going to bed. As I watched the colors change, it all seemed fine, but when it hit the red colors I saw in the upper left corner what looked like a "dead pixel." However, it only stayed "dead" for 3 seconds before switching to red. When it switched to the next red pattern it did the same thing. I sped up the slide show rate to change every 3 seconds and after about 10 minutes it stopped doing this. The same pixel (and yes, a full pixel, not a sub-pixel) did NOT appear "dead" on any other color.

This morning did not evidence this behavior.

What happened? Is it liable to come back?

I think what you're experiencing *is* an intermittently failing subpixel; the component of the cell that is responsible for emitting red. I have one that has never emitted green since I powered on the set and also have a secondary green subpixel that is failing intermittently (it resolves temporarily when it is "excercised" akin to what you did with the slideshow or when the voltage is temporarily increased through the service menu).

It may very well come back but there's also a (IMO) slim chance you may never see it again.
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post #10174 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

Yes, but that link doesn't suggest that TV broadcasts, as received through your STB, would have the cadence to trigger 72Hz mode.

Most movies and series content on television are film-sourced (a) 720p24 with repeat bits to create 720p60 output from the STB, or (b) 1080p24 interlaced into 1080i48, with repeat bits to provide 1080i60 output from the STB.

There is a very strong incentive for content providers, broadcasters, and cable companies to encode this way -- it saves bandwidth, allowing them to add more channels and services. Their encoders detect 24p and encode as 1080i60 with repeat bits as a means to save bandwidth.

Some encoders do a better job of 1080p24 detection as others. If one of your local broadcast affiliates is still using one of the oldest encoders, then it may not do a very good job of this (if it does it at all). Some television programs also mix video and film-sourced content, which can cause trouble for encoders and film detection in TVs. And there's always a good bit of video content in the form of commercials, forcing video processors to switch between video and film modes on the fly; some processors are able to switch modes faster than others.

Pioneer's PureCinema (1080p24 detection) is not infallible. If you use Advanced Mode, you'll see instances where the content temporarily switches from a film source to a video source, and the Pioneer remains locked in 72Hz mode. The current PureCinema implemention is an improvement over the previous generation, but it's still a significant step down from some third-party video processors ($$$$). Several of these products have a dedicated light for 24p detection, and you see it lit for most high-definition programs on CBS, NBC, HBO, Showtime, etc.
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post #10175 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

"2:3 pulldown at 60fps" is achieved on the Kuro in PC Mode Standard and Off?

I believe what most people want to know, at least I do, is what PC mode can the TV be left on all the the time for TV viewing, like TV shows? Or is the problem that just using one PC Mode is bad, induces anomalies, etc., for some TV content? Thanks.

If PC is off, you get motion-adaptive (video) deinterlace which isn't able to reproduce the full resolution of film sources. On the other hand, you avoid the possibility that video is detected as film; you avoid instances where the source material switches from film to video, while the Pioneer remains temporarily locked in film mode.

The benefit of Standard over Advanced is that it always ignores (i.e. disables PC) 720p60 channels like ABC, FOX, ESPN, ESPN2, and ESPNews. With Standard enabled, 720p channels always get the maximum resolution possible on film-sourced content (since no deinterlace is necessary), and there's no possibility that video is detected as film. Of course, this assumes that you have a STB or DVR that is able to output 720p channels as 720p and 1080i channels as 1080i; DVRs from DirecTV, Scientific Atlanta, and TiVo can do this, while DVRs from Dish Network and Motorola cannot.
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post #10176 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I think what you're experiencing *is* an intermittently failing subpixel; the component of the cell that is responsible for emitting red. I have one that has never emitted green since I powered on the set and also have a secondary green subpixel that is failing intermittently (it resolves temporarily when it is "excercised" akin to what you did with the slideshow or when the voltage is temporarily increased through the service menu).

It may very well come back but there's also a (IMO) slim chance you may never see it again.

Thanks for the reply, Vinnie. And, in my opinion, that sucks. I noticed it instantly when it appeared and hope I never see it again...it's the type of issue that will nag me for the life of the set if it permanently fails.

Your intermittently failing pixel...does it do this during a movie? It seems like, with the constant scene changes, that it would be constantly "exercised."

A couple of other things I noticed that I thought I should mention is...the buzzing decreased in volume about 3 hours into the break-in process. I don't know why and I'm happy about this. While watching a movie, I really can't notice it. During the break-in slide show in a quiet full-wood room, it is still quite audible...but while watching content (at least with constant audio) I really can't pick it up over the audio.

And...image retention...I thought these sets were extremely resistant! I switched from the USB break-in slides to the break-in DVD. I then went into the menu for about 2 minutes to make sure that the settings were still correct upon switching inputs. The little square of DVD content that continues to play on the right side of the TV was retained for about 1.5 minutes after I quit out of the menu! That was far too easy to get image retention! I expect to one day game on this TV!

Will I see a large difference in the possibility of this ever happening after the break-in is finished? Due to using the slides, I estimate about 14-16 hours of break-in had occurred by this point.
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post #10177 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 11:10 AM
 
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Yea, that slight image retention is standard and nothing to fear. As you progress further into break-in, the set becomes less susceptible to it.

Regarding my intermittent subpixel failure, yes...I've seen it in the failed state while watching regular content. If the subpixel is on the brink of failure, no amount of "exercise" will help it ultimately. I really haven't been able to detect a pattern as to when it falters...sometimes it's there, sometime it's not. But I did notice it vanish on a white screen when the tech came out and upped the voltage.

And you don't have to tell me how much this sucks...I am extremely pissed but I am stuck with it for now. The ball is presently in Pioneer's court.
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post #10178 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Yea, that slight image retention is standard and nothing to fear. As you progress further into break-in, the set becomes less susceptible to it.

Regarding my intermittent subpixel failure, yes...I've seen it in the failed state while watching regular content. If the subpixel is on the brink of failure, no amount of "exercise" will help it ultimately. I really haven't been able to detect a pattern as to when it falters...sometimes it's there, sometime it's not. But I did notice it vanish on a white screen when the tech came out and upped the voltage.

And you don't have to tell me how much this sucks...I am extremely pissed but I am stuck with it for now. The ball is presently in Pioneer's court.

Well, the good news seems to be that Pioneer would come out to check the issue while under warranty. Please keep me informed as to whether they will replace the set over this. Best of luck that they fix it. You bought a $4k panel(regardless of what you paid for it), you(all of us) should be treated as close to perfection as the technology is able to provide.

My brother had purchased a NEC 50xr5(I think) 4 years back before Pioneer bought their plasma division. It worked fine for the first few months, and then it developed an intermittently stuck red pixel. Eventually the pixel became fully stuck on red. It was so obnoxious, it looked like someone was shining a laser pointer on the screen continuously. Good news here is that NEC actually replaced the set with a brand new one after checking the issue out. Let us hope Pioneer has the same high standards in customer service.
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post #10179 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 06:40 PM
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I just purchased a PDP 5020FD and want to hang it on the wall. I also purchased a low profile mount from monoprice.com and a Panamax M5300PM and MIW-XT. The question I have is where do you place the electrical box behind the TV...center low/right or left side??? Thank you.
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post #10180 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 07:49 PM
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FYI,

I installed the firmware update on my PDP-5020FD last night, no issues, however it took a while for it to recognize the flash drive and start the update after plugging back in the power cable.
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post #10181 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

As an aside, I decided to order the firmware update from Pioneer to be sent on a preloaded flash drive. I emailed the order on 12 February, and was informed this morning that it shipped yesterday, 11 March...one month to supply the order!!! Besides leaving the flat panel business, I think they've laid off everyone in the order department also!

I ordred mine last Thursday online and received it in less than a week (Tuesday.) I do live in California though so they didn't have far to ship it.
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post #10182 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 09:09 PM
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I couldn't get the update to work for the life of me. I tried formating my flash drive to fat, fat32 and ntfs with no luck. The update was the only thing on the drive and it never worked, yet the drive works fine using the break-in images. Oh well, I ordered the update from Pioneer so I should be receiving that soon.

Does anyone know if it would work to put the update on an external hard drive formatted to fat32 and connected to the usb port? Maybe I'll give that a shot since it obviously doesn't like my flash drive.

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post #10183 of 15007 Old 03-12-2009, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jayw547 View Post

I also have an issue I would appreciate some help with. When I set the tv (5020) to dot by dot on my ps3, 1080p input, the menu and blu ray movies leave about a four pixel strip from the top left of the screen all the way around the edge to the bottom right. If I select full or auto these pixels are alive and well. Is there something wrong with my dot by dot or is the ps3 not really outputting true 1080p?

I am having the EXACT same issue. Can someone please elaborate. I figured dot by dot would be the way to watch a blu ray in 1080P, but so far that hasn't been the case. any info would be greatly appreciated.
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post #10184 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by johnb405 View Post

I am having the EXACT same issue. Can someone please elaborate. I figured dot by dot would be the way to watch a blu ray in 1080P, but so far that hasn't been the case. any info would be greatly appreciated.

For me its on the right side. Same size.
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post #10185 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

If PC is off, you get motion-adaptive (video) deinterlace which isn't able to reproduce the full resolution of film sources. On the other hand, you avoid the possibility that video is detected as film; you avoid instances where the source material switches from film to video, while the Pioneer remains temporarily locked in film mode.

The benefit of Standard over Advanced is that it always ignores (i.e. disables PC) 720p60 channels like ABC, FOX, ESPN, ESPN2, and ESPNews. With Standard enabled, 720p channels always get the maximum resolution possible on film-sourced content (since no deinterlace is necessary), and there's no possibility that video is detected as film.

So again, it sounds like more compromises. You're saying Standard mode is the best to use all the time?

Quote:


Of course, this assumes that you have a STB or DVR that is able to output 720p channels as 720p and 1080i channels as 1080i; DVRs from DirecTV, Scientific Atlanta, and TiVo can do this, while DVRs from Dish Network and Motorola cannot

Motorola DVR's can output 1080i, I would assume 720p as well. ? EDIT: I believe I see what you're saying; they can do it, but not both at the same time. I just found this: "The DVR can only output one HD format. For example, if you set it to 1080i, all HD will be output as 1080i. Any source that is 720p or 480p will be converted to 1080i. This is only done when on playback or viewing live video. Recordings are ALWAYS saved in their native format." That's ridiculous....isn't it? Isn't that a drawback? I also don't see the point of this happening "on playback [of recordings] and viewing live video", but not the way they are saved. What's the point of saving them in the native format, but not being able to play them back in the native format? They should have some kind of "auto" format detection setting.

God Bless,
-Clint
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post #10186 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

I couldn't get the update to work for the life of me. I tried formating my flash drive to fat, fat32 and ntfs with no luck. The update was the only thing on the drive and it never worked, yet the drive works fine using the break-in images. Oh well, I ordered the update from Pioneer so I should be receiving that soon.

Did you just put the update files on the USB drive, or the entire "update" folder? You're supposed to do the latter. (And FAT32).


Quote:
Does anyone know if it would work to put the update on an external hard drive formatted to fat32 and connected to the usb port? Maybe I'll give that a shot since it obviously doesn't like my flash drive

It's "supposed" to recognize any USB type drive, flash/thumb or HD. But just like some HD's not liking certain USB enclosures, it's the same way with the TV. Some USB drives it "just doesn't like". I don't know if the HD has to be blank and only the "update" folder on it, or if it will work with other data on the drive.

God Bless,
-Clint
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post #10187 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

Did you just put the update files on the USB drive, or the entire "update" folder? You're supposed to do the latter. (And FAT32).


It's "supposed" to recognize any USB type drive, flash/thumb or HD. But just like some HD's not liking certain USB enclosures, it's the same way with the TV. Some USB drives it "just doesn't like". I don't know if the HD has to be blank and only the "update" folder on it, or if it will work with other data on the drive.


I tried both but I am aware it is supposed to be the entire update folder. I believe it said that in the manual, or on the Pioneer's website. It also said it could accept all three formats, but I figured FAT32 would be the best, so that's what I tried the most.

No need to try it with the hard drive this time, but I may give that a shot next time. I just placed the order for the update drive from Pioneer and I got an email saying it shipped yesterday and should be here by Monday.

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post #10188 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnb405 View Post

I am having the EXACT same issue. Can someone please elaborate. I figured dot by dot would be the way to watch a blu ray in 1080P, but so far that hasn't been the case. any info would be greatly appreciated.

What's your orbiter setting?

If it's orbiter 2, then I think it's the orbiter shifting the image. Have you confirmed that never moves?
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post #10189 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 05:35 AM
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My 200 hrs of break-in will be done Monday...now if only MNF was on to really test it out.

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post #10190 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_DML View Post

see

2:3 pulldown

in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

Thanks for the link.

So, since "In the United States and other countries with television using 60Hz vertical scanning frequency, video is broadcast at 29.97 frame/s. For the film's motion to be accurately rendered on the video signal, a telecine must use a technique called the 2:3 pulldown (sometimes also called 3:2 pulldown) to convert from 24 to 29.97 frame/s.", like Jim said, that sounds like PC Modes would be irrelevant on all TV content. ? Since it's all about 30fps (and 60hz). Or am I misunderstanding that? Experts? "Bueller?.........Bueller?"

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post #10191 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 05:54 AM
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Any chance any of you are coming from or have seen the Pioneer 6070 720p? I was at Sam's yesterday and I noticed they still had this one for under $1500. I have not been able to find it for sale any where online or even much in terms of reviews. It looked pretty good in the store and that price for a 60" for someone sitting 10-15 feet away, I would think it could be a damn nice set.

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post #10192 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tcramer View Post

Any chance any of you are coming from or have seen the Pioneer 6070 720p?....

Yes, they are nice sets, and as you stated, would look good from a longer viewing distance. If it's in the box, that's one thing, but if it's been a display model, that's a few years of service already gone!
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post #10193 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

Yes, they are nice sets, and as you stated, would look good from a longer viewing distance. If it's in the box, that's one thing, but if it's been a display model, that's a few years of service already gone!

There were 3 tags left so I would assume they have 3 left in stock. You think $1500 is a good price? I haven't been able to find it anywhere else online. I thought it sounded pretty dang good. I'm sure it wouldn't compare to a new 58" Panny or 60" Pio, but I'm sure it would a helluva lot better than those 65" Sharp or Olevias they are selling for around $3000 these days.

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post #10194 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

You say the Kuro "should", does that mean that it actually does?

I say should because according to info from Pio, some reviewers and D-Nice Pure Cinema:Off should still engage PC for a 1080p/24fps signal. Some owners finding it's handling still different from PC:Advanced question what is actually happening. So I say should although for me it's not a big issue either way.

Quote:


If 1080, wouldn't it always be 1080i from a STB?

Well you could set the signal from your STB to some other resolution and Dish for instance can send 1080p with it's "HD Turbo" or some such. I have Dish for NBA but haven't bothered with it much beyond that but that's why I wouldn't say it's always 1080i.



Quote:


"2:3 pulldown at 60fps" is achieved on the Kuro in PC Mode Standard and Off?

I'm saying that if the material broadcast has had pulldown applied previously, which is already a technique used to get some motion improvement for film-to-TV conversion, then I'm fine with a Pure Cinema setting that accepts the resulting 30fps signal and reproduces it smoothly at 60fps without attempting to apply any reversal and other pull down such as might occur with PC:Advanced for instance.

Quote:


I believe what most people want to know, at least I do, is what PC mode can the TV be left on all the the time for TV viewing, like TV shows? Or is the problem that just using one PC Mode is bad, induces anomalies, etc., for some TV content? Thanks.

I understand. You can simplify it by staying with one PC mode but if you're then asking detailed questions about what happens the answers are not so simple. bfdtv provided some excellent insight. I wouldn't say the results are "bad" using one PC mode (none of which is 'perfect' for all signals) in the sense that I find most of these judder issues relatively minor to begin with and only occurring on limited occasions anyway. YMMV.

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post #10195 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 08:46 AM
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So I want to make sure that I am on the correct page here:

PC:Off - 3:3 pull down 72hz mode for 24p content, ??? for 30 of 60FPS content

PC:Standard - 2:3 pull down 72hz mode for 24p content, 60hz mode for 30 of 60FPS content

PC: Advanced - 3:3 pulldown 72hz mode for 24p content, 60hz mode for 30 or 60p content, for content broadcast in 30 or 60p mode that was originally 24p it will attempt to compensate and give you the original 24p image. May misjudge stuff.

PC: Smooth - Frame interpolation, gives the "soap opera" effect.

I tried using PC: Standard and it gave me a headache while playing gears of war 2. I switched it to off and it looked more natural to me without the headache.

Advanced sounds ideal assuming it works pretty well most of the time.
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post #10196 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nmcnair View Post

So I want to make sure that I am on the correct page here:

PC:Off - 3:3 pull down 72hz mode for 24p content, ??? for 30 of 60FPS content

PC:Standard - 2:3 pull down 72hz mode for 24p content, 60hz mode for 30 of 60FPS content

PC: Advanced - 3:3 pulldown 72hz mode for 24p content, 60hz mode for 30 or 60p content, for content broadcast in 30 or 60p mode that was originally 24p it will attempt to compensate and give you the original 24p image. May misjudge stuff.

PC: Smooth - Frame interpolation, gives the "soap opera" effect.

I tried using PC: Standard and it gave me a headache while playing gears of war 2. I switched it to off and it looked more natural to me without the headache.

Advanced sounds ideal assuming it works pretty well most of the time.

This post has a very clear outline of what the PureCinema modes do:

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/show...02&postcount=2
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post #10197 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by nmcnair View Post

So I want to make sure that I am on the correct page here:

PC:Off - 3:3 pull down 72hz mode for 24p content, ??? for 30 of 60FPS content

According to D-Nice and other reviewers, you always get 72Hz mode for native 24p signals when PC is OFF.

For other signals, such as 480i and 1080i, PC:OFF disables IVTC. With PC off, you just get motion-adaptive video deinterlace on 480i and 1080i signals.

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Originally Posted by nmcnair View Post

PC:Standard - 2:3 pull down 72hz mode for 24p content, 60hz mode for 30 of 60FPS content

I don't think you get 72Hz for anything with PC: Standard.

With Standard enabled, inverse telecine (IVTC) is performed when a 24p source is "detected" in 480i and 1080i signals. This 24p source is reconstructed with IVTC and displayed at 60p with 2:3 pull-down. Progressive signals such as 480p, 720p, and 1080p60 -- which do not need deinterlace -- are ignored.

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Originally Posted by nmcnair View Post

PC: Advanced - 3:3 pulldown 72hz mode for 24p content, 60hz mode for 30 or 60p content, for content broadcast in 30 or 60p mode that was originally 24p it will attempt to compensate and give you the original 24p image. May misjudge stuff.

Advance is supposed to ignore 1080p60 input signals, but apparently it will detect 720p24 in a 720p60 signal, which it would scale and output as 1080p72 with 3:3 pull-down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nmcnair View Post

I tried using PC: Standard and it gave me a headache while playing gears of war 2. I switched it to off and it looked more natural to me without the headache.

If you are outputting Gears of War 2 as 720p from a Xbox360, then PC: Standard should have no effect on it.
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post #10198 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 09:40 AM
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I couldn't get the update to work for the life of me. I tried formating my flash drive to fat, fat32 and ntfs with no luck. The update was the only thing on the drive and it never worked, yet the drive works fine using the break-in images. Oh well, I ordered the update from Pioneer so I should be receiving that soon.

I had the same issue...tried 2 different USB sticks (1GB Kingston and 128MB Linksys) neither worked...borrowed a 4GB USB stick from work and the update worked.
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post #10199 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 10:17 AM
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Does anyone in here have an opinion on how to set their DVR, in my case a TIVO HD to work best with the 5020? I know on my Panny it worked best with 1080i. Is that the way to go here or would I be better of setting it to output 720p?

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post #10200 of 15007 Old 03-13-2009, 10:20 AM
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Does anyone in here have an opinion on how to set their DVR, in my case a TIVO HD to work best with the 5020? I know on my Panny it worked best with 1080i. Is that the way to go here or would I be better of setting it to output 720p?

I would leave it at 1080i. If you output at 720p that means your TV would have to de-interlace, adding additional processing.
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