The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 139 - AVS Forum
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post #4141 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

If this is the case would a power conditioner be the way to fight it?
I have heard of a few people trying power conditioners but had no luck. maybe they were not the better power conditioners.

Forget about "power conditioners"! They don't do jack but deplete your pocketbook. Stick to reliable power surge protectors--Panamax makes good ones; other companies do too...

-THTS
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post #4142 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ddgtr View Post

How about ground loops, could they cause buzzing???

Just take care that all of your video/audio components are plugged to the SAME AC power source (preferably to the same power strip fed from a dedicate AC line if that's possible) to avoid creating ground loops.

With audio units, ground loops can become a real nightmare; but they can affect video components too, so...

-THTS
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post #4143 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 12:59 AM
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Really, IMO Its just like many have said,
the buzz comes from the panel. Some panels buzz more than others.
Individual hearing, room acoustics, and seating position can make the buzz vary from person to person.
I don't think there is such thing as a panel that has NO Buzz.
It will at the very least have a light buzz. Individual hearing, room acoustics, and seating position may be the reason some have reported no buzz at all.

One thing is for sure, Once you hear the buzz and it annoys you, you are much more likely to notice it and listen for it in the future and will be bothersome to you. this may be why most that have had a buzzer and got a replacement, report the buzz on the next set at least to some degree (maybe a less or more).

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #4144 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 01:30 AM
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I've heard a slight buzz from two inches on two occasions. The occasions happened to be two of the three times I was dumb enough to put my ear that close to our Kuro screen.

From reading posts about buzzing, it seems possible that what people refer to may be coming from more than one source. The panel and the power supply would be two possibilities.

I'm not one of the "line conditioner" faithful, and I don't recall anyone solving a buzz by using one. It's possible I missed a report by someone.

As part of working at SRI International (originally Stanford Research Institute), I attended a conference we hosted on "sensitive loads" that was attended by most of the large power companies across the country. While I didn't have the background to understand the engineering that was being discussed, I did understand that the best surge protection was to disconnect from the outlet before the power comes back on, and when there is lightning in the area.

I've always used surge protectors with our computers, and our home entertainment equipment. I think it's a good idea even if you install a whole house surge protector.

Calibration Resources:

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post #4145 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by arunkandra View Post

Chad,

Had a long conversation with Robert yesterday ....upon his request I stopped playing the break-in and watched discovery and some DVD`s on full screen mode....And without changing the powersave as you suggested....both my wife and I felt that the buzz was almost negligible.....I am feeling muccchh better...I was up until 2AM last night testing out various discs etc....So a big relief I can say after all that nervous moments I had prior....I think the break in process tends to exaggerate the buzz as you mentioned in the PM

And I am already moving on to my next step....AV receiver shopping LOL

I just wonder how many other people have complained about the buzz based on what they heard on the break-in disk as opposed to real content?
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post #4146 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

one thing is for sure, once you hear the buzz and it annoys you, you are much more likely to notice it and listen for it in the future and will be bothersome to you. This may be why most that have had a buzzer and got a replacement, report the buzz on the next set at least to some degree (maybe a less or more).

+1
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post #4147 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank J Manrique View Post

Ummm...power factor issues? You mean wild swings (up/down) in voltage levels? ...

-THTS

Power factor is when your voltage and current are out of phase. Non-linear power loads on the circuit can cause this. The primary source of the problem is not the power company, but things in your home. Switching power supplies and fluorescent lights are examples of loads that can cause this. Furman for example makes some products that can help with this.

If you have an oscilloscope you can look at the current and voltage wave forms to see how severe it is. I have seen some really bad wave forms when switching power supplies or fluorescent lights are in use.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #4148 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 06:32 AM
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They could be correct about it being a problem in that home. I have noticed the power supply on my laptop buzzes in some homes and not in others. I wonder if it could be caused by a bad power factor within a home. It is not a common occurance, but it does happen about once every other month or so.

-1. I don't think this is a problem with the home - given my experience and the numerous others. Some of us have power conditioners, etc. which may no difference.
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post #4149 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank J Manrique View Post

Ummm...power factor issues? You mean wild swings (up/down) in voltage levels? If that's the case then call your Electric Power Utility company and ask them to check voltage at the service meter and make corrections (usually calling for a voltage boost beyond the feed point at the substation's voltage regulating equipment and from which the power lines feeding our homes are sourced from; rarely voltage bucking, but it does happen occasionally ).

I used to work for a public Electric Power Utility (retired last August after 38 years of slave work there ) in the Power Supply Department...Substation Division (was a Substation Operator), and other than experiencing low voltage problems (below what is dictated by law: residential single phase 110-120 volts service) on a few occasions since 1972 the other problems occurred when the entire Western power grid's frequency deteriorated to below 60 Hz. after losing couple of 500 KV transmission lines from Northwest states a few years ago; there were many "brownouts" and total "blackouts" that lasted from a few minutes to several hours.

Actually, we all should have some means to tightly regulate our homes' voltage to assure steady, rock-solid voltage levels--it can be done but the cost is very high-- so the next best solution is to install one them new power surge protectors that are placed next to the AC breaker box; with these installed the ENTIRE home's electrical service is protected....

-THTS

Great suggestion and agree! We did this - and cost less than $200 per box. The house basically has double protection and also insulates things like refrigerators and other direct wired appliances where there is no surge protector.
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post #4150 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by trics View Post

-1. I don't think this is a problem with the home - given my experience and the numerous others. Some of us have power conditioners, etc. which may no difference.


I did not say it was a certainty, but most power conditioners will have little effect on power factor problems. The only way to rule it out would be to look at a scope of the current and voltage and see what is really happening with the power. The lower the frequency of the buzz the more likely it could be effected by this. High frequency buzzing is unlikely to be related to a power factor issue around 60Hz.

I used to install power factor correction equipment on some jobs and it is not a low cost item. Many times we moved bad loads off the critical circuit to solve the problem.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #4151 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 07:20 AM
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update on my blotching problem.

After Pio techs compared it to their reference set in my home. My case was declared borderline. They have decided to give me a new set. Thats good service IMO.

Just as I'm reaching the 150Hr mark on break in...
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post #4152 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 07:47 AM
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In a very rare occurrence I can see the power problem in a home causing some problems. This however has absolutely nothing to do with the specific Pioneer panel buzzing that people are experiencing and is shown in the YouTube video. I find sad but not surprising that Pioneer would use the exact same excuses (all Plasmas buzz - which is a lie, and the power in the home - another item irrelevant to the problem in question) that Dell used years ago to explain their plasma buzzing. This is not a power supply problem. Dell even went to the trouble of sending out power conditioners to people with no effect whatsoever.

I hate to keep bringing this up but there are too many guesses and not enough facts. Please correct me if I am wrong but to date we have NO user who has experienced problem buzzing ever come in contact with a silent set, and we have NO user ever having a tech turn a buzzing set into a set that could not be heard at all with power save off at viewing distance.

I am not saying there are no very quiet sets, I am saying that no person who has come in contact with a problem buzzer has ever come in contact with the so called silent sets that 40% of the poll people say they have. That should be considered an extraordinarily large statistically anomaly. I have heard, second hand, that a pioneer engineer has stated that the panel buzzing is significantly more noticeable in the 60" than the 50", so maybe many of the poll respondents with quiet sets have 50".

Chad said those of us who have experience problem buzzing are going out of our way to look for what may not be there in the replacement. That is a logical conclusion, and so is the logical conclusion that many owners did not have good return options, didn't want to bother, or don't have very good hearing so they have talked themselves into keeping their set and accepting Pioneers manufacturing flaw. So the normal response from some of you will be for me to just shut up and go with a different manufacturer and let you enjoy your 9G. That is fine, but now you know why corporations spend far more on advertising than on customer service or recalls, because they know most consumers will just put up with it. Because you were lucky enough to get a quiet set, does it seems fair to debase those that weren't so lucky?
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post #4153 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 08:26 AM
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I have a quiet set and it is a 60" so I don't think quiet sets are limited to 50".

What has concerned me in all the buzz discussions is that there is not enough evidence to isolate what the causative factors may be. There are many factors that can contribute to our perception of sounds. Some, like power anomalies have been mentioned but others have not. Some others that can contribute are things like cabinet resonances, resonances in walls, resonances in furniture, resonances, presence of reflective surfaces, and others. Are there more buzzers that are wall mounted or stand mounted for instance? Is buzzing the result of simple design or manufacturing defects or is it more complicated than that? I don't think anyone really knows.

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post #4154 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 09:17 AM
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How well can you quiet set owners hear 12 KHz and 16kHz? This may have nothing to do with hearing but I don't think it can be discounted either.
From
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
There is a clicking sound that is not the actual tone at 16kHz. I have to move up the scale to hear it but I don't have to go to the top and I can hear the 12kHz just fine.

"Children usually hear 16 kHz moderately well. The high frequency hearing of adults depends on age and exposure to loud sounds. It is not uncommon for adults to have very low sensitivity for the highest frequencies. (Your children may be complaining about that 16 kHz tone that you cannot hear.)"

JazzGuyy, I am not sure what else you need to hear, the sound is obvious to me in all situations. Two different sets in my house, two on display at different stores, and the YouTube video. All are the same, it is a high pitched "buzz" from the screen. As everyone has described, it changes depending on what is on the screen and changes depending on where you are in relation to the screen.
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post #4155 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by yexel View Post

So the normal response from some of you will be for me to just shut up and go with a different manufacturer and let you enjoy your 9G. That is fine, but now you know why corporations spend far more on advertising than on customer service or recalls, because they know most consumers will just put up with it. Because you were lucky enough to get a quiet set, does it seems fair to debase those that weren't so lucky?

yexel,

Absolutely not!!

My 60" doesn't buzz and I consider myself lucky for that, but like I've said, I am totally with those who got buzzers. I don't dismiss it and Pioneer should take care of people like yourself without any questions asked. You paid the 6k upfront, with the understanding that you get a working product. A "buzzing" product does not equate a working product. I understand what you are going through as I have had my share of bad electronics. Count me in as one of those who always buys a product as it hits the market and ends up being a beta tester for the company...

Chad didn't mean to sound like he dismisses you... None of us do

Are you able to return it for an exchange, and if so you should do it. I would, and I would go through as many sets necessary to get one I'm happy with.

I hope it works out for you...

...

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post #4156 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 09:59 AM
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Thanks ddgtr.

By the way here is another example (or hear is another example):
http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquit...gtone-MP3.html
I had to turn my volume up but I can clearly hear the annoying high pitched tone. If you can't hear it maybe that is why you can enjoy your 9G.
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post #4157 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yexel View Post

How well can you quiet set owners hear 12 KHz and 16kHz? This may have nothing to do with hearing but I don't think it can be discounted either.
From
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
There is a clicking sound that is not the actual tone at 16kHz. I have to move up the scale to hear it but I don't have to go to the top and I can hear the 12kHz just fine.

"Children usually hear 16 kHz moderately well. The high frequency hearing of adults depends on age and exposure to loud sounds. It is not uncommon for adults to have very low sensitivity for the highest frequencies. (Your children may be complaining about that 16 kHz tone that you cannot hear.)"

JazzGuyy, I am not sure what else you need to hear, the sound is obvious to me in all situations. Two different sets in my house, two on display at different stores, and the YouTube video. All are the same, it is a high pitched "buzz" from the screen. As everyone has described, it changes depending on what is on the screen and changes depending on where you are in relation to the screen.

I have a silent set, and I can hear both 12 and 16KHz just fine. I have a 111, and I'm using a Panamax 5300.
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post #4158 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 10:20 AM
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My KURO Pro 111FD has been running through the break-in images off of a USB drive for more than 11 hours. I accepted delivery of the flat panel Friday morning, picked up a piece of Whalen furniture that compliments the television and the smaller viewing space available for it in my house, and put everything together yesterday afternoon. The Pro 111FD is replacing a Sharp LC-32D7U, which is a great older generation LCD by its own right. When I bought the LCD, I was living in a small condo and had even less space available than I do now! The Pioneer, of course, is a mammoth in comparison. This is the largest display that my 19th century cape will allow. I actually found myself commenting how, "this television looked smaller in the store."

Setting up the Pro 111FD was not difficult since I had someone available to help me and I was placing the panel on a table. I checked the stand while the panel was still in the box and I noticed that the bolts were secured well at the factory, nothing appeared to have come loose when my local store shipped the plasma to me. Once my initial inspection of the stand was complete, my helper and I lifted the whole television, cover and all, out of the box, cleared the white foam packing material from under the stand and placed it all on the table. Once the plasma was more or less in the center of the table, I took the packing material off the top of the display and then made my final adjustments to get the television dead center. And yes, a ruler was brought to bare for this final step. Seating is currently spaced five to six feet back from the plasma.

Plasma panel resonance (the buzz) is there, but I do not find it annoying. Right now, it is the most noticeable when viewing slide two of the break-in images. I do not perceive it on any of the other slides. I'm not sure if this is because there is too much background noise, or if my 33-year-old ears are just not picking up on things that my 22 year-old ears were able to pick up on 11 years ago. I expect that I will tune out what I do hear over the next 150 hours. Even now, the resonance is subtle, almost like the electronic hum from speakers or powered subwoofers. It certainly isn't louder than the crickets that chirp outside my windows at night. I'm going to categorize this as something that doesn't affect me. I mean, most electronics make noise, and I have found ways to live with these noises (I would say that I have sensitive ears). For the duration of my break-in period, I am not using a power saving mode, per the instructions. I know that sometimes affects panel buzz.

Out of the box, the plasma also doesn't have any dead or stuck pixels from what I can see. I decided to attach the two speakers for now, but I'm not exactly sure whether I will keep them. Aesthetically, the panel looks really nice without the speakers, and I have a receiver and a couple bookshelf speakers that I was using with the LCD, so I have a decision to make there. Eventually, once I complete my 150-hour break-in period, I also want to connect my HTPC. For now, however, it's getting a week off.

All in all, my first impressions are positive almost 12 hours in. I would say that I lucked out with my purchase. Pioneer was at my local store last weekend and I was able to chat with the representative (he had a full head of hair), the store was also having a sale (and that made the 50" Panasonic PZ850U and the Pioneer Pro 111FD a bit more competitive), and tax was paid by the store as an added bonus.

Once I start in on real content, I'll have more to share. Knowing myself, I'll probably sneak in a couple hours of standard definition full-screen something-or-other during the week just to get a feel for the new television set. I briefy watched one of my local HD stations before starting the break-in routine. During this demo, I didn't hear any buzz or notice any defects, so in a real-world setting, I'm going to say that this plasma screen works according to its specifications.
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post #4159 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by El Bandito View Post

I have a silent set, and I can hear both 12 and 16KHz just fine. I have a 111, and I'm using a Panamax 5300.

Thanks. I couldn't hear any buzz from the 111 in a store where I could clearly hear it from their 151. Hopefully a few people with silent 151 sets can tell me if they hear the Mosquito tone and stop my grasping at straws hearing theory.
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post #4160 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by yexel View Post


Chad said those of us who have experience problem buzzing are going out of our way to look for what may not be there in the replacement.

Thats not what I said.
I said once you have experienced the Buzz you are more likely to notice it in the future. This is simply because you know where to sit, what it sounds like, and what content (all white screen mostly) will exibit the buzz at its heaviest.

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #4161 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Thats not what I said.
I said once you have experienced the Buzz you are more likely to notice it in the future. This is simply because you know where to sit, what it sounds like, and what content (all white screen mostly) will exibit the buzz at its heaviest.

My mistake then, I was inferring what you may not have been implying. I am just mad at Pioneer for making us go through this. You have a great plasma and you shouldn't have to use power save 2 to reduce the buzzing, but I don't blame you, if I end up with one that I can't hear at 10 feet on power save 2 I might keep it.
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post #4162 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by yexel View Post

My mistake then, I was inferring what you may not have been implying. I am just mad at Pioneer for making us go through this. You have a great plasma and you shouldn't have to use power save 2 to reduce the buzzing, but I don't blame you, if I end up with one that I can't hear at 10 feet on power save 2 I might keep it.

Your frustration is well-understood by those of us who have been in the same position. This conversation should not even be taking place with a $6000 television.

FWIW, I do use PowerSave 2 and I don't mind it at all. (In fact, we still sometimes find the set overly bright at night without some ambient lighting.) Others may dismiss it as a compromise or a bastardization of the set's "reference settings" that doesn't warrant inclusion in discussions of settings and PQ, but so be it. It's your $6000 so if you can get one that works for you in your house, that's all that matters. Best of luck to you.
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post #4163 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ddgtr View Post

yexel,

Absolutely not!!

My 60" doesn't buzz and I consider myself lucky for that, but like I've said, I am totally with those who got buzzers. I don't dismiss it and Pioneer should take care of people like yourself without any questions asked. You paid the 6k upfront, with the understanding that you get a working product. A "buzzing" product does not equate a working product. I understand what you are going through as I have had my share of bad electronics. Count me in as one of those who always buys a product as it hits the market and ends up being a beta tester for the company...

Chad didn't mean to sound like he dismisses you... None of us do

Are you able to return it for an exchange, and if so you should do it. I would, and I would go through as many sets necessary to get one I'm happy with.

I hope it works out for you...

I hope it works out as well.
No one sweated out getting a buzzer more than me and no one appreciates more the fact that mine is silent.(Pro-151) I feel for anyone who has buzzing or dead pixels from what is alleged to be the best equipment in the business.
These problems have conditioned me to be satisfied with a panel that is of the "plus green" variety which although eminently correctable, needs calibration (read more $$$) just to get it to the condition it should have been delivered in. There's no excuse for any of it.
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post #4164 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 02:06 PM
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website that sells better quality cloth for cleaning.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post14403244

Thanks. Just ordered a #360 and #370 cloth.
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post #4165 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by yexel View Post

How well can you quiet set owners hear 12 KHz and 16kHz? This may have nothing to do with hearing but I don't think it can be discounted either.
From
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html
There is a clicking sound that is not the actual tone at 16kHz. I have to move up the scale to hear it but I don't have to go to the top and I can hear the 12kHz just fine.

"Children usually hear 16 kHz moderately well. The high frequency hearing of adults depends on age and exposure to loud sounds. It is not uncommon for adults to have very low sensitivity for the highest frequencies. (Your children may be complaining about that 16 kHz tone that you cannot hear.)"

JazzGuyy, I am not sure what else you need to hear, the sound is obvious to me in all situations. Two different sets in my house, two on display at different stores, and the YouTube video. All are the same, it is a high pitched "buzz" from the screen. As everyone has described, it changes depending on what is on the screen and changes depending on where you are in relation to the screen.

I think the buzz is nowhere near 12 khz or 16 khz. That's super-high pitch and has to be at a much higher db level before anyone with normal hearing can perceive it. I would estimate the buzz to be mostly around 2 khz, but that's a guess.
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post #4166 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yexel View Post


JazzGuyy, I am not sure what else you need to hear, the sound is obvious to me in all situations. Two different sets in my house, two on display at different stores, and the YouTube video. All are the same, it is a high pitched "buzz" from the screen. As everyone has described, it changes depending on what is on the screen and changes depending on where you are in relation to the screen.

I have never questioned that some sets buzz. They clearly do. What I am trying to understand is why they buzz and why this phenomenon that all sets seem to buzz for some people takes place. Since the reports of buzzing are all over the place from people who hear nothing unless they are right against the set (like me) to people who can hear the buzz from as much as 25 feet away, there is no clear pattern emerging that would help to identify the causes and possible cures for the problem. The only thing that is clear is that, for those sets that do buzz loudly, the buzz seems to vary with the power the set is using, indicating that is electrical or electro-mechanical in origin.

I am also somewhat puzzled by the term "buzz" if this is a very high-pitched sound. High pitched sounds are not generally referred to as buzzes. I would expect a buzz to be at a much lower frequency, say a few hundred hertz at most. A high-pitched sound is a whine, not a buzz. Are people hearing whines or buzzes?

I consider myself very lucky and am very thankful that my 151 is buzzless.

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post #4167 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 02:32 PM
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You might call it whiny buzz
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post #4168 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 02:35 PM
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There's a buzzing thread for all this talk guys!
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post #4169 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

I am also somewhat puzzled by the term "buzz" if this is a very high-pitched sound. High pitched sounds are not generally referred to as buzzes. I would expect a buzz to be at a much lower frequency, say a few hundred hertz at most. A high-pitched sound is a whine, not a buzz. Are people hearing whines or buzzes?

The bad buzzer I had was most analogous to one of those noisy flourescent bulbs you hear from time to time. Sounds like a mosquito trapped in a glass- a buzz.
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post #4170 of 30646 Old 08-24-2008, 02:39 PM
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There's a buzzing thread for all this talk guys!

It's a legitimate conversation about the Kuros.
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