The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 172 - AVS Forum
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post #5131 of 30480 Old 09-11-2008, 11:40 AM
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For me, after three buzzing 151 (which I really wish I'd recorded all the serial numbers to see if there was a correlation), I'm still in limbo, also. Until my 141 comes in I won't know if I've finally eluded the buzz.

I can say definitively that it still drives me crazy on my 151 (which will not be returned until it's swapped for the 141 I'm waiting for). I cringe everytime I turn it on and the room is still silent before the audio system catches up and all I can hear is the refrigerator/chainsaw/fluorescent light buzz of the set. I'm really praying the 141 is buzz free or I might just lose my mind entirely.

I've made it clear before, however, that I wouldn't even consider dealing/putting up with the buzz issue if everything else about the set wasn't so spectacular.
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post #5132 of 30480 Old 09-11-2008, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ROMAN O View Post

ANd lets take note that the thread has not been that active lately, hope thats a good sign.

My adventures are ongoing, and I had intended to post to a follow-up to that thread once said adventures had reached a conclusion (one way or another), which looks like will be within the next week or two.

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post #5133 of 30480 Old 09-11-2008, 12:24 PM
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This is probably already posted but the Sound and Vision Magazine review of the Pro 111 is up.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...asma-hdtv.html
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post #5134 of 30480 Old 09-11-2008, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

No, no, don't get my wrong. It's excellent compared to other TVs. I just meant, by comparison, I find my players do a better job. But they should, considering it's their job, more than the TV's.

What do you mean about your stand missing a doorknob? In any event, you're clearly going to be ready...the stand, the glasses! Big day next Tuesday!

The new cabinet I bought has two doors on the front. One's missing a doorknob. A replacement's been ordered by my CS rep. I must be careful not to close it by mistake, because the only way to open it would be through the back using a broom stick. Not an option once the stand is fully loaded with equipment.

Another challenge is whether I can have an HD cable box in before the TV gets here. According to the Time Warner rep I spoke to, sometimes service centers are out of stock, so I'm taking a chance if I go get it myself. The cable guy could bring one and set it up, but that's $30.30 and after the TV gets here. Still, that's way more convenient than going to get it myself, which I don't necessarily have time to do.

And here's where the one drawback to this set comes in. I'll need three component inputs (two, if I HDMI the cable box instead); the 111 has only one. This is why I'm back to thinking outboard processor. Or, at least, a component hub.
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post #5135 of 30480 Old 09-11-2008, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank J Manrique View Post

Are your glasses real GLASS or plastic lenses? If they're plastic I caution you that ALL of them produce diffraction of the light spectrum to some degree; in other words, at certain angles you'll notice mis-registration of colors--red, green, and blue--which is something akin to what occurred with some theatrical IB technicolor film prints as one or two dye transfer colors separated due to mis-registration of the elements during production runs. Real glass doesn't do that.

How do I know this? Well, I've been wearing glasses since my early teens (and back then I even worked at an optical shop owned by one of my uncles) and as the years go by my prescription becomes a bit more radical. Thus my prescription calls for thicker lenses if they're made of glass. Plastics afford much lighter and thinner lenses, but the penalty is light diffraction.
Damn, and I cannot even get corrective eye laser surgery done 'cuz am not a "good candidate." Argh!...

-THTS

My prescription hasn't changed much the last few times out. But yes, the lenses are plastic. Of course, the 111's picture will be so sharp I can watch without them.
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post #5136 of 30480 Old 09-11-2008, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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If anyone has links to 9G Elite reviews. PM me with them and I will post them on the first page.
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post #5137 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 12:14 AM
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OK. I have to ask this question, as basic as it may seem. I don't know exactly what judder is. I'll bet I've seen it, I know I probably have it, but which PQ snafu is it. Can anyone define or describe it. Go ahead and have a hayday with my ignorance, but I gotta ask.

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post #5138 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybob0405 View Post

OK. I have to ask this question, as basic as it may seem. I don't know exactly what judder is. I'll bet I've seen it, I know I probably have it, but which PQ snafu is it. Can anyone define or describe it. Go ahead and have a hayday with my ignorance, but I gotta ask.

Nobody's going to make fun of you here. Most have probably never even heard the term, and the reast of us don't know what it is. But here's the CNET glossary description, such as it is:
Quote:


judder
A visual artifact that often occurs when film is transferred to video. The result is what appears to be jerky or stuttering camera movement, where it should be a smooth pan.

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post #5139 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 08:17 AM
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Does anyone with a 151 know if the Control Out terminal supports SR+ as it did in the Pro 150?
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post #5140 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Does anyone with a 151 know if the Control Out terminal supports SR+ as it did in the Pro 150?

I'm fairly positive that the 151 only supports SR now. If I recall correctly, many people were annoyed that they decided to downgrade the feature.

I have been using HDMI control with a 151 and 94txh and it works well. I have all movie/gaming components (PS3, HD-DVD, 360) going to the receiver via HDMI, then run one HDMI cord to the TV. I also run my cable directly to the TV via HDMI and then run an optical from the TV to receiver. Interestingly, HDMI control still works with my cable TV even though it is not being run through the receiver - I get OSD volume/source for every component.

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post #5141 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybob0405 View Post

OK. I have to ask this question, as basic as it may seem. I don't know exactly what judder is. I'll bet I've seen it, I know I probably have it, but which PQ snafu is it. Can anyone define or describe it. Go ahead and have a hayday with my ignorance, but I gotta ask.


I am no expert on this, but one of the best examples of judder that I was told about is the end credits of a film. If you look closely at the names while they scroll up, you can see them actually "juddering" up and down - kind of looks like they are softly vibrating. I think it is harder to see judder in actual film content.

From my understanding, this is what the PureCinema/ 3:3 pulldown mode addresses. But I really do feel like it's hard to see (or be bothered by) judder in almost any picture mode (unless you're really looking for it or are particularly sensitive to it). I've never noticed it or been distracted by it during normal viewing.

I think while it often occurs from transferring film to video, it can also occur when video is poorly processed (ala LCD).

Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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post #5142 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FocusedOne View Post

I am no expert on this, but one of the best examples of judder that I was told about is the end credits of a film. If you look closely at the names while they scroll up, you can see them actually "juddering" up and down - kind of looks like they are softly vibrating. I think it is harder to see judder in actual film content.

From my understanding, this is what the PureCinema/ 3:3 pulldown mode addresses. But I really do feel like it's hard to see (or be bothered by) judder in almost any picture mode (unless you're really looking for it or are particularly sensitive to it). I've never noticed it or been distracted by it during normal viewing.

I think while it often occurs from transferring film to video, it can also occur when video is poorly processed (ala LCD).

Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Then when I see narrow lines, like tile on a rooftop, in a bright screen, and the lines seem to be wavey, that would be judder?

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post #5143 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 10:00 AM
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That sounds more like de-interlacing errors if what you are seeing is slight jaggedness in the lines.

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post #5144 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by billybob0405 View Post

Then when I see narrow lines, like tile on a rooftop, in a bright screen, and the lines seem to be wavey, that would be judder?

I see that on my 150 usually on SD channels like CNN... guy wearing a herringbone suit...I thought that was something that could be addressed with some of the noise filters?
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post #5145 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by izub View Post

I see that on my 150 usually on SD channels like CNN... guy wearing a herringbone suit...I thought that was something that could be addressed with some of the noise filters?

Your problem sound like moire, which is when the source doesn't have enough information and you get interference patterns like in moire silk. Moire is commonly seen with plaids, tweeds, herringbones, etc. where there are very detailed patterns that can't quite be resolved.

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post #5146 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 10:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jtack View Post

My adventures are ongoing, and I had intended to post to a follow-up to that thread once said adventures had reached a conclusion (one way or another), which looks like will be within the next week or two.

One thing is for certain: going through a competent and motivated merchant makes all the difference in the world.

That is true, please keep us posted as I know it can take some time.
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post #5147 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FocusedOne View Post

I'm fairly positive that the 151 only supports SR now. If I recall correctly, many people were annoyed that they decided to downgrade the feature.

I have been using HDMI control with a 151 and 94txh and it works well. I have all movie/gaming components (PS3, HD-DVD, 360) going to the receiver via HDMI, then run one HDMI cord to the TV. I also run my cable directly to the TV via HDMI and then run an optical from the TV to receiver. Interestingly, HDMI control still works with my cable TV even though it is not being run through the receiver - I get OSD volume/source for every component.

Focused, do you know what the difference is between SR+ and SR? Can you still get volume overlay with SR? I've tried HDMI control with my new SC-05 receiver and the Pro 150 and it's pretty fluky. When the receiver turns on it defaults to TV/Sat and that's not an HDMI input (I actually had the same issue with a VSX-94). There is apparently no way around that short of going component which I won't do. The other fluky thing is that with HDMI control set to 'on', sometimes the receiver turns on and then off as the 150 turns on.

That's why I was hoping for an SR overlay of volume on the 151.
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post #5148 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

Your problem sound like moire, which is when the source doesn't have enough information and you get interference patterns like in moire silk. Moire is commonly seen with plaids, tweeds, herringbones, etc. where there are very detailed patterns that can't quite be resolved.

It's really difficult to discuss problems when we all don't speak the same language. Just in this short discussion we have de-interlacing, judder and moire. I wished there was somewhere to go to see examples of these issues. I know what problems I hope to improve when I upgrade, I just would like to understand the lingo better.

Bill

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post #5149 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by billybob0405 View Post

It's really difficult to discuss problems when we all don't speak the same language. Just in this short discussion we have de-interlacing, judder and moire. I wished there was somewhere to go to see examples of these issues. I know what problems I hope to improve when I upgrade, I just would like to understand the lingo better.

Bill

Wikipedia actually has pretty decent articles on a lot of this stuff. They often include screen shots to demonstrate.
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post #5150 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Wikipedia actually has pretty decent articles on a lot of this stuff. They often include screen shots to demonstrate.

Thanks progprog, I'll check it out. I know I have went there for some of this lingo and didn't come out much more knowledgable. I'll give it another try.

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post #5151 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by billybob0405 View Post

Thanks progprog, I'll check it out. I know I have went there for some of this lingo and didn't come out much more knowledgable. I'll give it another try.

Well, yeah, they often give you more than you want to know! Look at the telecine article, which describes the cause of judder in one section. Way more than I want to try to understand!
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post #5152 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Well, yeah, they often give you more than you want to know! Look at the telecine article, which describes the cause of judder in one section. Way more than I want to try to understand!

That's one of the articles I went to.

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post #5153 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Focused, do you know what the difference is between SR+ and SR? Can you still get volume overlay with SR? I've tried HDMI control with my new SC-05 receiver and the Pro 150 and it's pretty fluky. When the receiver turns on it defaults to TV/Sat and that's not an HDMI input (I actually had the same issue with a VSX-94). There is apparently no way around that short of going component which I won't do. The other fluky thing is that with HDMI control set to 'on', sometimes the receiver turns on and then off as the 150 turns on.

That's why I was hoping for an SR overlay of volume on the 151.

I'm not sure what the exact differences are between SR+ and SR - I know there is a list of SR+ features/capabilities in the SC-05 manual, but it might be a little ambiguous.

I also don't know if you can get volume overlay with SR - I haven't tried it, yet. I'm assuming you can - volume OSD is a base feature.

With my setup, I didn't even realize that the 94txh defaults to TV/SAT every time it's turned on. This works for me because I have cable running directly to the TV via HDMI and then an optical from TV to AVR. With HDMI control turned on (on both the TV and AVR) I get OSD of volume, even with cable (even though my cable box is not running directly to the AVR via HDMI). And I'm not losing any sound quality because the best audio that comcast or direct TV can output is dolby digital plus, which can still be transferred over optical without loss.

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post #5154 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 11:51 AM
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Yesterday, I noticed something I hadn't before, so of course it bugs me now. I was sitting in a chair at the side of my room and noticed that the plastic cover of my 151's stand has warped a little. I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that at first. You see it more when you look at an angle as opposed to straight on. Here are a couple shots I just took to show it. The photo emphasizes the curvature on the left side, but it's actually on both ends. Anybody else see this on theirs?

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post #5155 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 11:52 AM
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Sorry the pics are so big...I didn't take the time to edit them....
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post #5156 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Focused, do you know what the difference is between SR+ and SR? Can you still get volume overlay with SR? I've tried HDMI control with my new SC-05 receiver and the Pro 150 and it's pretty fluky. When the receiver turns on it defaults to TV/Sat and that's not an HDMI input (I actually had the same issue with a VSX-94). There is apparently no way around that short of going component which I won't do. The other fluky thing is that with HDMI control set to 'on', sometimes the receiver turns on and then off as the 150 turns on.

That's why I was hoping for an SR overlay of volume on the 151.

I ended-up turning HDMI Control OFF because of all these "glitches". Since I am able to see the Receiver display by slightly lifting my head - I found that, to be less annoying than having to manually switch to "HDMI 1" or re-powering-on devices. These extra steps may have been manageable to me (I know what devices need to be on and the input settings) but it would have been almost impossible for my wife- even with our Harmony One.

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post #5157 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Yesterday, I noticed something I hadn't before, so of course it bugs me now. I was sitting in a chair at the side of my room and noticed that the plastic cover of my 151's stand has warped a little. I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that at first. You see it more when you look at an angle as opposed to straight on. Here are a couple shots I just took to show it. The photo emphasizes the curvature on the left side, but it's actually on both ends. Anybody else see this on theirs?

That is unusual. I just went down and looked at mine. She's flat as a pancake. Wonder what caused yours to warp like that? What sucks is now that you've noticed it, your eyes will be drawn to it every time.

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post #5158 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

That is unusual. I just went down and looked at mine. She's flat as a pancake. Wonder what caused yours to warp like that? What sucks is now that you've noticed it, your eyes will be drawn to it every time.

Exactly. I'm kind of obsessive that way, but fortunately, it's not as apparent when you look at it straight on. Plus most of our watching is in the evening when it's dark, so you don't see the stand... Not a huge deal, but I was just kind of surprised to see it.
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post #5159 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Exactly. I'm kind of obsessive that way, but fortunately, it's not as apparent when you look at it straight on. Plus most of our watching is in the evening when it's dark, so you don't see the stand... Not a hug deal, but I was just kind of surprised to see it.

That is very strange. Did you put it together or did you have it installed?
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post #5160 of 30480 Old 09-12-2008, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexInvision View Post

That is very strange. Did you put it together or did you have it installed?

I put it together. But as I'm sure you know, there's nothing tricky to it. It's basically just a (seemingly) rigid plastic cover that goes over the feet and attaches from below.
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