The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 199 - AVS Forum
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post #5941 of 30628 Old 09-24-2008, 10:12 PM
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Hi,

Im not sure if this is the spot to post my question. Ive tried searching site for a dedicated elite 110fd but no sucess.

Well, here is the question.

BB has a open box 50' elite 110fd for 2800. Still has the full warranty, not refurbished. However, it is missing a remote, manuel and the unit has been sitting there for half a year (could be longer) turned on everyday. Ive literally stood there inspecting the set for nearly half an hour and the set looks flawless. Do you guy think its a good deal? I was originally looking for a sammy 58plasma but when i say the elite i swear i was blown away by the image.
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post #5942 of 30628 Old 09-24-2008, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punksterz626 View Post

Hi,

Im not sure if this is the spot to post my question. Ive tried searching site for a dedicated elite 110fd but no sucess.

Well, here is the question.

BB has a open box 50' elite 110fd for 2800. Still has the full warranty, not refurbished. However, it is missing a remote, manuel and the unit has been sitting there for half a year (could be longer) turned on everyday. Ive literally stood there inspecting the set for nearly half an hour and the set looks flawless. Do you guy think its a good deal? I was originally looking for a sammy 58plasma but when i say the elite i swear i was blown away by the image.

If it would be me" NEVER BUY OPEN BOX" FLOOR MODEL, TV!
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post #5943 of 30628 Old 09-24-2008, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punksterz626 View Post

Hi,

Im not sure if this is the spot to post my question. Ive tried searching site for a dedicated elite 110fd but no sucess.

Well, here is the question.

BB has a open box 50' elite 110fd for 2800. Still has the full warranty, not refurbished. However, it is missing a remote, manuel and the unit has been sitting there for half a year (could be longer) turned on everyday. Ive literally stood there inspecting the set for nearly half an hour and the set looks flawless. Do you guy think its a good deal? I was originally looking for a sammy 58plasma but when i say the elite i swear i was blown away by the image.

Doesn't sound like that great a deal to me, but if 50" is the best size for you and you'd really prefer an Elite, it may well be a good buy. Was it a display model? (The missing remote makes me assume that it was.) If so, I'd really give it a good look for any IR issues, scratches, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about either the remote or the manual. You can program any universal remote to easily control it, and download the manual online.

Oh, just saw that you said it is a floor model. Didn't catch that before..... What was the original price on that unit?
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post #5944 of 30628 Old 09-24-2008, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

Is it live or is it Kuro...?


Is just KURO...

-THTS
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post #5945 of 30628 Old 09-24-2008, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punksterz626 View Post

BB has a open box 50' elite 110fd for 2800. Still has the full warranty, not refurbished. However, it is missing a remote, manuel and the unit has been sitting there for half a year (could be longer) turned on everyday. Ive literally stood there inspecting the set for nearly half an hour and the set looks flawless. Do you guy think its a good deal? I was originally looking for a sammy 58 plasma but when i say the elite i swear i was blown away by the image.

Offer them a firm twenty five hundred out the door and be done with it. If they accept your offer, well...you've got a KURO. If not, then look for an Elite model elsewhere (perhaps an AVS sponsor).

Oh, yes...ask them what was the SMRP...

-THTS
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post #5946 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank J Manrique View Post

Is just KURO...

-THTS

Lol, it's actually live. I went to the game tonight.

Growing Older But Not Up
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post #5947 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank J Manrique View Post

Offer them a firm twenty five hundred out the door and be done with it. If they accept your offer, well...you've got a KURO. If not, then look for an Elite model elsewhere (perhaps an AVS sponsor).

Oh, yes...ask them what was the SMRP...

-THTS

Go with 2G's in your pocket and show them CASH. Greenbacks usually get the job done quicker.

AT HAMMOND ROBOTICS WE'RE BRINGING THE FUTURE ... HOME
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post #5948 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 12:26 AM
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I agree with totalownership above... Especially since it's a floor model that has been turned on daily...
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post #5949 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

Is it live or is it Kuro...?



Just signed up with Chad B to have my 151 ISFccc calibrated. He should be in town the beginning of Oct. Gotta say, I'm kind of excited.

Hey, Where is my referral fee?

Perhaps I misremembered.

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post #5950 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

I know the Monster screen cleaner is something that should never be used on the screen, but what about the microfibre cloth that comes with it? I bought some of the Monster cleaner from Best Buy a couple of years ago, before learning how bad it is for screens. The cloth should be safe to use, right? Or is that cloth that comes with the TV more recommended?

The Monster cloth works great. I bought the Monster Cleaning Kit and just tossed the liquid in the trash. I've got a 6 and 3 year old who have both left fingerprints on my 151 and was able to get them off with the Monster microfiber cloth and some patience.

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post #5951 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Doesn't sound like that great a deal to me, but if 50" is the best size for you and you'd really prefer an Elite, it may well be a good buy. Was it a display model? (The missing remote makes me assume that it was.) If so, I'd really give it a good look for any IR issues, scratches, etc. I wouldn't worry too much about either the remote or the manual. You can program any universal remote to easily control it, and download the manual online.

Oh, just saw that you said it is a floor model. Didn't catch that before..... What was the original price on that unit?

No IR that i notice. the unit is practically flawless. Original clearnace price was 3900 then they dropped it to 2800. My concern is life of the plasma, on for at least 1/2 year, 24hrs a day. Is there a way to check how many hours of used it has? What do you guys think?
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post #5952 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 07:43 AM
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Hello all,

It's been a while since I've posted at the AVS, but felt compelled to do so to clarify my position regarding ControlCal.

Let me first state that I do not think that calibrating the Pioneer 9G panels via the ISFccc mode is a waste of time. ControlCal is a very well designed tool that will allow one to attain maximum performance from these displays. I myself own the software and will be making this option available to my Pio-9G clients. However, instead of using the ISF Day and Night modes for the purposes intended by Pioneer's marketing department, at Avical, we will be using the Day mode for a reference D6500 color temperature setting for color presentation and the Night mode to support a 5400K setting for B&W presentation.

That said, I've been able to attain near reference-level measurements on all of the 111 & 151FD panels that I've worked on within the Pure mode. Any advancement that would be attainable beyond what I've arrived at would not be visually significant. To say that the display would only be performing at 50% capacity if calibrated within the Pure mode verses the ISFccc mode is simply not correct. In fact, a 20% improvement would likely be more significant than what we can expect to see between the 9th & 10th generation panels.

In summary, while I have the highest regards for ControlCal and can see its usefulness in the Day(D6500) & Night(5400K) mode examples mentioned above, I do not think that it is mandatory to attain a quantifiably accurate picture on these panels - assuming that they're in fact being calibrated correctly within the Pure mode.

Again, this has been my experience thus far. Perhaps others are not getting the same results - that's certainly within the realm of possibility.

Eliab
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post #5953 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 07:57 AM
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Thanks Eliab for your clarification..

I want to again remind all that the labels ISF Night and ISF Day (actually: isf Night, isf Day) are meaningless, they are just labels. Many use these memories similar to what Avical is doing. Others will use them to calibrate one for BD, another for SD. Some that don't have complete light control will setup ISF Day for higher light output (vs ISF Night).

What is important to remember, there are 3 independent memories Per Input (2 for previous generations), all Controls (including Pure Cinema and the 9-Point gamma Controls) can be set differently for each memory (on each Input) - Unlike Pure which is Global.

I've said from Day 1, the primary benefit to the ISFccc Interface is the flexibility the additional memories give you. I also believe in the locked memory concept (so family and friends don't make changes - I have a teenager).

There is an additional benefit in the 9G ISFccc Interface and it can benefit those with ambient light issues: The ability to achieve > 40 fL without clipping or other issues. I know several Professionals are taking advantage of this for their clients now. We can thank D-Nice for this discovery.

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post #5954 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 08:01 AM
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turbe,

You're very welcome.

I couldn't agree with you more. The main benefit is not that it will afford a superior image - since that can actually be achieved within the Pure Mode - but rather one of flexibility.

Eliab
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post #5955 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 08:23 AM
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here is a major difference between Pure and ISF:

pure with contrast set at 38 outputs 32FTL
ISF with contrast set at 32 outputs 39.4FTL (d-nice has his contrast at 35 which outputs about 44FTL)

ISF is brighter -

pure is about where you want to be for night and isf is about where you want to be for day

isf has an auto that is about equal to pure for night watching
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post #5956 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 08:31 AM
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I have found a flaw with the ISFccc PureCinema mode that does not exist with the other user modes. Like all modes it is not perfect either. It is a situation where you must pick your poison.
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post #5957 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 08:32 AM
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i'll reiterate what i've said before - if you want to know what isf can look like - use Performance.
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post #5958 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I've said from Day 1, the primary benefit to the ISFccc Interface is the flexibility the additional memories give you. I also believe in the locked memory concept (so family and friends don't make changes - I have a teenager).

and for those with Kids, you know what's going on when you leave..... the kids are dancing around your house listening and watching your old copy of Footloose on VHS and fiddling with the Display's Controls to get that '80's look' right...




...or is that only at our house?

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post #5959 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

here is a major difference between Pure and ISF:

pure with contrast set at 38 outputs 32FTL
ISF with contrast set at 32 outputs 39.4FTL (d-nice has his contrast at 35 which outputs about 44FTL)

ISF is brighter -

Assuming that brightness and contrast are set correctly, there are a number of factors that will influence peak light output readings. Instrumentation, distance at which the measurements are being made, and ambient light are some. As had been the case with Pioneer's 8G panels, these displays will perform within their linear operating range with contrast set as high as 40 - BUT NO MORE. At that setting, I've been able to attain near 38fl @ 100 amplitude via my Photo Research PR-655 at around 8' distance in a darkened environment.

Eliab
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post #5960 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 08:51 AM
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Is it true that one can have finer adjustments with ISFccc? Such as with Gamma or other settings?

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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post #5961 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

Is it true that one can have finer adjustments with ISFccc? Such as with Gamma or other settings?

The standard Interface has gamma presets and the ISFccc Interface actually gives you access to each channel (RGB) on 9 points. Care must be taken when using the 9-Point gamma Controls.

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post #5962 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post

Assuming that brightness and contrast are set correctly, there are a number of factors that will influence peak light output readings. Instrumentation, distance at which the measurements are being made, and ambient light are some. As had been the case with Pioneer's 8G panels, these displays will perform within their linear operating range with contrast set as high as 40 - BUT NO MORE. At that setting, I've been able to attain near 38fl @ 100 amplitude via my Photo Research PR-655 at around 8' distance in a darkened environment.

Eliab

This is very true. Attempting to achieve a higher light level with a full raster versus a window does not work linearly.

I have also found the buzzing phenomina to be very bad if you push the light level any higher.
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post #5963 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I have found a flaw with the ISFccc PureCinema mode

ahh.. share

That reminds me.. the documentation was lacking in one area for those using the ISFccc Interface (as Jeff found out yesterday, again sorry ) though it was Posted deep in the Forum:

IMPORTANT: The Pioneer ISFccc Interface will timeout and return to Normal Operating Mode (auto END CALIBRATION) after 8 minutes of inactivity/not receiving any commands via the serial port. This is normal and part of the Display's safety mechanisms. WORK-AROUND/TIP - Change a Control Setting, simply Press the small SEND Button next to a Control to resend the current value and/or REFRESH every few minutes. The 8 minute setting cannot be changed in the Display or disabled.

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post #5964 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

ahh.. share ....

Advance mode did not function properly in ISFccc creating motion artifacts with a 1080p/24 source. This forces the use of Standard mode which does not have the same capabilities. The same source viewed in Pure mode with Advance was fine while ISFccc using Advance was highly flawed. The software in these displays is complex and each mode has some advantages and negatives.

As Eliab has said the difference in color between ISFccc and Pure is a false argument.

ISFccc is a great mode if you want to lock settings, but it is not a panacea.
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post #5965 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:39 AM
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ok thanks, that is the first issue report in regards to Advance with /24 (ISFccc). Investigation time..

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post #5966 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:43 AM
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Jeff, I want to confirm something for Pure Cinema which is an assumption many have made and are making even now.

For the Pure Cinema Control (ISFccc), what value for Advance did you use (2 or 3)?

Common mistake is to set Pure Cinema to 3 for Advance (3 is actually Smooth - the values are not the same as in the User Menu).
PURE CINEMA
0 - Off
1 - Standard
2 - Advance
3 - Smooth
Control Translation Tables Here

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post #5967 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:53 AM
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Jeff,

It was nice having you over! Jeff calibrated my 151 and repaired my audio set up. Kind of like a detective going through a case he found some errors and took care of them one by one. Anyone considering this process should have a pro come and work on your system. It's a no brainer!

We watched Transformers last night and my system has never, ever sounded better.

Jeff took the time to eq my room and also even out the amplification. Where in the past I would have to crank it up to get the full effect now with volume in that medium range you pick up everything......... My wife is happier as well!

Jeff, thanks again.... You added some years to my Showcase!!!
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post #5968 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliab View Post
Assuming that brightness and contrast are set correctly, there are a number of factors that will influence peak light output readings. Instrumentation, distance at which the measurements are being made, and ambient light are some. As had been the case with Pioneer's 8G panels, these displays will perform within their linear operating range with contrast set as high as 40 - BUT NO MORE. At that setting, I've been able to attain near 38fl @ 100 amplitude via my Photo Research PR-655 at around 8' distance in a darkened environment.

Eliab
As my current settings are based on the same meter you use, have you attempted to calibrate ISF-Day or ISF-Night with a 100% stimuli white window to 50fL? If you have not, you might want to try as linear performance isn't an issue with the 9G As a reference, I've attached a calibration sheet based on the setup criteria you listed above.

Also, please do not assume the 9Gs ISFccc modes are identical in performance to the 8Gs. They are not. The 8Gs ISFccc modes are literally carbon copies of Pure mode.

 

111FD151FD_ISFDayCalibrationReport.pdf 178.90625k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 111FD151FD_ISFDayCalibrationReport.pdf (178.9 KB, 3 views)
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post #5969 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Jeff, I want to confirm something for Pure Cinema which is an assumption many have made and are making even now.

For the Pure Cinema Control (ISFccc), what value for Advance did you use (2 or 3)?

Common mistake is to set Pure Cinema to 3 for Advance (3 is actually Smooth - the values are not the same as in the User Menu).
PURE CINEMA
0 - Off
1 - Standard
2 - Advance
3 - Smooth
Control Translation Tables Here

I think this is the problem as I've never seen any artifacts on any ISFccc mode using PC Advance. And for the record, I've calibrated 10 9G Elites with the ISFccc modes activated.
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post #5970 of 30628 Old 09-25-2008, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Jeff, I want to confirm something for Pure Cinema which is an assumption many have made and are making even now.

For the Pure Cinema Control (ISFccc), what value for Advance did you use (2 or 3)?

Common mistake is to set Pure Cinema to 3 for Advance (3 is actually Smooth - the values are not the same as in the User Menu).
PURE CINEMA
0 - Off
1 - Standard
2 - Advance
3 - Smooth
Control Translation Tables Here


That makes sense. No wonder it was a mess.
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