The Official Pioneer 9G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 07:22 AM
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UMR- What damage have you seen? What do you suggest, then?
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post #302 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

While I do get reports of problems with it.

Of your "reported" problems. how many are user error compared to the actual process error? You cannot point the finger at the process if its user error.
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post #303 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hun View Post

Hey D-Nice any rough guess as to when you think you will be releasing the SM calibration info on the 5020/6020's? thanks agian

Everything is set for a Friday release.
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post #304 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Of your "reported" problems. how many are user error compared to the actual process error? You cannot point the finger at the process if its user error.

Not considering user errors when recommending something that can cause damage is borderline negligence in my book.
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post #305 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 07:31 AM
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Hey D,

Doing the break in with the thumbdrive and running it straight using your new settings, it's been a little past 3 days now. Anyway, I can' help but watch the break in sometimes and now I notice the different shades within the primary colors, almost all look the same now-no shade changing( I noticed it before) except the gray one and even that is slightly noticable. That gray is never full white and the transition to black is not black. At least not the way it looks like on my computer when I open the break in files(actually none of the colors look right, maybe it's the +20 color, huh?).Is it me and it's an optical illuision, watching a shade and then the transition to black screen for about 6 seconds and then to the next shade, is throwing me off.

I never seen somebody post about this before, but then again these are your new settings and haven't been out too long.

Thanks for all the help you have already given us D-KeepItReal
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post #306 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Not considering user errors when recommending something that can cause damage is borderline negligence in my book.

LMFAO, borderline negligent???? There are people who can't even turn on the panel. Is that negligence on Pioneer's part? Even if they have documented how to turn the power on???? Outlining how to use a product is all the provider can do. If the end user screws it up, it isn't the providers fault. The only thing the provider can do is provide end user customer service to assist with any questions they may have beforehand and attempt to troubleshoot and resolve any problems after the fact.

Using a pattern generator on a plasma for calibration purposes can cause IR. Is that negligent on the calibrator's part if they still use it (you in particular)? Would telling a potential customer that it is ok to calibrate their panel with 86 hours on it (knowing that these panels don't start to settle with the RGB shifts until after 150 hours) also be classified as negligent on your part? Is touting that calibration with a PR-670 is superior to anything out there negligent on your part as prior to you getting that particular piece of hardware you were using an i1proand you are not offering any free re-cals to your prior clients?

If the end user fails to follow directions or improperly sets up their equipment, it's negligent on their part, not the provider.
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post #307 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepItReal View Post

Hey D,

Doing the break in with the thumbdrive and running it straight using your new settings, it's been a little past 3 days now. Anyway, I can' help but watch the break in sometimes and now I notice the different shades within the primary colors, almost all look the same now-no shade changing( I noticed it before) except the gray one and even that is slightly noticable. That gray is never full white and the transition to black is not black. At least not the way it looks like on my computer when I open the break in files(actually none of the colors look right, maybe it's the +20 color, huh?).Is it me and it's an optical illuision, watching a shade and then the transition to black screen for about 6 seconds and then to the next shade, is throwing me off.

I never seen somebody post about this before, but then again these are your new settings and haven't been out too long.

Thanks for all the help you have already given us D-KeepItReal

Huh? Are you sure all of the slides are running?
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post #308 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Not considering user errors when recommending something that can cause damage is borderline negligence in my book.

And one more thing......how can 21 full screen color slide cause panel damage....specifically Kuro panel damage? And don't give me that "overdriving the panel" BS as displays in the Big Box stores are almost always pushing 60fL for months without failing.
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post #309 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:24 AM
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Is there supposed to be several seconds of black in between slides?

Just wondering as I am expecting my TV soon and want to know what to expect.

I will be using ThumbDrive slides.
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post #310 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:27 AM
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D-Nice and UMR.

I'm also in touch with a pretty knowledgeable person at Pioneer for our reviews, and he also told us to do at least 100-150 hours of break-in with any Pioneer Kuro to avoid any potential problems.

About the 150 hours mark for stability and calibration... He told me that any RGB shift should happen before 100 hours, so they recommend doing any ISF calibration, or any serious user calibration, after the 100 hours mark.
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post #311 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:28 AM
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thanks so much D-Nice appreciate the Time and Effort. Cant wait to tweak this baby.
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post #312 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corpfan1 View Post

Is there supposed to be several seconds of black in between slides?

Just wondering as I am expecting my TV soon and want to know what to expect.

I will be using ThumbDrive slides.

Yes.
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post #313 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEVESQUE View Post

D-Nice and UMR.

I'm also in touch with a pretty knowledgeable person at Pioneer for our reviews, and he also told us to do at least 100-150 hours of break-in with any Pioneer Kuro to avoid any potential problems.

About the 150 hours mark for stability and calibration... He told me that any RGB shift should happen before 100 hours, so they recommend doing any ISF calibration, or any serious user calibration, after the 100 hours mark.

Thanks for posting this info.
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post #314 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:31 AM
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I'd like to chime in on this: Lets remember this is a forum, and D-nice is mearly dispensing advice like many others. Advice is everywhere on the internet, and life in general. Nobody is forced to follow it, and nobody around here runs more disclaimers about his advice being recommended but not required than d-nice. He does this even though he doesn't have to, as he could simply state his opionion and be done with it. Break-in is worthwhile to many, many users, and the break in procedure combined with his settings got the best uncalibrated performance possible out of my display. Im sorry if this maybe takes some business away from calibrators, but looking at one of the most alturistic members of this forum as a competitor is a bit selfish.

It seems like everytime someone has a small issue with the break-in procedure it is used as a crutch to attack d-nice, perhaps out of jealousy.

I have nothing but respect for the calibrators here but people must remember that they make their living by turning relatively poor looking displays in to good ones. D-nice does almost as good a job free of charge. Fear-mongering to discredit a 'competitor' (either in a business sense or a forum knowledge sense) is a poor business practice. I agree that if data can be provided to prove break in is bad, then we can have a good debate. But jumping on an innocent comment by a poster who was having a small issue with is not the way to do it. His panel is undeniably 100 percent fine. Now lets move on.
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post #315 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Everything is set for a Friday release.

Thanks for all of the FREE info you provide us. It feels good not to have to worry about be being lied to just to make a buck.
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post #316 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:47 AM
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I'm curious about something D-Nice. Wouldn't an AVI or MPG of the whole color scale (if I using the term correctly) be even more effective than slides?

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post #317 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 08:53 AM
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Curious, D-Nice, have you found a way to check the hours of use in the SM? or know of A way I can check that? Thanks
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post #318 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 09:36 AM
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yes the hours of use info is still located in the service menu of the 9g. so you will need the pc connection with software or the pioneer factory service remote to access the SM and check it.

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #319 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Welcome to the club. I have talked to others who have ignored my advice and risked damaging their display with this silliness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Silliness? Don't start anything you cannot backup with factual data umr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I can think of many reasons.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I work on hundreds of displays a year some of which use this process others of which have not. I see no positive effect from it. While I do get reports of problems with it. If there is no obvious benefit and possible negatives. It seems silly to me to do it.

My hope is to put this issue to rest. I will Post what no one else has done, a name of a Pioneer Contact.

umr's concern about risk is potentially valid if the owner/user improperly sets up the procedure. However, his opinion that the procedure is silly and has no benefit is an opinion but incorrect based on the science. This has been convered prevously here in depth.

I spoke to Josh Kairoff this morning, many of the Professionals here will know who he is and what he did for Pioneer NA. I asked if I could use his name.

He does recommend a fast track procedure though he recommends an all white video signal from a inexpensive video generator for 100 hours. Since the HG/HGM (thumbdrive) mode use less energy, you would have run the process for approx. 1/3 more time. This will help with IR concerns over the life of the panel.

Is it silly? Is there no benefit? "Absolutely not" he said. He does it on his own Displays.

Of course, it is important to follow the instructions for these procedures for those using the thumbdrive or disc.

The recommended procedure is verified from Josh, who was in the Display Engineering Group for Pioneer NA - IMO a Contact who's recommendation is more than opinion.


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post #320 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 09:54 AM
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Will you be supplying the software we need for this SM Calibration D-Nice? I will also be going to the store to pick up the correct Cable needed to do this.
thanks
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post #321 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hun View Post

Will you be supplying the software we need for this SM Calibration D-Nice? I will also be going to the store to pick up the correct Cable needed to do this.
thanks

The software will be controlcal software provided by turbe (thank you for your software).

What is dead can never die. Long live my 151!
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post #322 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Huh? Are you sure all of the slides are running?


Yeah, pretty much. I just got the set and besides running Pan's Labrynth for about an hour (to make sure everything was OK in the presence of the shipper), I loaded up the break in thumbdrive. So, I don't know too much about the set. I did press the display button and it does say 1/20 all the way up to 20/20.

I noticed you said there is 21 still images, is that correct because I got 20?

Maybe I'll stop the slides and check the USB again.
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post #323 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

LMFAO, borderline negligent???? There are people who can't even turn on the panel. Is that negligence on Pioneer's part? Even if they have documented how to turn the power on???? Outlining how to use a product is all the provider can do. If the end user screws it up, it isn’t the providers fault. The only thing the provider can do is provide end user customer service to assist with any questions they may have beforehand and attempt to troubleshoot and resolve any problems after the fact.

Using a pattern generator on a plasma for calibration purposes can cause IR. Is that negligent on the calibrator’s part if they still use it (you in particular)? Would telling a potential customer that it is ok to calibrate their panel with 86 hours on it (knowing that these panels don’t start to settle with the RGB shifts until after 150 hours) also be classified as negligent on your part? Is touting that calibration with a PR-670 is superior to anything out there negligent on your part as prior to you getting that particular piece of hardware you were using an i1pro……and you are not offering any free re-cals to your prior clients?

If the end user fails to follow directions or improperly sets up their equipment, it’s negligent on their part, not the provider.

One thing I can say to back up Jeff, and his PR-670 is this. Jeff told me he bought the PR-670 because the new displays "especially the Kuros" go much darker and require an instrument than can measure better, especially in the lower IRE. The wonderfull thing about Jeff is, he does not get complacent. The better the tv's get the better the instrument needed to get the Extreme high level of quality he delivers every single time. You and Jeff both have your heart in what you do, and for that I thank you.
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post #324 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all of the FREE info you provide us.

You're welcome
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post #325 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totalownership View Post

I'm curious about something D-Nice. Wouldn't an AVI or MPG of the whole color scale (if I using the term correctly) be even more effective than slides?

More effective? Probably not. Could it be done and used? Absolutely.
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post #326 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hun View Post

Will you be supplying the software we need for this SM Calibration D-Nice? I will also be going to the store to pick up the correct Cable needed to do this.
thanks

I will be posting a link to the software along with instructions on how to use it. If your cPC/Laptop has a serial cable port, you will need a DB 9 serial cable (one end needs to be a female connector for the panel). If you do not have a serial port, you will need to get a Keyspan USB adaptor.


You can get the DB 9 serial cable from Monoprice for less than $2
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post #327 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 12:37 PM
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Anyone think of trying to get D-Nice and UMR in one room or ring for a few rounds? Maybe I could sell enough tickets to upgrade my 111 to a 151...

D-Nice you are the man, so I'm laying odds on you!
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post #328 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 12:45 PM
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anyone have some reviews of the 6020 that they could point me towards? My sister-in-law has an unopened 6020 (purchased via pioneer's employee program) that she's decided to sell via Craigslist (apparently too large for her room) and needs some reviews to attach to the ad. TIA (and **cough** pm me if you know of anyone looking for a good deal on a 6020 in socal).
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post #329 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 12:52 PM
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While I'm here, just a quick point re UMR. While many of you may not have been here long enough to know, UMR has been an incredible resource for this board for a long, long time. He dispensed FREE advice for years, including tweaking guides with specific recommended settings very similar to those now graciously provided by D-Nice.

D-Nice and UMR appear to differ on this point. So be it. But do us all a favor and hold off on the type of commentary that only serves to drive away another valuable resource for this board.
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post #330 of 10820 Old 08-13-2008, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbgrayson View Post

Anyone think of trying to get D-Nice and UMR in one room or ring for a few rounds? Maybe I could sell enough tickets to upgrade my 111 to a 151...

D-Nice you are the man, so I'm laying odds on you!

Not necessary. I have not personal issues with umr. At the end of the day I still admire and respect his contributions.
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