The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 610 - AVS Forum
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post #18271 of 30546 Old 06-12-2009, 07:26 PM
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Welcome HID!

You're not really going to read all 500+ pages of this thread, are you? Yeesh.....! Go watch a movie, or some baseball....or something!
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post #18272 of 30546 Old 06-12-2009, 07:59 PM
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Luis Castillo drops a fly ball...to lose the game. What a winner...a$$h&*3
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post #18273 of 30546 Old 06-12-2009, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Welcome HID!

You're not really going to read all 500+ pages of this thread, are you? Yeesh.....! Go watch a movie, or some baseball....or something!

Or some Pirates. ....>>>
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post #18274 of 30546 Old 06-12-2009, 09:07 PM
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I will at least rent a prono on BD one of these days, out of curiosity more than anything. I kinda doubt there are any with 1080/24P resolution and Dolby TrueHD sound.
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post #18275 of 30546 Old 06-12-2009, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

I will at least rent a prono on BD one of these days, out of curiosity more than anything.

A prono? Is that what they're calling it nowadays?

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post #18276 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

I will at least rent a prono on BD one of these days, out of curiosity more than anything. I kinda doubt there are any with 1080/24P resolution and Dolby TrueHD sound.

OK a higher resolution picture is one thing. But why would you even want all the grunting and groaning in one of those movies to be in Dolby TrueHD sound?
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post #18277 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 01:59 AM
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Noticed something a bit odd today. Has anyone noticed a somewhat light colored vertical line on the very edge of the screen in dot by dot mode? I switched to each of the other modes and none of them do it except dot by dot. Granted I can only notice it when I'm very close to the screen, and it is on both sides. It starts at the top, maybe an 1/8th of an inch from the edge and goes straight down to the bottom, it does this on both sides. I wouldnt say that its a perfectly white line but it is whitish. It kind of blends in to whatever color is on the screen at the time but its still lighter than the real color. Its a pretty thin line as well, kind of hard to explain. Perhaps its something inherent to dot by dot mode. I've only tested this on a dvd, perhaps i'll put in a blu ray and see if it changes. The manual says that dot by dot mode matches the input signal to the same number of screen pixels (available for 1080i or 1080p signals only). I'm not exactly sure what that means. I just assumed the tv displayed the same either way. For example, Full mode looks exactly the same as dot by dot on a dvd. I'm gonna try this out on blu ray and see if those lines go away.
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post #18278 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Sorry, I missed this post earlier. When watching Blu-rays, not much of this discussion applies. The Oppo sends its 1080p/24 signal, and in either ADVANCE or STANDARD, the Kuro simply engages the 72Hz refresh rate. So there is no difference between the two PC modes.

For DVDs, I have 24fps turned OFF, just like you. And when set to 1080p, the Oppo outputs regular DVDs at 1080p/60. The Kuro's Pure Cinema modes, even ADVANCE, leave that resolution alone and keep the refresh rate at 60Hz.


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post #18279 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thompson25 View Post

Noticed something a bit odd today. Has anyone noticed a somewhat light colored vertical line on the very edge of the screen in dot by dot mode? I switched to each of the other modes and none of them do it except dot by dot. Granted I can only notice it when I'm very close to the screen, and it is on both sides. It starts at the top, maybe an 1/8th of an inch from the edge and goes straight down to the bottom, it does this on both sides. I wouldnt say that its a perfectly white line but it is whitish. It kind of blends in to whatever color is on the screen at the time but its still lighter than the real color. Its a pretty thin line as well, kind of hard to explain. Perhaps its something inherent to dot by dot mode. I've only tested this on a dvd, perhaps i'll put in a blu ray and see if it changes. The manual says that dot by dot mode matches the input signal to the same number of screen pixels (available for 1080i or 1080p signals only). I'm not exactly sure what that means. I just assumed the tv displayed the same either way. For example, Full mode looks exactly the same as dot by dot on a dvd. I'm gonna try this out on blu ray and see if those lines go away.

Is this cable, satellite or off the air? If it is any of those, there is nothing wrong. This is just stuff that is in the source signal that the broadcasters never thought you would see because of overscan. Dot by dot eliminates all overscan so you may see things in the signal you never saw before. Most broadcasters will eventually stop these problems at the source.

If you see this effect with DVD or Blu-Ray, then there may be something wrong. It may also be caused by the orbiter. You can turn off the orbiter function for dot by dot.

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post #18280 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thompson25 View Post

Noticed something a bit odd today. Has anyone noticed a somewhat light colored vertical line on the very edge of the screen in dot by dot mode? I switched to each of the other modes and none of them do it except dot by dot. Granted I can only notice it when I'm very close to the screen, and it is on both sides. It starts at the top, maybe an 1/8th of an inch from the edge and goes straight down to the bottom, it does this on both sides. I wouldnt say that its a perfectly white line but it is whitish. It kind of blends in to whatever color is on the screen at the time but its still lighter than the real color. Its a pretty thin line as well, kind of hard to explain. Perhaps its something inherent to dot by dot mode. I've only tested this on a dvd, perhaps i'll put in a blu ray and see if it changes. The manual says that dot by dot mode matches the input signal to the same number of screen pixels (available for 1080i or 1080p signals only). I'm not exactly sure what that means. I just assumed the tv displayed the same either way. For example, Full mode looks exactly the same as dot by dot on a dvd. I'm gonna try this out on blu ray and see if those lines go away.

Its your cable signal. Some video signals from your cable company have extra information encoded in the signal that results in a display around the edge. When viewing in dotbydot your pioneer is showing everything their sending. Unfortunately the only solution if it bothers you is to watch that programming in a mode other than dotbydot.

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post #18281 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 06:07 AM
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Yeah the Sox game last night was awesome. For regular TV watching(Direct TV) is there a preferred setting for PC? Or does it only effect 24fps material and best to leave it off for tv watching?
I did hook up the color sensor and turned on the light sensor last night. I watched a bit of the Sox game in Optimum. It looked wonderful more vibrant than Pure, but not as "accurate" I'm sure.

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post #18282 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post

Yeah the Sox game last night was awesome. For regular TV watching(Direct TV) is there a preferred setting for PC? Or does it only effect 24fps material and best to leave it off for tv watching?
I did hook up the color sensor and turned on the light sensor last night. I watched a bit of the Sox game in Optimum. It looked wonderful more vibrant than Pure, but not as "accurate" I'm sure.

I will occasionally watch programming in Standard or Optimum for more "pop" and "brightness" as long as the flesh tones remain accurate and the colors aren't too over saturated. I can't stand it when the flesh tones are off (usually with a red push) and when the colors become cartoonish.

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post #18283 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

I will occasionally watch programming in Standard or Optimum for more "pop" and "brightness" as long as the flesh tones remain accurate and the colors aren't too over saturated. I can't stand it when the flesh tones are off (usually with a red push) and when the colors become cartoonish.

I agree. When I was watching Speed Racer last night(very colorful movie) Standard and optimum looked to cartoonish to me. Pure was absolutely gorgeous, wonderful skin tones. I like optimum for day time viewing.

Few other quick notes. The antiglare coating on this panel is unbelievable. I have a bay window that lies perpendicular to the panel and it handles glare nicely(exponentially better than my RP LCD). Build date is April 2009. No functionality issues to note. Screen is perfect, not one dead pixel to speak of

I can't wait to finish break-in period. Also, I have Wide-zoom selected to fill screen when watching 4:3 material but it still seems to have bars on sides?

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post #18284 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

That doesn't quite make sense to me. If it is set to 1080i, what signals does that apply to? As I recall, I had to play with options on a cable box for my folks and there was a separate setting for 480i signals, kind of hidden in a separate non-user-looking menu. (I can look that up and see if I can find it.) Are you sure you can't make it upscale 480i to 1080i?

If indeed the box won't upscale, then the Kuro will. In which case, you'd want to try different Pure Cinema modes to see what you like best. I would try all of them, using an SD movie channel.
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EDIT: Alex, I just looked up that box, and what I read seemed to confirm what I thought about those boxes. Unless you specifically engage the 4:3 override in the User Setiings, it should be upscaling your SD channels to 1080i if that's the output you've selected. (See this setup guide.) You can check this with the Kuro. Making sure that HDMI output is set to 1080i and the 4:3 override is not engaged in the cable box, select an SD channel. When you press the "Display" button for your Kuro, it will tell you the resolution of the incoming signal.

I also have a Motorola 6416 HDMI STB connected to my 151. I'd be interested in your feedback on my findings using the different settings in the Motorola box.

I had Smooth for Pure Cinema on the 151 and the following settings in the STB with the following results.

I was primarily testing to find which combination produces the best upscaling results for sd cable input as that seems to be where there's the greatest variability in PQ. All the true HD cable signals produce a great 1080i picture on the 151 using dotbydot. If there's no 1080i coming into the 151 then there's no option for dotbydot.

If the STB has the 4:3 Override set to "OFF", the PQ is OK but there's very limited choices to avoid letter boxing (The picture is rather small on the screen). If you want to use the entire 151 screen, the PQ is definitely degraded and grainy, motion is very poor.

If the STB is set to "Stretch", the output from the STB is 1080i to the 151 but the picture is severely degraded.... grainy and poor motion. There are more options to avoid letter boxing, but the PQ isn't very good.

If the STB is set to "480P", the output from the box is 480P to the 151 but the picture is still degraded....grainy and poor motion. There are more options than OFF to avoid letter boxing but the PQ isn't that great.

I find that to get the best PQ on the 151 for SD cable signals, that setting the 4:3 Override to "480i" results in the least grainy picture and the best motion. This mode also provides the best picture when using "Full" mode on the 151 to utilize the entire screen. There is no option for a dotbydot mode when inputting 480i from the STB.

Would you have expected that 480i output from the STB combined with Pure Cinema Smooth mode to produce the best SD picture and motion quality when using the full screen (Full mode)? Or should I be trying some other combination to get betting PQ and motion from SD cable signals? Too many variables to figure out.....

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post #18285 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

OK a higher resolution picture is one thing. But why would you even want all the grunting and groaning in one of those movies to be in Dolby TrueHD sound?

Not to mention the chance of image retention
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post #18286 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 09:23 AM
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Not to mention the chance of image retention

ROFL

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post #18287 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

I also have a Motorola 6416 HDMI STB connected to my 151. I'd be interested in your feedback on my findings using the different settings in the Motorola box.

Would you have expected that 480i output from the STB combined with Pure Cinema Smooth mode to produce the best SD picture and motion quality when using the full screen (Full mode)? Or should I be trying some other combination to get betting PQ and motion from SD cable signals? Too many variables to figure out.....

I guess I would have hoped that the STB was a better upscaler. (And now another reason to hate the cable company.... ) While the 6416 can upscale 480 to 1080, based on your description of its performance, it sounds like you wouldn't want it to.

When talking generalized "best settings," there's really no such thing with TV signals. Not only do you have the usual personal preference caveats, but the quality of both the signal and the external tuner can vary so much. It's the area where all the "accurate" and "minimal processing" discussion kind of goes out the window, since you want to apply whatever tricks you can just to get a decent picture.

SMOOTH is not something I would use for disc sources, but if it improves your cable PQ, that's great. In your experimenting, looks like you kept it on SMOOTH while testing all the other combinations. Did you try any of the other PC modes, or do you just know that you prefer that one?
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post #18288 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 11:24 AM
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Please forgive the ignorance but will Pure Cinema Advance detect a SD film from a cable box ( as opposed to a regular television program) and process it to 24fps or does that only apply to DVD and blue ray?
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post #18289 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 11:28 AM
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Please forgive the ignorance but will Pure Cinema Advance detect a SD film from a cable box ( as opposed to a regular television program) and process it to 24fps or does that only apply to DVD and blue ray?

In ADVANCE, it's supposed to detect "film-based" (telecined) content from any source.
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post #18290 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I guess I would have hoped that the STB was a better upscaler. (And now another reason to hate the cable company.... ) While the 6416 can upscale 480 to 1080, based on your description of its performance, it sounds like you wouldn't want it to.

When talking generalized "best settings," there's really no such thing with TV signals. Not only do you have the usual personal preference caveats, but the quality of both the signal and the external tuner can vary so much. It's the area where all the "accurate" and "minimal processing" discussion kind of goes out the window, since you want to apply whatever tricks you can just to get a decent picture.

SMOOTH is not something I would use for disc sources, but if it improves your cable PQ, that's great. In your experimenting, looks like you kept it on SMOOTH while testing all the other combinations. Did you try any of the other PC modes, or do you just know that you prefer that one?


You got me motivated... I really wanted to find out which combination of settings resulted in the best PQ for SD CABLE viewing. Since this source is generally the worst source for viewing, it had the most upside IMO for finding the best combination of settings.

So here's what I did to find the best combination. I got my 15 yr old, sport fanatic, to help in validating what my own eyes were seeing. (We agreed on all the findings below). I wanted to minimize as many variables as possible so I could isolate key settings. For the purpose of this evaluation, "best PQ" is defined as clarity of object motion in the scene as well as motion from camera panning.

I was able to find a relatively crappy cable signal for a European Motocross competition. I figured a crappy signal would allow us to see changes in PQ more easily. There were lot's of camera panning shots and lot's of high speed motion from the competitors. This source was excellent for judging motion with flapping shirts, high-speed panning across the scene and fast moving objects.

Next I limited all viewing to the factory STANDARD AV mode with the factory settings. I started with the 4:3 Override set to 480i in the STB. I then changed the Cinema modes one at a time and watched the motocross for about 2-4 minutes to make a judgment about PQ.

Cinema mode results:
OFF = some level of pixelation and motion blurr
STANDARD = least pixelation and motion blurr
SMOOTH = nearly the same amount of pixelation and motion blurr as OFF
ADVANCED = About the same pixelation and blurr as SMOOTH and OFF but with an occassional artifact

I then wanted to test each of the STB 4:3 Override settings against each of the Cinema modes.

STB 4:3 Override setting:
OFF = somewhat improved PQ over 480i but the picture was much smaller on the 151 (which probably accounts for the better picture). If you increased the picture size using Full, Wide or Cinema in the 151, then the motion was degraded below the performance of 480i.
480i = See Cinema mode results
480p = Poor overall.....much pixelation
STRETCHED = About the same as using OFF and then stretching the picture using the 151's controls. Not very good.

While the results above may appear confusing, the conclusion was actually clear for both of us. If you're looking for the best combination of settings between your Motorola 6416 cable box and your Elite to achieve the best SD cable motion PQ, I recommend the following:

CONCLUSION
Set 151 Cinema mode to STANDARD and
Set Motorola STB to 480i

You'll still want an Advanced cinema mode for viewing blu-ray, however I would definitely have a few AV modes with Cinema set to STANDARD and your cable box set to 480i. I have now changed my opinion of Smooth for viewing sd cable based on this personal experimenting. I hope that helps others looking to maximizing SD Cable TV viewing.

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post #18291 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

If you're looking for the best combination of settings between your Motorola 6416 cable box and your Elite to achieve the best SD cable motion PQ, I recommend the following:

CONCLUSION
Set 151 Cinema mode to STANDARD and
Set Motorola STB to 480i

You'll still want an Advanced cinema mode for viewing blu-ray, however I would definitely have a few AV modes with Cinema set to STANDARD and your cable box set to 480i. I have now changed my opinion of Smooth for viewing sd cable based on this personal experimenting. I hope that helps others looking to maximizing SD Cable TV viewing.

Really helpful info, heatwave. I know it's tedious and time-consuming to run those kinds of "experiments," but it's really the best way to determine what works best for a given setup, and I'm sure other Motorola 64xx series owners will find it very useful.

I wanted to mention that STANDARD will give you the same result as ADVANCE for blu-rays, i.e., it will simply engage the 72Hz refresh rate. So in connection scenarios where the cable box and BD player come in on the same Kuro input (a single HDMI from the receiver), leaving Pure Cinema on STANDARD would satisfy all the settings preferences you describe above. Especially when the PC mode is "locked" into the ISF settings, that's a good solution.
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post #18292 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 02:31 PM
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This was just on DVD. I also tried my Blu ray player and it did it as well except it was almost impossible to tell. I havent tried my Cable box yet. Not a huge deal. Almost impossible to tell without being right up on the screen =)
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post #18293 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Thompson25 View Post

This was just on DVD. I also tried my Blu ray player and it did it as well except it was almost impossible to tell. I havent tried my Cable box yet. Not a huge deal. Almost impossible to tell without being right up on the screen =)

If you only see it when you're right up close, it doesn't sound like an issue. There are quite a few things you can see up close that you don't from viewing distance, like the pixels themselves. When you do try your cable signals, you're apt to see a lot of other stuff (in DotxDot) that isn't related to this. FULL is often better for cable signals, as the slight overscan trims the garbage on the edges of the image.

(PS: If you use the "Quote" button to include the post you're responding to, it makes the conversation easier to follow, especially when there are a lot of other-topic posts in between. )
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post #18294 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Really helpful info, heatwave. I know it's tedious and time-consuming to run those kinds of "experiments," but it's really the best way to determine what works best for a given setup, and I'm sure other Motorola 64xx series owners will find it very useful.

I wanted to mention that STANDARD will give you the same result as ADVANCE for blu-rays, i.e., it will simply engage the 72Hz refresh rate. So in connection scenarios where the cable box and BD player come in on the same Kuro input (a single HDMI from the receiver), leaving Pure Cinema on STANDARD would satisfy all the settings preferences you describe above. Especially when the PC mode is "locked" into the ISF settings, that's a good solution.

So.... if all video signals come into an Elite on a single input, is there ever a situation where ADVANCED Cinema has an advantage over STANDARD mode?

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post #18295 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 04:07 PM
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SD? SD? You have FIOS and you watch SD????

I have not watched SD since I installed FIOS almost a year ago!!! If it is not on an HD channel - I don't watch it. There are almost 100 HD channels, what could you possibly need to view in SD???

Life is too short to watch SD

BTW, I have the same DVR. I send my 141 1080i and I use ADVANCED for everything, unless it burps & farts, then I flip that program/movie over to STANDARD. At the conclusion, I go back to ADVANCED.

It has to be really bad, though. Since I need to use CC to make the switch.

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post #18296 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

SD? SD? You have FIOS and you watch SD????

I have not watched SD since I installed FIOS almost a year ago!!! If it is not on an HD channel - I don't watch it. There are almost 100 HD channels, what could you possibly need to view in SD???

Life is too short to watch SD

BTW, I have the same DVR. I send my 141 1080i and I use ADVANCED for everything, unless it burps & farts, then I flip that program/movie over to STANDARD. At the conclusion, I go back to ADVANCED.

It has to be really bad, though. Since I need to use CC to make the switch.

I have FIOS and use SDTV...WGN uses black bars on alot of the programming on the HD channel and I lover Becker, so I use SDTV for it.
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post #18297 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

So.... if all video signals come into an Elite on a single input, is there ever a situation where ADVANCED Cinema has an advantage over STANDARD mode?

Yes, if you like inverse telecine. The one source we didn't mention was SD-DVD. While STANDARD and ADVANCE treat blu-ray's 1080p/24 signal exactly the same way, they would treat a DVD's 480i signal differently.

If the BD player is used for both BDs and DVDs, and it's set to source direct, the Kuro in ADVANCE will only engage 72Hz for BDs. But for DVDs, it will upscale, perform inverse telecine, and engage 72Hz. So that's the one situation where it makes a difference. If, on the other hand, the BD player is set to do the DVD upscaling, the Kuro will receive either 1080p/60 or 1080p/24 for DVDs (depending on your 24fps setting), and again, STANDARD and ADVANCE will treat those the same.
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post #18298 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

I have not watched SD since I installed FIOS almost a year ago!!! If it is not on an HD channel - I don't watch it. There are almost 100 HD channels, what could you possibly need to view in SD???

Life is too short to watch SD

I'm a news junkie, and I only get CNN, CNBC, and MSNBC in SD. Comcast keeps taunting me with word that they'll be available in HD soon, but still no go. Also, IFC, Sundance, and the Encore movie channels are all SD.
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post #18299 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 05:17 PM
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If you only see it when you're right up close, it doesn't sound like an issue. There are quite a few things you can see up close that you don't from viewing distance, like the pixels themselves. When you do try your cable signals, you're apt to see a lot of other stuff (in DotxDot) that isn't related to this. FULL is often better for cable signals, as the slight overscan trims the garbage on the edges of the image.

(PS: If you use the "Quote" button to include the post you're responding to, it makes the conversation easier to follow, especially when there are a lot of other-topic posts in between. )

Oh, well thats a lot easier haha. Ugh im retarded. I'm about 110 hours in to the breakin process right now. I really wanna play some video games but im kind of afraid to because of what happened before. After 150 hours or so should I be okay to watch movies with black bars and play games that have stationary graphics on the screen? I just wanna be as careful as I can.
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post #18300 of 30546 Old 06-13-2009, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

I'm a news junkie, and I only get CNN, CNBC, and MSNBC in SD. Comcast keeps taunting me with word that they'll be available in HD soon, but still no go. Also, IFC, Sundance, and the Encore movie channels are all SD.

Also Turner Classic Movies - SD
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