The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 49 - AVS Forum
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post #1441 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1027097

This one

Oh, okay. A couple hours ago, there was a lot of exchange/argument about warranties and what "authorized dealers" meant, etc. Mark Rubin said to keep the thread on technical issues only, and some posters disagreed with him. Apparently, he deleted all those posts and locked it.
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post #1442 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Oh, okay. A couple hours ago, there was a lot of exchange/argument about warranties and what "authorized dealers" meant, etc. Mark Rubin said to keep the thread on technical issues only, and some posters disagreed with him. Apparently, he deleted all those posts and locked it.

I hope thats not the case.
that is one of the fastest growing threads in AVS history if not "The" fastest.

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #1443 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 07:49 PM
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I'm not positive - but I think sometimes threads get locked for a while and then reopened - especially if folks request it. Though I haven't seen a thread get locked before without an explanation from a moderator. Usually Mark or whoever writes what the issue is and why it's being locked.

If there any mods reading this right now, I'd request the Pio general discussion thread be reopened. I have found that thread immensely helpful. If not, I guess we have several pio threads to choose from - or we can always start a new general discussion thread.
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post #1444 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashti View Post

I'm not positive - but I think sometimes threads get locked for a while and then reopened - especially if folks request it. Though I haven't seen a thread get locked before without an explanation from a moderator. Usually Mark or whoever writes what the issue is and why it's being locked.

If there any mods reading this right now, I'd request the Pio general discussion thread be reopened. I have found that thread immensely helpful. If not, I guess we have several pio threads to choose from - or we can always start a new general discussion thread.

I noticed that a "9G warranty claims thread" got started and locked. I am wondering if a mod accidentally locked the wrong one?

wHy So SeRiOus???



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post #1445 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I noticed that a "9G warranty claims thread" got started and locked. I am wondering if a mod accidentally locked the wrong one?

It's been reopened just now. They added a link to the warranty thread and then unlocked it.
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post #1446 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbb1 View Post

I have the 151. I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but using the calibration tool in Rock Band (using drums), I typically get about 120-145 ms lag as a result. I think I set it at about 130 ms. I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to calibration, but no professional.

!!!!!!!!!!!! I really hope those numbers are wrong!!
There's no way in hell you could play action video games with lag like that!

What video mode are you in?
What kind of signal are you sending to the 151--480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p?
Do you have all the video noise reduction circuits cranked up?
Do you have one of the "Pure Cinema" modes turned on while gaming?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just can't believe there is THAT MUCH lag on the 151?

Patience has its rewards.
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post #1447 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 08:18 PM
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I sure hope that is not the case. My pro 950 is great in that regard. If the my 151 is that bad, then I don't know what I am going to do.
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post #1448 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I sure hope that is not the case. My pro 950 is great in that regard. If the my 151 is that bad, then I don't know what I am going to do.

Don't know much about gaming. What's a "good" lag number and how do you measure it? My son plays MGS4 on it and it looks great....
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post #1449 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 08:28 PM
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i am not entirely sure on how to measure it, but anything under 60 is undetectable to most people. I did notice lag on my 71 series Samsung, and even more so on my buddys A650. When I play on my Pro 950, I notice no lag whatsoever. Apparently, Rock Band is a great way to measure input lag, and if the numbers projected above are even remotely accurate, then this panel will practically be unplayable.
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post #1450 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

i am not entirely sure on how to measure it, but anything under 60 is undetectable to most people. I did notice lag on my 71 series Samsung, and even more so on my buddys A650. When I play on my Pro 950, I notice no lag whatsoever. Apparently, Rock Band is a great way to measure input lag, and if the numbers projected above are even remotely accurate, then this panel will practically be unplayable.

In just observational, anecdotal terms, can this be compared to, say, that horrible motion jitter that I see when I try to watch sports on LCDs? If so, I don't think you have anything to worry about. I am really sensitive to that. My Sony SXRD didn't have any, and it would have been a deal-killer in the new set. The Kuro looks at least as good, if not better, than the Sony when watching baseball (bat & ball flutter are sickening on LCDs) or when my son plays his game.
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post #1451 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 08:38 PM
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10ms would be an "OK" amount for an HDTV, 60ms is "horrible", 120-145ms would make a display "absolutely useless" for anything other than games that can be calibrated for input lag (eg. Rock Band, Guitar hero or other musical games).

Patience has its rewards.
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post #1452 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

10ms would be an "OK" amount for an HDTV, 60ms is "horrible", 120-145ms would make a display "absolutely useless" for anything other than games that can be calibrated for input lag (eg. Rock Band, Guitar hero or other musical games).

Could we get some real serious feedback on this issue...as it might make or break our decisions for the Kuro as a gaming TV?
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post #1453 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 09:19 PM
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I'm getting a 6020 probably by Friday, and I really hope lag is not an issue as I game almost every night on my CRT currently... mostly action stuff which requires fast reactions.

I do seem to recall way back in one of these 9g threads, maybe 3 weeks back, that someone mentioned they were watching a 5020 I think next to some other plasmas and for some reason when the scenes changed they could see that the 5020 was lagging behind the other TVs. That may be related to this. I don't remember hearing a resolution to that issue.

Is there any chance the Game mode on these 9gs may bypass some of the video processing and give less lag?
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post #1454 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherhole View Post

Since no one seems to want to post their settings, I'll post mine...

I set mine up with Aetherole's settings, who put up some very good settings, but not quite to my preference. So I played a little bit to my liking, and then some additional modification based on the HDGuru review.

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Pure
Contrast: 42
Brightness: -8
Color: +5
Tint: G2
Sharpness: -7


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Advanced
Text Optimization: Off

Intelligence Mode: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Off
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 1


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Manual
R High 0
G High +5
B High +5
R Low 0
G Low 0
B Low 0

CTI: Off

Color Management
R +2
Y +2
G 0
C +2
B +2
M 0

Color Space: 2


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Low
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: Mode 1

The big thing for me was the brightness reduction. At -8, with all the other settings, the blackest blacks are almost imperceptibly brighter than the bezel.
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post #1455 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 09:45 PM
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nbb, whatever works for you, DEFINITELY go for it! My settings were just what works for me.

I'm interested, though... did you calibrate with a calibration disc? -8 brightness seems pretty dark.

As far as the game lag, my settings are no where NEAR 120-145ms. When I tested it and adjusted I got like 38ms lag.

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
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post #1456 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 09:52 PM
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Could you please try turning the Pure Cinema control to "OFF" instead of "advanced" and re-calibrate in Rock Band. When Pure Cinema is set to "advanced" the panel operates at 72hz, which is meant for films shot at 24 frames per second, NOT video games.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #1457 of 30650 Old 07-08-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darita View Post

I'm looking for someone who can calibrate my 151. I'm in the Sacramento area. I checked with Accucal, however there isn't a tour here until September and I should be ready sometime this month. I'd love a recommendation.

I'm assuming you mean UMR (Jeff Meier) at: http://www.accucalhd.com/

You should PM him if there is any possibility that you would want your audio calibrated too. The benefits of waiting until September are outstanding if you are interested in both audio and video.

You can also contact David Abrams at: http://www.accucalhd.com/

He works in Northern California more often than UMR, and he does just video calibration.

SethS (Seth Schnable) is another outstanding calibrator who is based in Santa Cruz. He will also do audio calibration, but doesn't require it like UMR. You can contact him at: http://www.avconsulting.us/

Jeff did our Kuro 6010, and our audio. I expected outstanding results on the video, and I was even more impressed with the improvement in our very modest 5.1 surround system. He also saved us money with his advice when I was upgrading some of our audio components. There was no extra charge for his advice.

Seth calibrated our Samsung HL-P5063 DLP RPTV, and the results were outstanding.

I've met David Abrams, and have collected many customer reports for the lists that are linked at the bottom of my post. I expect his work to be outstanding too.

Good luck.

Calibration Resources:

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post #1458 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 01:32 AM
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^^^^ sac is kind of far from me (santa cruz) but i'll be getting my pro-111 no later then 1 month from now and do want umr to calibrate it ....

ps 49 pages already? i gotta start reading the whole thread , what happend with the other official 9g elite thread?

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post #1459 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post

Was it there before?

Also, can you see it at your normal viewing distance?

Wasn't there before, it just showed up. I honestly cannot see it from my normal viewing distance. I am torn if I should call my AV guy and tell him to come pick it up and give me a new one or just live with it -- it's not like he is Best Buy or anything. Oh, Best Buy Canada (at least in my area) doesn't sell Pioneer TV anymore.
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post #1460 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 05:59 AM
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I just played some rockband lastnight for the first time on this tv (had an SXRD before it) and had no problems with delay. I did not bother to go in and calibrate as I wanted to see how it would perform with no adjustment. I played drums and everything was hitting perfect for me. This is on a 360 BTW. I also have heard that the PS3 is more laggy, I wonder if this was why someone was getting 130ms delay? FWIW, seems to me that this TV is great for gaming
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post #1461 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbb1 View Post

I set mine up with Aetherole's settings, who put up some very good settings, but not quite to my preference. So I played a little bit to my liking, and then some additional modification based on the HDGuru review.

Main Menu:
AV Selection: Pure
Contrast: 42
Brightness: -8
Color: +5
Tint: G2
Sharpness: -7


Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film Mode: Advanced
Text Optimization: Off

Intelligence Mode: Off


Picture Detail:

DRE Picture: Off
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 2
Gamma: 1


Color Detail:

Color Temp: Manual
R High 0
G High +5
B High +5
R Low 0
G Low 0
B Low 0

CTI: Off

Color Management
R +2
Y +2
G 0
C +2
B +2
M 0

Color Space: 2


Noise Reduction:

3DNR: Low
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Power Save Mode: Off

Orbiter: Mode 1

The big thing for me was the brightness reduction. At -8, with all the other settings, the blackest blacks are almost imperceptibly brighter than the bezel.

Thanks for posting your settings nbb1! I gotta say though, and no offense, but Brightness at -8 and gamma at 1 HAS to be crushing blacks BIG time and ultimately taking away a fair amount of shadow detail. When I set my Brightness to -1 with my Gamma 2 in "Pure" mode I feel like its ever so slightly crushing blacks so I keep Brightness at 0 with the Gamma at 2 to give me what I feel looks like a good balance. But then again Im no expert and each panel is different. Anyway just my 2 cents and thanks again for you effort.
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post #1462 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 07:51 AM
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I posted this in the General Discussion as well.

Just an FYI. I just got off the phone with Pioneer because I thought I was having a problem with the HDMI Control. I have the 151FD and the 94TXH Elite Receiver and when I raise or Lower the volume on the Reciever, the displayed volume on the PDP shows a different number. So, when the Reciever shows say -40, the Display shows -20 (after a delayed response). Pioneer tells me that this is normal, the two do not match! What?? What's the purpose of the volume display on the PDP then? The only thing you can use it for is to show that you are adjusting the volume and more or less guess by how much! I had hoped that if I connect the SR+ control, it would resolve this, but as someone already confirmed, and I now re-confirmed, the 151 does not have SR+ and only has SR (mono).

PQ is still great though! Batman Begins is awesome on this Plasma!

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post #1463 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neobunch View Post

Man, thanks nbb1, that was exactly what I was looking for. But now I'm not sure if I really wanted to know, as it seems horribly inadequate for gaming. Since you yourself said that you got that measurement for lag I assume you're not telling me the A/V offset that is measured first but the real input lag which has you playing the instrument to a moving target, right?

So, would you say that before you calibrated it the game felt seriously off? or, now that you've calibrated the offset, do you find the "drum fills" (the parts where you play whatever you want) to feel a little out of whack? (whereas the song feels spot-on)

And maybe I'm pushing it, but think about them as bonus questions :P Does doing the calibration with the guitar instead of the drums throw any significantly different results? (if you've tried)
using the TV's "game mode" made any difference? (again, if you've tried)
and one last question, are you on a PS3? (as there were some reports that the drum set/mic were, because of a software issue, more unresponsive in this regard on the PS3 version)

I've read several times the 5080 being regarded as the "holy grail" for HDTV gaming, so I'd hate to think that Pioneer made their new line-up worse in this regard (picture-wise they keep getting way better). So I guess all that neat image processing everybody praises comes at the expense of displaying the image late...

thanks again for the info, I'm not giving up on a pioneer just yet


This post won't be much help as I don't have the exact info in front of me, but when I calibrated Rock Band I think my lag was something between 25-50ms (and I think it was 25) - BTW it was on a PS3, I did it using the guitar, and this was in Pure mode not Game mode.

I will try to check it again tonight.
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post #1464 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 08:17 AM
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their was a member that bought a new 9g and did rockband with no delayed or such lag and he said it was so good he didnt boter to go to calibrate mode

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post #1465 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 08:52 AM
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Yeah, for ANY set even an LCD, 120-145ms of lag seems really high...

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post #1466 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

10ms would be an "OK" amount for an HDTV, 60ms is "horrible", 120-145ms would make a display "absolutely useless" for anything other than games that can be calibrated for input lag (eg. Rock Band, Guitar hero or other musical games).

I don't think we are talking about the same thing HDpeet. 10ms for a flat panel is absolutely fantastic in regards to lag. In fact, there isn't a panel in existence that has that kind of response time, thats how good that number is. 60ms is undetectable by almost any human. Anything above that is subjective to each individual.


And progprog, what you are referring to is judder, which the 151's also suffer from unfortunately (atleast mine and the one at my local BB does anyway). The lag we are referring to is the TV's ability to process the information sent to so quickly, that we do not notice any delay in response from the moment we make a movement with a gaming controller, and we get a reaction on the display.
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post #1467 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 09:10 AM
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That's fantastic news QQQ! 25 ms is a great number!
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post #1468 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I don't think we are talking about the same thing HDpeet. 10ms for a flat panel is absolutely fantastic in regards to lag. In fact, there isn't a panel in existence that has that kind of response time, thats how good that number is. 60ms is undetectable by almost any human. Anything above that is subjective to each individual.

I have to disagree with you there, Fanaticalism. I don't know where you go that 60ms number, but it's just wrong! 60ms is a lot of latency (almost 4 frames worth, at 60hz)!

Maybe, 10ms is a small amount of lag for a flat panel, but when you're used to playing first person shooters on a CRT running at 85hz+ (CRTs don't lag), you can feel the difference.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #1469 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 10:07 AM
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Here is an update regarding an earlier post of mine concerning the "zoom" modes for 4x3 picture on the 111 / 151. Thanks to some information in answers to my post, I returned to my dealer today with some non anamorphic widescreen DVDs to play on the PRO-150. When we played them in the Pioneer Blu-ray player set to output 1080p, the screen would not zoom, only do the "goofy" stretches and squashes. We changed the output of the player to 480i and, lo and behold, now the picture could be zoomed using the "zoom" function, resulting in a "full screen" image of the letterboxed movie (The Big Easy). Checking the 480i "zoom" with the DVD of Video Essentials (ch 17 in the Monitor Evaluation signals) showed a perfect height and with zoom on the 1.78:1 screen. The normal 4x3 screens were full width and had the top and bottom cut off.

I plan on using my DVD recorder for watching SD tv and tv DVD (usually 4x3 or letterboxed) as a 480i signal and the "zoom" will fill up the screen nicely with no distortions, except for the loss of some top and bottom on real 4x3. I do not know if these options for "zoom" are also available from the Pioneer built in tuner as my dealer uses a hi-def satellite signal for "TV" so the SD tuner was not set up.

Hopefully this "zoom" behaviour will be consistant with the next generation 111 / 151 (or as D-nice, I think it was, indicated even more and better options) and if so, there is a new Pioneer 111 in my future...... I have no idea why you cannot "correctly" zoom a 4x3 picture if the signal is 1080p/i!

Cheers,
P.E.H.
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post #1470 of 30650 Old 07-09-2008, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

I have to disagree with you there, Fanaticalism. I don't know where you go that 60ms number, but it's just wrong! 60ms is a lot of latency (almost 4 frames worth, at 60hz)!

Maybe, 10ms is a small amount of lag for a flat panel, but when you're used to playing first person shooters on a CRT running at 85hz+ (CRTs don't lag), you can feel the difference.

I got that number from multiple discussions on numerous gaming threads. Input lag is something that has been discussed time and time again. As mentioned before, it is definitely subjective, but there is a general consensus. Those that are highly sensitive to the lag, have even experienced lag measured at 15ms, which is I said it was subjective. But in most cases, as per multiple discussion threads, 60ms has been deemed tolerable by the majority.

If I remember correctly, this has even been discussed in the A650 owners discussion thread.

P.S. You are correct in regards to CRT's, which is why a lot of hardcore gamers keep thier Tubes strictly for gaming.
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