The Official Pioneer 9G Elite KURO Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 889 - AVS Forum
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post #26641 of 30650 Old 11-05-2011, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post

Kind of weird as ANSI is never measured with windows it is measured with a 4x4 checkerboard pattern, per SMPTE.

It's possible checkerboard patterns were used in whole or in part; still, the review says "windowed patterns," and being only a semi-technical person, I don't recall off the top of my head what a windowed pattern looks like compared to a checkerboard.

But the review's measured peak contrast ratio of 36,600:1 (36.6fL peak white/0.001fL video black) corresponds closely to Home Theater's full on/off reading of 37,000:1 on their sample.
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post #26642 of 30650 Old 11-05-2011, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post

lol. Have you had work done by Jeff?

You can read reports from a large number of Kuro owners in post number two using the link at the bottom of my post.

Enjoy.
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post #26643 of 30650 Old 11-05-2011, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

You can read reports from a large number of Kuro owners in post number two using the link at the bottom of my post.

Enjoy.

Already read a bunch of them. Very useful thread, thank you! Ill be sure to add mine when Jeff finishes

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post #26644 of 30650 Old 11-05-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post

Already read a bunch of them. Very useful thread, thank you! Ill be sure to add mine when Jeff finishes

I'll be watching for it.
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post #26645 of 30650 Old 11-05-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post


Already read a bunch of them. Very useful thread, thank you! Ill be sure to add mine when Jeff finishes

I'll also be looking for it. The calibration for my 151 that UMR did is there too as well as his previous calibration for my Sony A2000 Rear protection TV. Be sure to check that one out too regarding Jeff's expertise in getting that TV's color problem rectified after 2 other ISF people could not get it right.
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post #26646 of 30650 Old 11-05-2011, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Loewen View Post


Kind of weird as ANSI is never measured with windows it is measured with a 4x4 checkerboard pattern, per SMPTE.

The ANSI measurements were done with a 4x4 checkerboard pattern.
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post #26647 of 30650 Old 11-05-2011, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post


lol. Have you had work done by Jeff?

Nope...but have heard nothing but raves

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post #26648 of 30650 Old 11-05-2011, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I guess I just have to figure out what the heck I am gonna do. I guess I'll just see about getting the 70" Elite. My biggest issue is that when I view it in stores in THX mode with 120hz low engaged, I still see a little blurring. Everything else I am impressed with.

If you can wait awhile, Panasonic is supposedly coming out with a new lineup for 2012 that also includes larger sets than what they offer now.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1315304644


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Oddly enough, now the red indicator light on my Kuro just flashed red, and the panel won't power on at all. Whatever, in the garbage it goes.

With a cracked panel, it's no real surprise that is does that now. I would guess it probably made a loud buzzing noise when it first cracked and you tried to turn it on.


Also if you can find a 6020 Kuro on the cheap, you can swap out just one I/O circuit board from your 151 into a 6020, and then get all the Elite adjustments from a 6020, including ISF modes. Might be something to consider as a holdover set, if you can track down low cost 6020.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=e+lite

And if nothing else, you could probably at least take this I/O circuit board out of your 151, and sell it to someone with a 5020 or a 6020 that is looking for one of these boards, as they are now no longer available from Pioneer and are getting hard to find.
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post #26649 of 30650 Old 11-06-2011, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

If you can wait awhile, Panasonic is supposedly coming out with a new lineup for 2012 that also includes larger sets than what they offer now.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1315304644




With a cracked panel, it's no real surprise that is does that now. I would guess it probably made a loud buzzing noise when it first cracked and you tried to turn it on.


Also if you can find a 6020 Kuro on the cheap, you can swap out just one I/O circuit board from your 151 into a 6020, and then get all the Elite adjustments from a 6020, including ISF modes. Might be something to consider as a holdover set, if you can track down low cost 6020.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=e+lite

And if nothing else, you could probably at least take this I/O circuit board out of your 151, and sell it to someone with a 5020 or a 6020 that is looking for one of these boards, as they are now no longer available from Pioneer and are getting hard to find.


Thanks for the great advice, John.
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post #26650 of 30650 Old 11-06-2011, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The ANSI measurements were done with a 4x4 checkerboard pattern.

Ah, thank you.
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post #26651 of 30650 Old 11-06-2011, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The ANSI measurements were done with a 4x4 checkerboard pattern.

Amazing that an LCD measures higher than a kuro. I assume the brightness of LCD's are in favor of those measurements also?

In your viewing experience did the bit better black levels stand out on the elite compared to the kuro?

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post #26652 of 30650 Old 11-06-2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I went back to that review. D-Nice has an ANSI for the 9G 111FD of 13,833:1. He was using windowed patterns for this. The new Elite, then, has a higher ANSI contrast ratio (based on the VE shoot-out stats).

What was the ANSI for the Elite? I thought the Kuro still had the higher measured contrast ratio.
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post #26653 of 30650 Old 11-06-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

What was the ANSI for the Elite? I thought the Kuro still had the higher measured contrast ratio.

15,194:1 ANSI on the Elite.
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post #26654 of 30650 Old 11-07-2011, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post


Amazing that an LCD measures higher than a kuro. I assume the brightness of LCD's are in favor of those measurements also?

You are correct. However, please remember that the 101FD/500Ms are right there with the Sharp Elites black level. The ANSI on those panels would br higher than the 111FD.

Quote:


In your viewing experience did the bit better black levels stand out on the elite compared to the kuro?

Highly dependent on content. In most cases, no. Low APL scenes, yes.
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post #26655 of 30650 Old 11-07-2011, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

15,194:1 ANSI on the Elite.

I've read a few papers from Samsung, Sharp and they plainly state that ANSI contrast is difficult to measure on LD-LCD due to the variable black level across the screen. The sampling position and ansi pattern both have an enormous impact on the luminance measurement compared to that of PDP.

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post #26656 of 30650 Old 11-07-2011, 03:12 PM
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So what are you saying xrox? That depending on the position on the screen from the measurement that you'll get different ANSI readings? Either higher or lower?

When i saw the Elite i notice the corner edges of the screen were lighter on a full black image. There was a glow.

I never liked the way LCD's did black level. Even if its good. I know that sounds crazy but to me it looks like an artificial black. The kuro show that color as actual black. Can't really explain it.

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post #26657 of 30650 Old 11-07-2011, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

So what are you saying xrox? That depending on the position on the screen from the measurement that you'll get different ANSI readings? Either higher or lower?

In other words, when measuring black on an ANSI pattern, the distance between your measurement point and the white square as well as the size of the white square and number of white squares massively impacts the black level reading. In older LD-LCDs this difference can be 10+x. I get the feeling the Elite is much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

When i saw the Elite i notice the corner edges of the screen were lighter on a full black image. There was a glow.

Crap. First time I've heard this. Mura and non-uniformity grind my nerves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I never liked the way LCD's did black level. Even if its good. I know that sounds crazy but to me it looks like an artificial black. The kuro show that color as actual black. Can't really explain it.

Bluish holographic look with many non uniformities.

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post #26658 of 30650 Old 11-09-2011, 09:28 AM
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Saprano,

Below is a measurement of a backlit local dimming LED-LCD showing just how much CR changes by changing the checkerboard pattern. Essentially all the contrast gained from local dimming is lost when the pattern is greater than 4x2. This is due to the diffuser spreading light across the panel from the active LED zones.


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post #26659 of 30650 Old 11-10-2011, 06:55 AM
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Home Theater Mag has posted their review of the Sharp Elite, including a head to head comparison with a Kuro. Interesting stuff.

The reviewer claims that the Kuro still handles dark scenes better than the Elite, which I find a bit surprising given all of the talk of the black levels. But overall, he prefers the Elite.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/s...d-led-lcd-hdtv
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post #26660 of 30650 Old 11-10-2011, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Home Theater Mag has posted their review of the Sharp Elite, including a head to head comparison with a Kuro. Interesting stuff.

The reviewer claims that the Kuro still handles dark scenes better than the Elite, which I find a bit surprising given all of the talk of the black levels. But overall, he prefers the Elite.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/s...d-led-lcd-hdtv

Nice review by one of my favorite reviewers. Two things I noticed were he was using a 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 signal from the Oppo which would cause the high chroma roll off in the 141. That is known and well documented. Outputting and RGB 16-235 signal would have corrected that.

The other item I noticed was he actually saw the cyan problem on the Sharp Elite but failed to identify the problem (I highly doubt he measured that color at different stimuli levels) per the quote below:

"I noticed a subtle green shift in some dark images on the Pioneera shift I couldn't account for in the measurements. The dark Jotunheim scenes in Thor showed this consistently, while they were a more neutral gray on the Elite"

Thor has the, now standard, Orange/Teal color tones that Hollywood is so in love with and that green look should be there as it is a part of that stylized look.
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post #26661 of 30650 Old 11-10-2011, 04:02 PM
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be careful..lol....I just got banned from the Elite forum for being honest about that tv...it was nice to have met you at the shootout..I was the guy with the KURO DEMO disc Saturday night

and yes he failed to realize the KURO was delivering the correct picture..did you catch where he said off axis it was outperformed by a VIZIO panel....geezus...and I get kicked..I would never say that..but is written and published and the ELITE owners are bragging about that review as proof of it's superiority
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post #26662 of 30650 Old 11-10-2011, 05:32 PM
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be careful..lol....I just got banned from the Elite forum for being honest about that tv...it was nice to have met you at the shootout..I was the guy with the KURO DEMO disc Saturday night

and yes he failed to realize the KURO was delivering the correct picture..did you catch where he said off axis it was outperformed by a VIZIO panel....geezus...and I get kicked..I would never say that..but is written and published and the ELITE owners are bragging about that review as proof of it's superiority

Everyone wants the satisfaction of owning the best. Kinda odd how owning a TV can become so personal.
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post #26663 of 30650 Old 11-10-2011, 06:44 PM
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Ok guys I had Umr(Jeff Meier) over this past weekend to calibrate my Elite 111. After reading numerous reports of some great results after proper calibration I decided to go ahead and contact Jeff to dial in my set.
First let me say that I wasn't really sure how the picture could look any better from this display(boy, was I wrong). Jeff was extremely professional and informative. There were a few instances during our conversation that certainly made me feel like a "noob" of some sort
The picture on this set completely blows me away now. I'm primarily using ISF day as it has the most "pop". The set looks much sharper, cleaner, colors bolder, etc. Even on some HD sports broadcasts I no longer see jaggies on sports tickers, etc. Some of the better HD programming(NBC primetime shows, Discovery, etc) now have so much more depth that you find yourself drawn in to certain items on screen.
For some reason I was using Orbiter mode 2(not sure why) and Jeff pointed out that was a bad idea as you'll lose resolution. He pointed out some of the inconsistencies in the picture before calibration and then showed me the same points after he was done.
If anyone is considering ISF calibration, I would not hesitate to contact Jeff. You will not be disappointed.

BTW, I asked Jeff specifically what is it about these displays that makes them so good? He personally know the chief product engineer(for the Elites) at Pioneer and asked him that very question.
His answer: Attention to detail. More importantly, Pioneer took a $30,000+ Sony professional monitor and said how can we make a TV look like this!!
They used that monitor side-by-side during the Elite production to compare as the process took place. Interesting stuff indeed!

Again, big thanks to Jeff! Now I need to re-watch all my Blu's

Oh yeah, here's the data to back it all up

 

AccuCal Calibration Report.pdf 485.2119140625k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf AccuCal Calibration Report.pdf (485.2 KB, 25 views)

Denon AVR-X2000------>Def Tech PM1000's------>Def Tech PC2000------->Sub(TBD)
Pioneer Pro111FD viewed from 7'------>Picture mode, ISF Day(calibrated by umr)
Sony PS3

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post #26664 of 30650 Old 11-10-2011, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post

Ok guys I had Umr(Jeff Meier) over this past weekend to calibrate my Elite 111.

~

The picture on this set completely blows me away now.

Thanks for your report!

Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

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post #26665 of 30650 Old 11-10-2011, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post

Ok guys I had Umr(Jeff Meier) over this past weekend to calibrate my Elite 111. After reading numerous reports of some great results after proper calibration I decided to go ahead and contact Jeff to dial in my set.
First let me say that I wasn't really sure how the picture could look any better from this display(boy, was I wrong). Jeff was extremely professional and informative. There were a few instances during our conversation that certainly made me feel like a "noob" of some sort
The picture on this set completely blows me away now. I'm primarily using ISF day as it has the most "pop". The set looks much sharper, cleaner, colors bolder, etc. Even on some HD sports broadcasts I no longer see jaggies on sports tickers, etc. Some of the better HD programming(NBC primetime shows, Discovery, etc) now have so much more depth that you find yourself drawn in to certain items on screen.
For some reason I was using Orbiter mode 2(not sure why) and Jeff pointed out that was a bad idea as you'll lose resolution. He pointed out some of the inconsistencies in the picture before calibration and then showed me the same points after he was done.
If anyone is considering ISF calibration, I would not hesitate to contact Jeff. You will not be disappointed.

BTW, I asked Jeff specifically what is it about these displays that makes them so good? He personally know the chief product engineer(for the Elites) at Pioneer and asked him that very question.
His answer: Attention to detail. More importantly, Pioneer took a $30,000+ Sony professional monitor and said how can we make a TV look like this!!
They used that monitor side-by-side during the Elite production to compare as the process took place. Interesting stuff indeed!

Again, big thanks to Jeff! Now I need to re-watch all my Blu's

Oh yeah, here's the data to back it all up

Congrats on your calibration! Yes, Pure mode was modeled after a Sony mastering studio set.
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post #26666 of 30650 Old 11-11-2011, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

Everyone wants the satisfaction of owning the best. Kinda odd how owning a TV can become so personal.

Unfortunately the principle applies to a lot of other things, and speaks to something in human nature. For my money (literally), I know what I have in my 111, and that the whole point of the exercise was to buy something that would satisfy me. Whether the Elite is better or not is irrelevant, because I'm satisfied. I would be looking for that same thing if my 111 went down beyond repair and I ventured into the marketplace again.

I was at the Sunday shootout and though I thought the Elite was overall very good, I was more impressed by the color of the Samsung and LG plasmas. I might well buy the Samsung over the Elite for that reason.
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post #26667 of 30650 Old 11-11-2011, 05:41 AM
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i thought the ELITE was a good tv but i picked the Sammy and the Panny on Saturday night..My preference I guess ,will always be a plasma having owned a panny for several years , now my whole family and friends own them too..hope my 111 never goes down,i do baby it and use good surge protection, but if it did, I'd pass on the ELITE as off angle axis washout just bugs me no matter how high or low the price of an LCD is.

Anyone have any ideas why neither Pioneer nor Sharp, put their label on the ELITE.Kinda bait and switch in my opinion.it's as if they want you to think it's a Kuro because it is cosmetically the same look.Poor judgement on PIoneer's part to accept money to mislead consumers and Sharp seems like it doesn't want consumers to know it's one of their Quattro LCD's which is not a big seller.I would have preferred Sharp put it's own frame and cosmetic design on it instead of a KURO costume.
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post #26668 of 30650 Old 11-11-2011, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gene9p View Post

i thought the ELITE was a good tv but i picked the Sammy and the Panny on Saturday night..My preference I guess ,will always be a plasma having owned a panny for several years , now my whole family and friends own them too..hope my 111 never goes down,i do baby it and use good surge protection, but if it did, I'd pass on the ELITE as off angle axis washout just bugs me no matter how high or low the price of an LCD is.

Anyone have any ideas why neither Pioneer nor Sharp, put their label on the ELITE.Kinda bait and switch in my opinion.it's as if they want you to think it's a Kuro because it is cosmetically the same look.Poor judgement on PIoneer's part to accept money to mislead consumers and Sharp seems like it doesn't want consumers to know it's one of their Quattro LCD's which is not a big seller.I would have preferred Sharp put it's own frame and cosmetic design on it instead of a KURO costume.

IT's mentioned why they went with Elite moniker on Here Not sure if that a definitive answer, but I bought it.

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post #26669 of 30650 Old 11-11-2011, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I put it up on Craigslist to see if I get a couple hundred bucks for it. I have no idea what I am going to do. The only set worth considering for me is the Elite.

Did we ever get any ansi contrast numbers for the Kuros?

There is hope. I have a 600m and an elite and can assure you will NOT be disappointed with the new elite. I prefer the elite in every facet except maybe standard viewing.

PRO-60X5FD
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post #26670 of 30650 Old 11-11-2011, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gene9p View Post

i thought the ELITE was a good tv but i picked the Sammy and the Panny on Saturday night..My preference I guess ,will always be a plasma having owned a panny for several years , now my whole family and friends own them too..hope my 111 never goes down,i do baby it and use good surge protection, but if it did, I'd pass on the ELITE as off angle axis washout just bugs me no matter how high or low the price of an LCD is.

Anyone have any ideas why neither Pioneer nor Sharp, put their label on the ELITE.Kinda bait and switch in my opinion.it's as if they want you to think it's a Kuro because it is cosmetically the same look.Poor judgement on PIoneer's part to accept money to mislead consumers and Sharp seems like it doesn't want consumers to know it's one of their Quattro LCD's which is not a big seller.I would have preferred Sharp put it's own frame and cosmetic design on it instead of a KURO costume.

It was decided that Elite would be a distinct brand. I don't recall the specific reason, though I suppose it does represent a joint venture of sorts, even though Pioneer is partly owned by Sharp if I recall correctly (I believe I heard the Elite rep mention that).
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