The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 606 - AVS Forum
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post #18151 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_axel View Post

Can you share the settings you made to Pure Mode? Thanks.

AV Seleciton: Pure
Contrast: 38
Brightness: +1
Color: +6
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -7

Pure Cinema submenu:
Film Mode: Advance
Text Optimization: Off
Intelligent Mode: Off

Picture Detail Submenu:
DRE Picture: On (Mid)
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 1
Gamma: 2

Color Detail submenu:
Color Temp: Manual
CTI: Off
Color Space: 2

Manual Color Temp submenu:
R High: +2
G High: 0
B High: +3
R Low: 0
G Low: +1
B Low: 0

Color Management submenu:
R:0
Y:+1
G:+1
C:0
B:+2
M:-2

Noise Reduction submenu:
3DNR: Off
Field NR: Off
Block NR: Off
Mosquito NR: Off

Others:
3DYC: [grayed out]
I-P Mode: 2
Screen Size: Full
Power Mode: Off
Orbiter: Mode 2

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post #18152 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 04:33 PM
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I'm pretty sure, but i could be wrong, that isf day is achieving this 'pop' by raising contrast past 40. "Supposedly' if you raise contrast past 40 with isf day there is no clipping. But there is clipping if you raise pure mode past 40.
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post #18153 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

I have no desire to engage you (as others have over various topics) any further on this subject, but I would like to hear the opinion of others on this. What I am really questioning is that the PQ (and I'm especially referring to "pop" and "brightness") in the ISF mode would be so superior to the Pure Mode that you one say the Pure Mode doesn't even come close. That's quite a dogmatic statement!

So, I'm inviting D-Nice or any other calibrators to chime in with their opinion on this. For that matter, I would like to hear from ANY member. I simply want to know if the difference between ISF Daytime and the Pure Mode is drastic, with the ISF yielding substantially more pop and brightness.

This has already been discussed (and most likely discussed this time next year)..

I did keep track of Elite Owner's posts (Here) but basically stopped since it was overwhelming that most Owner's who had Pure and the ISFccc Memories calibrated Professionally, they preferred the ISFccc Memories (I seem to remember two/three that did not).

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post #18154 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 04:46 PM
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So, I'm inviting D-Nice or any other calibrators to chime in with their opinion on this. For that matter, I would like to hear from ANY member. I simply want to know if the difference between ISF Daytime and the Pure Mode is drastic, with the ISF yielding substantially more pop and brightness.

There is definitely more pop to the ISF modes due to how they're built. Even if you have them set to mimic Pure in brightness, they'll still have more "oomph". Whether that is desireable to you depends on your own preferences. I still prefer Pure when the lights are out. Too much pop makes for an unnaturally overblown picture, IMO. During the day and/or lights on viewing, however, the ISF modes are fantastic.

How much brightness they output depends on settings. At their max, ISF Night/Day can acheive significantly more light output than Pure before harming your gamma curve and clipping whites.

Quote:


that isf day is achieving this 'pop' by raising contrast past 40.

Nope. ISF Day with a Contrast of 38 was good for around 55ftL on my 111. Contrast at 38 - or even 40 - in Pure is nowhere near that bright.
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post #18155 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

I have no desire to engage you (as others have over various topics) any further on this subject, but I would like to hear the opinion of others on this. What I am really questioning is that the PQ (and I'm especially referring to "pop" and "brightness") in the ISF mode would be so superior to the Pure Mode that you one say the Pure Mode doesn't even come close. That's quite a dogmatic statement!

So, I'm inviting D-Nice or any other calibrators to chime in with their opinion on this. For that matter, I would like to hear from ANY member. I simply want to know if the difference between ISF Daytime and the Pure Mode is drastic, with the ISF yielding substantially more pop and brightness.

Well... HW and I often end up on opposite sides of an issue.

But, this time I have to agree wholeheartedly with this statement about ISF mode:

Quote:


I specifically referenced that if you are looking for "POP" and "Brightness", the template that Pure is based on versus the ISF modes will result in very different results from adjusting their settings. Technically you simply can't get as much pop or brightness from Pure mode as you can from the ISF modes. Don't take my word for it, ask any one of the pro-calibrators including D-nice for their opinion.

I'm not a pro calibrator by any extreme stretch of the imaginaion But, using DVE/AVS discs and my BDP-83, I cannot tweak PURE mode to come close to ISF(night), in terms of pop/brightness.

For this very reason, I feel (IMHO) that the ISF modes are worth activating and using vs. Pure.

I read the link Zues provided regarding Elab's comments. While I value Elab's opinions and the data appears in order to validate what he says - to my eyes, a display calibrated using ISF(night in my case) looks better than if calibrated using PURE.

The difference is dramatic!

Contact Turbe, drop $75 for ControlCAL bundle, plop in D-Nice's settings (or any other reputable source that provides them on the ControlCAL forum) and check it out. If I'm wrong - you've pissed away $75. If I'm right... you're going to be very happy!

I'm betting on the latter.

Then (HW close your eyes ) after a little while, get a pro calibration, or better yet - buy the gear and do it yourself. This is, after all, our hobby - right?

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
"...and all the science, I don't understand. It's just my job, five days a week."
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post #18156 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 04:55 PM
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You guys are killing me. I just dipped into the "slush" fund to buy the 111FD. Now I have to spend a little more cake($) to unlock its true potential? AHH............the truth does hurt!!

Denon AVR-X2000------>Def Tech PM1000's------>Def Tech PC2000------->Sub(TBD)
Pioneer Pro111FD viewed from 7'------>Picture mode, ISF Day(calibrated by umr)
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post #18157 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 04:58 PM
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^^^^

Thanks guys for the quick responses! I actually DO plan on getting the software and activating the ISF modes someday, but I just found it hard to believe that the difference in modes would be that drastic.

I do believe in the testimony of many witnesses so I believe your united testimony that I would get more "pop" and "brightness" with the ISF modes. My dilemma right now though is: Do I want more brightness? I say this because my home theater room is almost pitch black (especially at night when I do 98% of my viewing), so I'm thinking of tbird8450's comment that he prefers Pure Mode when the lights are out.

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post #18158 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Nope. ISF Day with a Contrast of 38 was good for around 55ftL on my 111. Contrast at 38 - or even 40 - in Pure is nowhere near that bright.


Interesting. The template probably is similar to performance mode or something like that with the accuracy of pure. That's alot of ftl. Guys in the crt projector forums brag about 14-15ftl. How many ftl is needed for accuracy? I don't know. My contrast is at 28-30 in pure mode when i critically view at night.
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post #18159 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 05:03 PM
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Quote:


Thanks guys for the quick responses! I actually DO plan on getting the software and activating the ISF modes someday, but I just found it hard to believe that the difference in modes would be that drastic.

I do believe in the testimony of many witnesses so I believe your united testimony that I would get more "pop" and "brightness" with the ISF modes. My dilemma right now though is: Do I want more brightness? I say this because my home theater room is almost pitch black (especially at night when I do 98% of my viewing), so I'm thinking of tbird8450's comment that he prefers Pure Mode when the lights are out.

I would definitely grab ControlCAL and activate the modes. If you end up not using them, you're out what, $45 (software + monoprice cable)?

There are certain times where I use them even in the dark. For video games: always. And for certain sources, like older material that's a bit flat, I'll click them on.
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post #18160 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 05:06 PM
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How many ftl is needed for accuracy? I don't know.

It doesn't matter, really. As long as your color/gamma is on point and you're not clipping, light output is basically a matter of preference.
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post #18161 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

^^^^

Thanks guys for the quick responses! I actually DO plan on getting the software and activating the ISF modes someday, but I just found it hard to believe that the difference in modes would be that drastic.

I do believe in the testimony of many witnesses so I believe your united testimony that I would get more "pop" and "brightness" with the ISF modes. My dilemma right now though is: Do I want more brightness? I say this because my home theater room is almost pitch black (especially at night when I do 98% of my viewing), so I'm thinking of tbird8450's comment that he prefers Pure Mode when the lights are out.

More food for thought...

Calibrate the ISF-night setting with a little less brightness. That's what I use in the evening, in my quite dark environment. It still POP's more than PURE (to my eyes). I use ISF-day, which I tweaked brighter than night for daytime viewing, or with the lights on.

Now you have the best of both worlds.

I'd even suggest you try the PURE settings that are posted - you may prefer them. But, it's good to have choices. My two are ISF-night and ISF-day

Then consider some bias lighting (another can of worms opened) to really make the effect.

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
"...and all the science, I don't understand. It's just my job, five days a week."
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post #18162 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

More food for thought...

Calibrate the ISF-night setting with a little less brightness. That's what I use in the evening, in my quite dark environment. It still POP's more than PURE (to my eyes). I use ISF-day, which I tweaked brighter than night for daytime viewing, or with the lights on.

Now you have the best of both worlds.

I'd even suggest you try the PURE settings that are posted - you may prefer them. But, it's good to have choices. My two are ISF-night and ISF-day

Then consider some bias lighting (another can of worms opened) to really make the effect.

Thanks for the suggestions!

I do use a bias light (the Ideal Lume) and I love it! It sits right on the back of my Bush Universal stand and it works like a charm. I believe it enhances the picture (especially depth and black levels) and it definitely reduces eye strain.

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post #18163 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 05:32 PM
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Well then... the only thing standing between you and total bliss is Turbe

Go to it man. Report back here!!!

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
"...and all the science, I don't understand. It's just my job, five days a week."
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post #18164 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 05:52 PM
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Is it worth unlocking the ISF modes on a brand new panel? Is it something best served to do after break-in period?

Denon AVR-X2000------>Def Tech PM1000's------>Def Tech PC2000------->Sub(TBD)
Pioneer Pro111FD viewed from 7'------>Picture mode, ISF Day(calibrated by umr)
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post #18165 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

there is definitely more pop to the isf modes due to how they're built. Even if you have them set to mimic pure in brightness, they'll still have more "oomph". Whether that is desireable to you depends on your own preferences. I still prefer pure when the lights are out. Too much pop makes for an unnaturally overblown picture, imo. During the day and/or lights on viewing, however, the isf modes are fantastic.

How much brightness they output depends on settings. At their max, isf night/day can acheive significantly more light output than pure before harming your gamma curve and clipping whites.



Nope. Isf day with a contrast of 38 was good for around 55ftl on my 111. Contrast at 38 - or even 40 - in pure is nowhere near that bright.

+1

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post #18166 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

Sorry I can't be of more help. I elected to skip the PC input for my laptop and have the 151 treat it as if it was just another video source. It really shouldn't matter if its a desktop or laptop. I actually use my laptop from a docking station that allows the connections to remain in place even after disconnecting the laptop.

If the PC connection ultimately doesn't work out, you might consider the approach suggested above. Good luck and let us know if you find a solution using the PC input.

One other thought...if you go the route of DVI>HDMI connection you'll need a separate jack/cable to transport the sound from the computer to the Elite or AVR.

I know it doesn't matter if laptop or PC for the Elite, however as I dont have another screen I cannot change default resolution setting to see what works or doesn't.

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post #18167 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

Well... HW and I often end up on opposite sides of an issue.

But, this time I have to agree wholeheartedly with this statement about ISF mode:



I'm not a pro calibrator by any extreme stretch of the imagination But, using DVE/AVS discs and my BDP-83, I cannot tweak PURE mode to come close to ISF(night), in terms of pop/brightness.

For this very reason, I feel (IMHO) that the ISF modes are worth activating and using vs. Pure.

I read the link Zues provided regarding Elab's comments. While I value Elab's opinions and the data appears in order to validate what he says - to my eyes, a display calibrated using ISF(night in my case) looks better than if calibrated using PURE.

The difference is dramatic!

Contact Turbe, drop $75 for ControlCAL bundle, plop in D-Nice's settings (or any other reputable source that provides them on the ControlCAL forum) and check it out. If I'm wrong - you've pissed away $75. If I'm right... you're going to be very happy!

I'm betting on the latter.

Then (HW close your eyes ) after a little while, get a pro calibration, or better yet - buy the gear and do it yourself. This is, after all, our hobby - right?


+1 (see ...it wasn't that hard for us to agree. I think for some folks getting a pro-calibration EVEN after applying D-nice's settings might still be worth it, particularly for the guy that absolutely must have perfection at any cost. That just doesn't fit into my hierarchy of needs nor do I think I would appreciate what I believe would be a very minor difference from my current picture. In fact, absolute perfection might actually be less desirable as I've come to prefer a picture with substantially more "pop" that Pure provides. But that's just me.)

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post #18168 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post

You guys are killing me. I just dipped into the "slush" fund to buy the 111FD. Now I have to spend a little more cake($) to unlock its true potential? AHH............the truth does hurt!!

Its definitely worth the modest investment, plus I think you'll find it to be "fun" exploring the capabilities of your new 111 yourself with CC.

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post #18169 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

^^^^

Thanks guys for the quick responses! I actually DO plan on getting the software and activating the ISF modes someday, but I just found it hard to believe that the difference in modes would be that drastic.

I do believe in the testimony of many witnesses so I believe your united testimony that I would get more "pop" and "brightness" with the ISF modes. My dilemma right now though is: Do I want more brightness? I say this because my home theater room is almost pitch black (especially at night when I do 98% of my viewing), so I'm thinking of tbird8450's comment that he prefers Pure Mode when the lights are out.

Do I get to include myself in that thanks? The beauty of adding the ISF Day/Night/Auto modes is that for a nominal cost, you'll still have Pure plus your new ISF modes and be in the best position to decide for yourself.

Most folks posting here prefer ISF Day or Night settings, but there are a few owners that prefer their viewing experience with the lower contrast of Pure mode. Only your eyes will be able to ultimately decide which is better, however I'm quite confident you'll end up describing ISF Day and Night as having much greater "pop" than Pure. Whether or not you prefer that picture is something only you'll be able to decide.

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post #18170 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Interesting. The template probably is similar to performance mode or something like that with the accuracy of pure. That's alot of ftl. Guys in the crt projector forums brag about 14-15ftl. How many ftl is needed for accuracy? I don't know. My contrast is at 28-30 in pure mode when i critically view at night.

While I have no meters, your description above is actually a very good way to describe the PQ with ISF Day....accuracy of Pure + brightness of Performance.

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post #18171 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

More food for thought...

Calibrate the ISF-night setting with a little less brightness. That's what I use in the evening, in my quite dark environment. It still POP's more than PURE (to my eyes). I use ISF-day, which I tweaked brighter than night for daytime viewing, or with the lights on.

Now you have the best of both worlds.

I'd even suggest you try the PURE settings that are posted - you may prefer them. But, it's good to have choices. My two are ISF-night and ISF-day

Then consider some bias lighting (another can of worms opened) to really make the effect.

Have you activated ISF-Auto? I now find that I prefer it over both ISF-Day or Night (I have the color sensor connected which is active in Auto regardless of your settings in the Elite's menu).

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post #18172 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:38 PM
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I have tried ISF-Auto. On my 141 I don't have the color sensor and maybe that makes a difference. But, I don't like it. I've played around with that a lot and cannot find any settings that make it look as good to me as Night/Day.

Perhaps, when I finally get around to buying a meter and CalMan, I will revisit it.

I'm getting itchy to try my hand a self-calibration. So, that may be soon

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
"...and all the science, I don't understand. It's just my job, five days a week."
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post #18173 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexb76 View Post

I know it doesn't matter if laptop or PC for the Elite, however as I dont have another screen I cannot change default resolution setting to see what works or doesn't.

You should have various display modes in your Control Panel (assuming this is a MS Operating system on your desktop). Try opening Control Panel>Display>Settings. You should be able to adjust your Display settings from here depending on the chipset in your Desktop.

You can also go into the Advanced button from the settings screen and also adjust the Monitor settings.

Let us know if any settings in Display are helpful.

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post #18174 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

I have tried ISF-Auto. On my 141 I don't have the color sensor and maybe that makes a difference. But, I don't like it. I've played around with that a lot and cannot find any settings that make it look as good to me as Night/Day.

Perhaps, when I finally get around to buying a meter and CalMan, I will revisit it.

I'm getting itchy to try my hand a self-calibration. So, that may be soon


Forgot you have a 141. My guess is there really won't be any picture difference between Auto and Day if they have the same settings. The templates are identical other than the fact that Auto uses the light and color sensors (on a 151). Without the color sensor I think Auto will likely have an identical picture to Day.

Which may be a good thing since you can now make changes to Auto that start with the Day settings but are modified to your eye's preference. You can now compare your changes to your existing Day settings to see which look better to you. This approach essentially gave me a 3rd ISF mode to choose from and since I made adjustments in Auto to my personal preferences, it ultimately became my favorite mode.

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post #18175 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

Do I get to include myself in that thanks? The beauty of adding the ISF Day/Night/Auto modes is that for a nominal cost, you'll still have Pure plus your new ISF modes and be in the best position to decide for yourself.

Most folks posting here prefer ISF Day or Night settings, but there are a few owners that prefer their viewing experience with the lower contrast of Pure mode. Only your eyes will be able to ultimately decide which is better, however I'm quite confident you'll end up describing ISF Day and Night as having much greater "pop" than Pure. Whether or not you prefer that picture is something only you'll be able to decide.

I just got home and saw your post. You most surely are included in my giving of thanks for the info on the ISF mode vs. the Pure mode. In addition I want to apologize for questioning your dogmatism in regards to the ISF modes being better than the Pure mode. Your view was surely substantiated by fellow members who quickly responded to "set me straight."

I'm leaving on a trip in a few days for almost two weeks but I hope to get the software and activate the ISF modes when I return.

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post #18176 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by solcris View Post

I'm having trouble getting my Pioneer 151 remote to work with my DirectTV HD Dvr. Any help would be appreciated.

Do it the other way around. Set-up your DIRECTV HD DVR remote to operate the TV.

-Robert
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post #18177 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 07:16 PM
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I have tried ISF-Auto. On my 141 I don't have the color sensor and maybe that makes a difference. But, I don't like it. I've played around with that a lot and cannot find any settings that make it look as good to me as Night/Day.

Perhaps, when I finally get around to buying a meter and CalMan, I will revisit it.

I'm getting itchy to try my hand a self-calibration. So, that may be soon

Just to throw my two cents in...I use an Ideal-lume backlight at night, so the room is relatively dark. My ISF-Night contrast on my Pro-111FD is set to 18, while my ISF-Day and ISF-Auto contrast is at 30. Since the room in which I watch TV never really gets overly bright, I generally prefer ISF-Auto during the day, but definitely use ISF-Night at night. The TV's brightness just doesn't decrease to the low brightness level of ISF-Night using the ISF-Auto mode with my settings. I think it gives me a much better picture using ISF-Night mode - at night.

(In fact, I was blown away yet again after I watched The International tonight in ISF-Night mode. Is it me, or does this TV just keep getting better?!?!? Can we calibrate our spouses? )

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post #18178 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 07:36 PM
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(In fact, I was blown away yet again after I watched The International tonight in ISF-Night mode. Is it me, or does this TV just keep getting better?!?!? Can we calibrate our spouses? )

LOL!

Seriously though, I have approximately 250 hours on my 151 and I would swear the PQ is getting better with each passing day. And now that I've been given the prospect of improving it even more with ControlCAL and activation of the ISF modes, I believe I'm headed for Video NIRVANA!

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post #18179 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

I just got home and saw your post. You most surely are included in my giving of thanks for the info on the ISF mode vs. the Pure mode. In addition I want to apologize for questioning your dogmatism in regards to the ISF modes being better than the Pure mode. Your view was surely substantiated by fellow members who quickly responded to "set me straight."

I'm leaving on a trip in a few days for almost two weeks but I hope to get the software and activate the ISF modes when I return.

Have a good trip. I'll actually be on vacation myself next week (1500 mile motorcycle trip through New England states and eastern Canada). Should be nice and quiet in here next week Good luck on activating your ISF modes upon returning.

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post #18180 of 30482 Old 06-10-2009, 08:38 PM
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Have a good trip. I'll actually be on vacation myself next week (1500 mile motorcycle trip through New England states and eastern Canada). Should be nice and quiet in here next week Good luck on activating your ISF modes upon returning.

what are you riding, iam game for a long trip
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