The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 745 - AVS Forum
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post #22321 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

hate to do this to a fellow susano owner oddeo, but...

you'll need to provide us with testing methodology, patterns used, etc., for that post to hold any water at all...

as it's counter to "how things work"...

Use your eyes, Chris. I noticed the immediate improvement in about, oh 10 seconds.

Measurements, schmeasurements... Try one, see for yourself. If you don't see the obvious improvements, send it back and be done with it.
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post #22322 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 08:32 AM
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If the difference was that dramatic, then your incoming power must have been full of noise and riddled with serious voltage fluctuations.

Unless your AC supply is just plain old horrible, these things will not add any real value, other than any surge/spike protection they might contain.

I suspect that this a case of seeing what you want to see.

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
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post #22323 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddeofile View Post


Measurements, schmeasurements...

I have always been a skeptic of what power conditioners can do for plasma displays since they (the plasma display) use switching power supplies

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post #22324 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

If the difference was that dramatic, then your incoming power must have been full of noise and riddled with serious voltage fluctuations.

Even that is unlikely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I have always been a skeptic of what power conditioners can do for plasma displays since they (the plasma display) use switching power supplies

Everything uses switching power supplies. And even if they didn't there are multiple digital steps between the power and the data and what's on the screen. Each step rationalizes the incoming data as is the nature of digital transforms.

Of course all someone has to do is produce evidence that the output of the various power-conversion modules is changing as a result of anything between the wall and power socket and people will reconsider.

By the way I don't believe these discussions have anything to do with AVScience and prefer to avoid them like the plague but statements like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by oddeofile View Post

Measurements, schmeasurements... Try one, see for yourself. If you don't see the obvious improvements, send it back and be done with it.

are both inflammatory and condescending.
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post #22325 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 08:52 AM
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Skeptics are the content of a closed mind. Learn to open up and see for yourself. Don't take my word for it. However, if you wish to live in the closed world of skepticisim towards everything, frankly, that ain't my problem as the old saying goes.

I live with an improved system. Do you?

In response, yes, in S. CA where I live, my voltage will swing from 117 to 128 volts, depending on the load - enough to damage stuff. The incoming THD is around 2.8-3.5% depending on the time of day and load on the line. The output THD is usually .2-0.3% off the outputs of my PPP's. Serious reduction in line THD and pure AC power now, not a clipped voltage signal which is all too common.

I live in a clean AC world. And if you choose to believe otherwise - its a free country. I enjoy the beauty of it. And, I don't have to explain myself or what I see to anyone else but me. I just report what I see and hope somebody else has an open mind.

But, apparently, that is too much to ask for some folks.
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post #22326 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

If the difference was that dramatic, then your incoming power must have been full of noise and riddled with serious voltage fluctuations.

Unless your AC supply is just plain old horrible, these things will not add any real value, other than any surge/spike protection they might contain.

I suspect that this a case of seeing what you want to see.

The above is the most likely reason, I'd say, especially if one lives in a big city, near power transformers, etc. I do, so I have protection for my equipment. Clean power and stable voltage are a boon to electronic circuits. I've noticed that in my own system and in demonstrations at audio salons. But, this is a potential thread hijack-type topic, so let's tread carefully. None of us are in a position to say oddeofile didn't see what he saw, after all, and power issues seem the best likely explanation for the improvement.
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post #22327 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddeofile View Post

Skeptics are the content of a closed mind. Learn to open up and see for yourself. Don't take my word for it. However, if you wish to live in the closed world of skepticisim towards everything, frankly, that ain't my problem as the old saying goes.

But, apparently, that is too much to ask for some folks.

you know I always say challenge [the information in] the post: never the poster

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post #22328 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

The above is the most likely reason, I'd say, especially if one lives in a big city, near power transformers, etc. I do, so I have protection for my equipment. Clean power and stable voltage are a boon to electronic circuits. I've noticed that in my own system and in demonstrations at audio salons. But, this is a potential thread hijack-type topic, so let's tread carefully. None of us are in a position to say oddeofile didn't see what he saw, after all, and power issues seem the best likely explanation for the improvement.

My apologies for mentioning that I use one of these in this forum. It was not my intention to get this thread off topic with my comments about the heat generated by my Kuro and my other equipment including the PPP that I use with my Kuro. I'll keep my impressions on its effect to myself and leave it at that. Enough said.
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post #22329 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by progprog View Post

As turbe said, you can easily copy them to other inputs. I'm kind of surprised that Chad didn't do that for you....did he ask if you wanted them copied? It would have only taken him couple minutes.

For the record, Chad B did an awesome job. I'm really to blame, as I thought the settings on one input would be global. So, no, I didn't mention it to him. Plus, it didn't help that we were gabbing away the whole time.

Chad's offered to correct the issue next time he's in the area, but I've always wanted to snag ControlCAL out of support for an AVS Member's hard work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Did you post an Owner's Calibration Report (about yours from Chad)? Both htwaits and myself keep track of those..

Thanks, Turbe! It's been on my list of things to do, relaying my excellent experience with Chad, but, as you can see from the time it took me to reply, I've been a little busy.

Chad gave me the Calibration report in PDF format, but some of the graphs are broken up over two pages. I just need to get off my butt and chop-shop them together.
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post #22330 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

The above is the most likely reason, I'd say, especially if one lives in a big city, near power transformers, etc. I do, so I have protection for my equipment. Clean power and stable voltage are a boon to electronic circuits. I've noticed that in my own system and in demonstrations at audio salons. But, this is a potential thread hijack-type topic, so let's tread carefully. None of us are in a position to say oddeofile didn't see what he saw, after all, and power issues seem the best likely explanation for the improvement.

I'm guilty, to an extent, also. I use a Panamax 5300 in my rack.

There is certainly no harm in trying to get the best possible power to your equipment. And, surge/spike protection is something that everyone should consider as a minimum.

That said, I have no delusions that my audio/video is improved, let alone dramatically improved, by the use of this device. Protected to a reasonable extent - yes. But, improved audio and video - Nope. Sorry, it's just not going to happen.

Only the poorest designed and manufactured electronics will have trouble with nominal power fluctuations and/or noise. Our Kuro's are spec'd at 120V/60Hz. Acceptable levels of tolerance is +/- 10% for voltage. This means that input voltage between 108V and 132V will be handled by the the internal supply. Noise and THD, unless ridiculously excessive (i.e. you have a dirty generator, motor, etc.) will be filtered properly within the Kuro's ps.

Again, the reasons that I use my power device are to provide cleaner power and for protection. Most any well designed/built device of this type will work just fine. None of them, however, will provide measurable improvements to audio/video performance - regardless of what someone believes that they see or hear.

Unfortunately, the audio/video community is full of testimonials by the manufacturers of these devices and the dealers that sell them. Yet, there are too few real independent reviews from disinterested parties. This leaves people making their decisions without all the facts. Sad, but true.

I firmly believe that people should use some form filtration/conditioning/protection device for their HT/Audio equipment. It's a reasonably prudent investment - for protection.

/my contribution to this topic.

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
"...and all the science, I don't understand. It's just my job, five days a week."
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post #22331 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 09:56 AM
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no problem with discussing power conditioners as they relate to plasmas

I use Furman Reference series power conditioners and Monster AVS2000 voltage stabilizers

But I have never seen an improvement in PQ from them: but that is just me

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post #22332 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

but that is just me

No it's not

-steve
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post #22333 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 10:18 AM
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^^^

for good reasons too... the primary one being "it just don't work that way" (as you illustrated in your post)....

from another post...

"None of us are in a position to say oddeofile didn't see what he saw, after all, and power issues seem the best likely explanation for the improvement."

well... actually, we are in a position to do so, because "it just don't work that way"... steve took the time to explain one reason why... and if your power really was so "dirty" as to be out of spec, your plasma would be the least of your worries at that point... there's plenty more where that example came from... edit: bodosom outlined several others...

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and "i can see it" (similar to "i can hear it") ain't evidence... if it's so clear cut that "i can see it", then it should be no problem to follow simple testing methodology and prove it... there's any number of tools available that would measure what the user says he's seeing...

none of that means that i don't believe in appropriate "protection"... whole house and point-of-use here...

there's another explanation for his results that is MUCH more likely...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #22334 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 11:47 AM
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Video processors, that's another story. I've never run my 111 to the wall directly, so have no comparison there. But on LDs I did see an improvement using an EDGE vs. running the LD straight to the plasma. Not dramatic on content, but noticeable. Black bars, though, were much blacker. Haven't tried it with the Duo (replacing the EDGE), but I wouldn't be surprised if the results were similar.
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post #22335 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rhassle View Post

I find the improvements using PS Audio power filters, ..., amazing for picture and sound quality

It should be amazing for $1700...Ridiculous
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post #22336 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Fosse View Post

My apologies for mentioning that I use one of these in this forum. It was not my intention to get this thread off topic with my comments about the heat generated by my Kuro and my other equipment including the PPP that I use with my Kuro. I'll keep my impressions on its effect to myself and leave it at that. Enough said.

I wouldn't worry about it.
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post #22337 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 04:20 PM
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We should also remember that terms like "amazing," "dramatic" and the like are relative. An amazing difference to one may be subtle to someone else. Incremental to one is huge to another. And, hyperbole often invites comments.

Let's move on if we can.
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post #22338 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

We should also remember that terms like "amazing," "dramatic" and the like are relative. An amazing difference to one may be subtle to someone else. Incremental to one is huge to another. And, hyperbole often invites comments.

Let's move on if we can.

+1

Maybe we should talk about cables.....
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post #22339 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 04:39 PM
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I got a quickie , has anyone here upgraded an HDMI cable and noticed an improvement in AQ or PQ ?
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post #22340 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 04:39 PM
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And start a list... there has to be a list!

1. Power conditioners.
2. Power cables.
3. Audio interconnects.
4. Speaker cables.
5. Fuses.

Many more

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
"...and all the science, I don't understand. It's just my job, five days a week."
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post #22341 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

I got a quickie , has anyone here upgraded an HDMI cable and noticed an improvement in AQ or PQ ?

Ka-BOOM!!!!


my head just exploded

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
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post #22342 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 04:46 PM
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Ka-BOOM!!!!


my head just exploded

Is that a yes?
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post #22343 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 04:49 PM
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I hope you're happy.. now I have coffee coming out my nose and all down the front of me!

-steve
My HT Setup - updated 12/25/2012
"...and all the science, I don't understand. It's just my job, five days a week."
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post #22344 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 05:59 PM
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There's been a question brewing in the back of my mind for some time now, but I haven't had nerve to ask it before and now feels like just as good of time as any.

Since most readers of this thread are not the casual BB shopper, there's bound to be a few of you with insight on Fujitsu's quality compared to 9G Pio Elites. When I started developing interest in high-end plasmas, Fujitsu was revealing their Aviamo technology and I'm not sure it ever made it into mass-production. Can any of you comment on how far ahead Fujitsu latest plasma technology compares to Pioneer's latest? Who had the deeper blacks and motion handling? This isn't a specific question, but I'm curious if Pioneer was trying to live up to the Fujitsu-fan's expectations (when Fujitsu backed out of the plasma business) just as Panasonic is currently trying to live-up to the Pioneer-fan's standards.
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post #22345 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

I hope you're happy.. now I have coffee coming out my nose and all down the front of me!

Coffee? I take it you have a graveyard job eh?
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post #22346 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Lushious View Post

Chad gave me the Calibration report in PDF format, but some of the graphs are broken up over two pages. I just need to get off my butt and chop-shop them together.

Not for my list you don't. I'm only interested in your personal impressions.
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post #22347 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

And start a list... there has to be a list!

1. Power conditioners.
2. Power cables.
3. Audio interconnects.
4. Speaker cables.
5. Fuses.

Many more

... Dehumidifier
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post #22348 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 07:45 PM
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In response to what's been said about plasmas and heat and specifically the Kuro, I'd rather be warm with a sweet picture than cool with an LCD picture Same goes for energy consumption. I'm watching TV to enjoy it!

I'd also echo what's already been said: If you put your head a foot away, you feel the heat. However the wall behind feels fine and I don't detect any heat differential in my room but I have a 20x22 room
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post #22349 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esp2684 View Post

Can any of you comment on how far ahead Fujitsu latest plasma technology compares to Pioneer's latest?

Well when HTM () reviewed the last (as in almost unreleased) big one they claim to have measured 0.022 fL. 9G Kuros (about 1 year later) should be about 100x lower (better).
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post #22350 of 30501 Old 03-11-2010, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Well when HTM () reviewed the last (as in almost unreleased) big one they claim to have measured 0.022 fL. 9G Kuros (about 1 year later) should be about 100x lower (better).

Thanks for the response and pointing me to the HTM review! I've actually read the article before, but it slipped my mind as it's been a while (March 2008).

For the sake of completeness, here's the article bodosom referenced, and this thread covers the panel in question. (Couldn't find the black level measurement you mentioned, though )

The AVM III processor is what stood out in my mind to make Fujitsu superior to Pioneer, but the review gives the thumbs up to the Pioneers instead.
Sorry for detracting from the thread.
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