The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 589 - AVS Forum
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post #17641 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Many reasons why people calibrate.
1. To fit in
2. A aura about calibraton that makes people think it will be exactly as the director intended.
3.To say that they have "isf' picture

A true enthusiest should be able to tweak themselves without help from anyone. You should know what every mode does better than other modes and what every picture control does to improve the picture, a tool should not tell you.

Just because you have a harley davidson does not make you a biker. A ferrari does not make you a race car driver. Sure we are all enthusiests though.

I did it just for the piece of mind of having a 'benchmark' as a basis of comparison. Eventually, I would tweak it and stray away from it because my preference is not ISF proper.
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post #17642 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

No, for someone who's been on this forum awhile, it would be annoying to others if I inquired about it. The etiquette is to do a search. I've read enough over the years to know who the 3 main guys here are in my area. I then referred to turbe's list of 'pro' calibrators in my area remind myself of their contact info. Btw, I personally think Bob should be removed. Then I searched for reviews from those 3 guys. They were all 'good' but I called the 2 closest guys. Bob was the first to responded. The other person called a about week later, but it was a little too late by then.

Nothing to be sorry about. It's chump change to me, although I think I should have been paid for doing half the work!


Are your cms controls all at default? There is definately some improvements to be made adjusting those. Although maybe minor, it makes a difference.
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post #17643 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 07:51 PM
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Anybody have any experience with this stand:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1142302231168
I am thinking of using this for my upcoming 111FD. Thanks

Denon AVR-X2000------>Def Tech PM1000's------>Def Tech PC2000------->Sub(TBD)
Pioneer Pro111FD viewed from 7'------>Picture mode, ISF Day(calibrated by umr)
Sony PS3

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post #17644 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

I did it just for the piece of mind of having a 'benchmark' as a basis of comparison .

For me out the pox pure mode is my benchmark. It measures great according to many pro reviews. All improvements i can do to beat that is just iceing on the cake to a already great picture. Many people think it's to dim in a bright environment. But with the lights down you should be able to appreciate the accuracy of pure vs other modes. Isf day that supposedly does not have clipping while being much brighter i kinda find hard to believe, since the kuro is so easy to clip and requires about 30-35 at most contrast in pure mode to not notice clipping.
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post #17645 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 07:59 PM
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Bob needs one of these eyes, they are about $12,000
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post #17646 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

True, but when most people pictures are oversaturated from what i've seen with hundreds of screenshots and i tweak them and show them the difference, the response is always that's the way the director intended it. I personally think that's a bs response, as i think it's just a excuse.

Many reasons why people calibrate.
1. To fit in
2. A aura about calibraton that makes people think it will be exactly as the director intended.
3.To say that they have "isf' picture

A true enthusiest should be able to tweak themselves without help from anyone. You should know what every mode does better than other modes and what every picture control does to improve the picture, a tool should not tell you.

Just because you have a harley davidson does not make you a biker. A ferrari does not make you a race car driver. Sure we are all enthusiests though.

I don't think you'll get much of an argument about tweaking your display to what looks good to you. That's a fair statement and I agree, if you are trying to make your display look good "to you" - then by all means, do whatever you want that gets you there.

Just don't confuse yourself into believing that you have performed a calibration. You have not. You have performed an adjustment.

By definition, a calibration is setting to a reference standard(s). In order to achieve that, you need to know what those standards are and you need to be able to measure to them.

Whether you accept it or not, content is mastered to industry accepted standards. To view that content in the manner in which is was mastered, your playback equipment must be capable of faithfully reproducing those standards. This is only possible if your equipment has been calibrated to accurately reproduce those standards.

Whether your accept it or not, this is NOT possible without instrumentation.

You may not like the results, but they are what they are. If you do not like them, you are free to turn knobs, push buttons and move sliders - to create any level of reproduction that makes you happy. Your display may not be "calibrated" but, if you like that - fine.

Please stop with the nonsense.

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
"...and all the science, I don't understand. It's just my job, five days a week."
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post #17647 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Are your cms controls all at default? There is definately some improvements to be made adjusting those. Although maybe minor, it makes a difference.

Remarkable huh? That's ISF Day and Night default too, not Pure!

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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

For me out the pox pure mode is my benchmark. It measures great according to many pro reviews. All improvements i can do to beat that is just iceing on the cake to a already great picture. Many people think it's to dim in a bright environment. But with the lights down you should be able to appreciate the accuracy of pure vs other modes. Isf day that supposedly does not have clipping while being much brighter i kinda find hard to believe, since the kuro is so easy to clip and requires about 30-35 at most contrast in pure mode to not notice clipping.

I agree, but use Movie as my benckmark as my HMG pictures outside my window looks most real in this mode. All I do is look out my window and back at my display to see which mode is more realistic.

ISF day does clip a little depending on the source, then again my ISF modes are messed-up anyway.
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post #17648 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

I don't think you'll get much of an argument about tweaking your display to what looks good to you. That's a fair statement and I agree, if you are trying to make your display look good "to you" - then by all means, do whatever you want that gets you there.

Just don't confuse yourself into believing that you have performed a calibration. You have not. You have performed an adjustment.


I honestly disagree when the prefferance is accuracy. Sure i get your point, many prefer a cool temp, neutral temp, when warm is usually the most accurate. I certainly understand for many they have no confidence in their ability to judge what is accurate. And many adjust to their liking. But i adjust to get the best picture possible. Many will rely on 'standards' to assure them it is accurate. but i'm here to tell you standards that people come up with regarding the simple color control, is oversaturated with the majority of content. Believe me or not, it's the truth.
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post #17649 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dmargole View Post

Folks,

I have a PRO 111FD and occasionally notice horizontal lines which last a split second on some scene changes when watching a TV source - seems to happen more with commercials - honestly don't remember if I have seen it on a DVD but will start paying more attention.

Thought I would check with this forum to see if any settings may be causing this before I place a service call. I am using a HDMI cable.

Thanks,
Dean

This sounds more like something in the source, rather than a TV problem. TV signals are notoriously full of crap. Whenever you see something in only one source, that generally points the blame squarely at that source. Also, if it happens when the resolution changes, that's common behavior. (In fact, it's usually worse than you describe.)
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post #17650 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

2:30am - 3:00am: he needed a nap. I asked why he is not using his color meter. I then requested for a 'real' calibration using his color meter, but he said it didn't need it.[/list]

He was at your house until 3am!?!?! Mr. Bob needs to write you a check.

Growing Older But Not Up
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post #17651 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ThomasAV View Post

Ahh... I need help guys.

Just wall mounted my 151FD (was on my floor for awhile ) and hooked up OTA signal to it, the antenna is a Winegard HD 7698P that works great and gets great reception on all of my converter boxes. When I first hooked it up to the 151FD it scans for channels and then it looks very nice for OTA, but then when I got to channel 8 and 8.2 WSTV or something in Southern California the picture kind of goes black and when I hit display it doesn't even show like an antenna is hooked up to it, even in the menu's "channels" is not an option I can choose. I can't even change the channel to get off of it.

Is there a problem with the built in tuner for my 151fd? Any suggestions of how to restart everything and rescan all the channels? Please any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Thomas

Have you installed the latest firmware update? I know tuner issues were addressed in both updates, so maybe that'll help. Also, I've heard of an issue with some particular channel in So. Cal. (seems like it was ABC, but I'm not sure); maybe that's the one.
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post #17652 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

This sounds more like something in the source, rather than a TV problem. TV signals are notoriously full of crap. Whenever you see something in only one source, that generally points the blame squarely at that source. Also, if it happens when the resolution changes, that's common behavior. (In fact, it's usually worse than you describe.)

I've had a lot of problems with the 0905 firmware; (1) closed caption turns on when it's set to "On if Mute" and (2) Auto Size is set to "Wide-Zoom" during Full mode, but the tuner still does not resize it unless you change the channel or input and flip back.
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post #17653 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

I've had a lot of problems with the 0905 firmware; (1) closed caption turns on when it's set to "On if Mute" and (2) Auto Size is set to "Wide-Zoom" during Full mode, but the tuner still does not resize it unless you change the channel or input and flip back.

I haven't bothered to do the updates yet. I don't use any of the features to which they seem to pertain, so I just haven't been in a rush. This is the first I have heard of anyone having those problems after the updates. They only started after the update, with all other factors being equal?
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post #17654 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

He was at your house until 3am!?!?! Mr. Bob needs to write you a check.

Maybe it really was the Bob from your photo!!
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post #17655 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I haven't bothered to do the updates yet. I don't use any of the features to which they seem to pertain, so I just haven't been in a rush. This is the first I have heard of anyone having those problems after the updates. They only started after the update, with all other factors being equal?

It has started after the update and nothing else changed. I tried to roll back, but it didn't seem to work as the orange light never stopped blinking after 40 mins.

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He was at your house until 3am!?!?! Mr. Bob needs to write you a check.

He can have it. Whatever.
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post #17656 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Got me a new PC as big as my 151 from my desk view. PQ is up there too.

Its time for a new desk though!!

Welcome to the Mac club

AT HAMMOND ROBOTICS WE'RE BRINGING THE FUTURE ... HOME
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post #17657 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

He can have it. Whatever.

You know, in all this discussion about Mr Bob and calibration, etc., I don't remember if you said, or if anyone asked, whether you are happy with the results. People can debate his unconventional methods, but ultimately, all that really matters is how it looks to you in the end.
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post #17658 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

This sounds more like something in the source, rather than a TV problem. TV signals are notoriously full of crap. Whenever you see something in only one source, that generally points the blame squarely at that source. Also, if it happens when the resolution changes, that's common behavior. (In fact, it's usually worse than you describe.)

Great, now I can't even scroll through the channels. I did and Auto Installation / rescanned all the channels and now can't scroll up/down. Maybe this is a user error, but I've never had this problem. I think it's going to require me to clear my favorites in order to get full functionality again.


EDIT: yes, user error. Either the rescan, the firmware upgrade or my attempt to downgrade cleared my favorites. I had my channels set to scroll though my favorites list, so it couldn't scroll through a blank list.


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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

You know, in all this discussion about Mr Bob and calibration, etc., I don't remember if you said, or if anyone asked, whether you are happy with the results. People can debate his unconventional methods, but ultimately, all that really matters is how it looks to you in the end.

It wasn't what I paid for and how would I know if it's accurate or not? I can't say I like it and Movie still gives me more shadow detail. I also don't like having to scroll through a greyed-out ISF Auto.
LL
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post #17659 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Bob needs one of these eyes, they are about $12,000


Tools don't make the mechanic. If that was the case all mechanics would be created equal Would you bring a corvette to a lexus dealership or a well regarded corvette tuner? The best calibration one could hope for is the calibrator actually own the product. But nothing is ever guaranteed.
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post #17660 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nealh View Post

The only issue Aok2me bears is not stopping him when he did not use "equipment" to do the work. I knew nothing on calibration but would not allow anyone to "eye" it and say it was calibrated.

That's a very good idea.

Quote:


Mr Bob is cheat and crook based on the report here and should refund the calibration fee, IMHO.

I don't think you can't determine that from what you've read here.

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htwaits, I think you should post Mr Bob should be avoid for Pioneer calibration just like you have a recommend list.

So far I haven't read what I would call a calibration report by Aok2me. If he writes one about his impressions of his display, before and after calibration, I'll include it in the list.

Edit: Include all your observations about Mr Bobs methods too.

I've read all of the reports about Mr Bob, and I wouldn't have picked him to calibrate our Kuro plasma. If I owned one the quality CRT-RPTV displays that he works on I would probably put him on my short list.

I think that Aok2me is upset by the response to his original post about Mr Bob, and I understand that. I don't understand why Aok2me feels the need to attack others who have liked the work that their calibrator's did. I also don't understand how he came across Mr Bob unless he was reading about CRT-RPTV calibrations. I would have been more interested in Pioneer Kuro calibration reports.

Mr Bob is best known for the help he provides here:

Display Devices > Rear Projection Units > Don't dump your CRT RPTV!
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post #17661 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Tools don't make the mechanic. If that was the case all mechanics would be created equal Would you bring a corvette to a lexus dealership or a well regarded corvette tuner? The best calibration one could hope for is the calibrator actually own the product. But nothing is ever guaranteed.

Good point , you are 100% correct. Id rather have a calibrator who is ISF certified with many calibrations under his belt but had the lowest end tools to help him do the job than a guy with a million dollars in tools and little to no experience.

I can relate because I am an ASE certified mechanic with a lot of experience. Though I no longer turn wrenches due to an accident and a traumatic brain injury ( short term memory loss )
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post #17662 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

. . .Id rather have a calibrator who is ISF certified with many calibrations under his belt but had the lowest end tools to help him do the job than a guy with a million dollars in tools and little to no experience. . .

True enough, but I think that having the right guy/gal with the right tools for the job is the best scenario of all.
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post #17663 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I think that Aok2me is upset by the response to his original post about Mr Bob, and I understand that. I don't understand why Aok2me feels the need to attack others who have liked the work that their calibrator's did. I also don't understand how he came across Mr Bob unless he was reading about CRT-RPTV calibrations. I would have been more interested in Pioneer Kuro calibration reports.

I've been using the Best Buy type reviews as an example. It's the content such as "wow factor" that's misleading. Probably in good intent, but let's say a Best Buy customer knows nothing. However, after she got the calibration, she says "wow" it saves a lot of energy! Great job to Phillip my calibrator. He was very nice and even took off his shoes.

I also referred to the perspective and existing knowledge of the customer. If you have a very knowledgeable customer who had a good service, then it's more likely that it was a good job. I you had a dunce like me who thinks the calibration saves me energy, then you can't take my comments/review seriously. This I learned, that you can't believe every review you see. Even despite my dunceness, a sleepy eyeball calibration - maybe color blind or age affected eyes - isn't something I would ignore if I was reading it.


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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I've read all of the reports about Mr Bob, and I wouldn't have picked him to calibrate our Kuro plasma. If I owned one the quality CRT-RPTV displays that he works on I would probably put him on my short list.

Here is what Mr Bob is best known for the help he provides here:

Display Devices > Rear Projection Units > Don't dump your CRT RPTV!

I disagree with this. If I still had a CRT, I still would not put him on my list to sleepy eyeball calibrate my CRT.
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post #17664 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mvp2005fan View Post

True enough, but I think that having the right guy/gal with the right tools for the job is the best scenario of all.

True, but a guy can know his tool's capabilities and used them accordingly so he'd be able to squeeze every last drop of performance from them.

While the rich dummy might put on a darn good show to make you think he knows exactly what he is doing.
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post #17665 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

I disagree with this. If I still had a CRT, I still would not put him on my list to sleepy eyeball calibrate my CRT.


I agree but disagree as far as my eyeballing technique The difference with mine is i have hundreds of hours comparing video with my eyeball calibration. But if i was to pay i can not argue that you should get data telling you it's accurate and the calibrator should have used tools to get the results. But, i still think i could make a big difference with any display that's been calibrated by simply turning the color down which i bet most digital displays need and are running too hot.
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post #17666 of 30482 Old 05-31-2009, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

True, but a guy can know his tool's capabilities and used them accordingly so he'd be able to squeeze every last drop of performance from them.


Thankfully the human eye is a pretty good tool when it comes to video, photography images, contrary to popular belief.
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post #17667 of 30482 Old 06-01-2009, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Tools don't make the mechanic. If that was the case all mechanics would be created equal Would you bring a corvette to a lexus dealership or a well regarded corvette tuner? The best calibration one could hope for is the calibrator actually own the product. But nothing is ever guaranteed.

The *definition* of calibration is to calibrate relative to a reference standard, and the reference standard for displays is clearly defined. You and Mr. Bob are more than welcome to eyeball the settings on your TVs (or anyone else's TVs who are willing to let you screw things up), but don't call it calibration.

This might help you (but I doubt it): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calibration
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post #17668 of 30482 Old 06-01-2009, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Thankfully the human eye is a pretty good tool when it comes to video, photography images, contrary to popular belief.

Ever hear of a photographer by the name of Ansel Adams? Pretty good at photography. He invented a system called zone, to make his prints come out the best possible.

It was based on measurements. You know, kind of like calibration.

In other words, he didn't eyeball it.

Even though he had two, count 'em, two human eyes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_system

But hey, what does a guy like that know about photography that you don't, right?
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post #17669 of 30482 Old 06-01-2009, 01:33 AM
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How do you adjust brightness? Do you not use your eyes along with a test pattern? How do you adjust contrast? Do you not use your eyes? Sharpness? Same thing. But color, better break out a expensive chroma tool and measure the intensity to a standard for it to be correct. Better hope that standard does not result in oversaturation. We all know standards are spot on in every facet. Even pioneer got in wrong undersaturating there tv out the box in pure mode. Even though it's still oversaturated, like every tv that i have ever had in out the box setting. If you like torch color that's fine. A calibrator will hook up all day with that image, because they are told to meet the all accurate standard of color. That's the only part i disagree with. Enjoy your tv.
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post #17670 of 30482 Old 06-01-2009, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

The *definition* of calibration is to calibrate relative to a reference standard, and the reference standard for displays is clearly defined. You and Mr. Bob are more than welcome to eyeball the settings on your TVs (or anyone else's TVs who are willing to let you screw things up), but don't call it calibration.


So you dont think a isf calibrator with tools can not screw things up? I've adjusted screenshots of "isf" images of kuros and made huge improvements. Some are far from accurate. How many calibrators even know how to take a screenshot? If they cant take a simple screenshot would you trust them to calibrate your tv?
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