The Official Pioneer 9G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vd0 View Post

The review at UltimateAVmag says that the "Picture controls associated with AV modes, not inputs" and says that this means that if you adjust an AV mode for one input and apply that AV mode to another input, the control settings are the same (exception is Standard mode).

One thing I'd like to know regarding this is if you set an input to an AV mode, does that input persist in that AV mode when you change inputs and turn off/on the TV and go back to that input? Meaning, inputs always stay at the AV mode you last left them on?

Also, can each input be independently calibrated? It sounds like if you calibrate the Pure AV mode, it will be calibrated the same no matter which input gets set to Pure AV mode, but can you calibrate Pure AV on one input and then go calibrate Movie mode on another input without it affecting your Pure AV calibration on the other input?

With the ISFccc Interface (using ControlCAL) there are 3 independent memories Per Input (ISF Day, ISF Night and ISF Auto).

If you are DIY you should consider activating the ISFccc Interface (using ControlCAL of course) and if you hire a Pro, ask them to activate the ISFccc Interface (they can get ControlCAL if they don't already have it) or seek a Pro who has ControlCAL.


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post #452 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

If you are DIY you should consider activating the ISFccc Interface (using ControlCAL of course) and if you hire a Pro, ask them to activate the ISFccc Interface (they can get ControlCAL if they don't already have it) or seek a Pro who has ControlCAL.


Can ControlCAL be used with a Mac?
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post #453 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Can ControlCAL be used with a Mac?

I have users running it with Parallels.. of course bootcamp should work as well.

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post #454 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I have users running it with Parallels.. of course bootcamp should work as well.

Thanks. We don't have Parallels or Bootcamp on wife's MacBook Pro. Might just have to drag a PC desktop around.

So, by purchasing the ControlCAL program, activating the ISF-modes, and adjusting them per the recommended settings on the ControlCAL forum, it will provide an improvement over the D-Nice's standard "recommended" settings" even though I won't have a colorimeter?

I have a 151FD.
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post #455 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Thanks. We don't have Parallels or Bootcamp on wife's MacBook Pro. Might just have to drag a PC desktop around.

So, by purchasing the ControlCAL program, activating the ISF-modes, and adjusting them per the recommended settings on the ControlCAL forum, it will provide an improvement over the D-Nice's standard "recommended" settings" even though I won't have a colorimeter?

I have a 151FD.

Yep....especially on the low end.
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post #456 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Yep....especially on the low end.

Cool. I'm going to go ahead and order a Keyspan adapter, and start paying more attention on the ControlCAL forum
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post #457 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You can keep it on Advance.

Has anyone else noticed that Advanced messes up the ticker on ESPN and NFL network?
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post #458 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

With the ISFccc Interface (using ControlCAL) there are 3 independent memories Per Input (ISF Day, ISF Night and ISF Auto).

If you are DIY you should consider activating the ISFccc Interface (using ControlCAL of course) and if you hire a Pro, ask them to activate the ISFccc Interface (they can get ControlCAL if they don't already have it) or seek a Pro who has ControlCAL.


OK, thanks for the info. I am still on the fence as to whether I want to learn to DIY or go with a Pro. For DYI, I need to spend out for equipment, which is a one time cost, but then the advantage is I can calibrate whenever I want, but at the same time I think the experience that a Pro has should give better results than I would be able to do. The reason that I am asking about the non-ISF AV modes is that the Pro I am interested in does not calibrate the ISF modes.

Which brings me back to a question I had posed to D-Nice on the previous page that maybe you know the answer to: Why would ISF modes be able to be calibrated better than the Pure mode? Is it because they are the only modes with the 9 point gamma controls, or is there something else?
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post #459 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vd0 View Post

OK, thanks for the info. I am still on the fence as to whether I want to learn to DIY or go with a Pro. For DYI, I need to spend out for equipment, which is a one time cost, but then the advantage is I can calibrate whenever I want, but at the same time I think the experience that a Pro has should give better results than I would be able to do. The reason that I am asking about the non-ISF AV modes is that the Pro I am interested in does not calibrate the ISF modes.

Which brings me back to a question I had posed to D-Nice on the previous page that maybe you know the answer to: Why would ISF modes be able to be calibrated better than the Pure mode? Is it because they are the only modes with the 9 point gamma controls, or is there something else?

Yes, that is one reason. You may find this POST interesting as to why some Professionals do not use the Pioneer ISFccc Interface.

I suggest waiting for D-Nice to comment more about the results that can be achieved with the ISFccc Interface. He truly is independent and does not have an agenda.

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post #460 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vd0 View Post

Why would ISF modes be able to be calibrated better than the Pure mode? Is it because they are the only modes with the 9 point gamma controls, or is there something else?

The 9 point gamma controls play a part. However, it has more to do with how the Pioneer Engineers coded these modes. Unlike the 8G ISFccc profile, these modes have their own unique template (8G ISFccc modes were a carbon copy of Pure mode). The ISFccc modes have identical grayscale capabilities from 30-100IRE. Ditto on the color points. However, 10 and 20IRE have better performance within the ISFccc modes.

You can compare Pure against the ISF-Day mode RGB with the grayscale mappings below:

Pure Mode


ISF-Day
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post #461 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFul4d View Post

Has anyone else noticed that Advanced messes up the ticker on ESPN and NFL network?

Turn on the text optimizer.
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post #462 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:11 PM
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D nice, so you have tried controlcal and the ISF settings on your Pro1150?

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #463 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dssturbo1 View Post

D nice, so you have tried controlcal and the ISF settings on your Pro1150?

Yep. ISF-Day and Night are activated.
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post #464 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Turn on the text optimizer.

Are there any downsides to leaving text optimizer ON permanently with Film Mode set to Advance?

On another note: too bad there's no way to activate the 3DNR and FieldNR to only work with 480i sources.
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post #465 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Are there any downsides to leaving text optimizer ON permanently with Film Mode set to Advance?

Nope.
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post #466 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:44 PM
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Does ISFccc provide the same calibration controls on all TV sets? For example, Samsung 7 series plasma (not yet available) will support ISFccc. Does this mean the 9-point independent RGB gamma controls would be available on that set, or are the specific controls available with ISFccc left to the discretion of the manufacturer?
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post #467 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:49 PM
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D-Nice,

First, can you handle one more "thank you" from an appreciative forum member? THANK YOU!!!

Now, I have confirmed that the two break-in procedures from the thumbdrive, and DVD differ radically, at least to my untrained eyes.

The thumdrive files are, across the board, more intense than the DVD's. This, and they do not vary in shade near as much. The other difference is the DVD takes you to light gray between each color change.

Below are the first and last colors in the thumbdrive images in the red group (out of 5) to illustrate how much change there is.

I'm curious as to which program should be used.


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post #468 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:53 PM
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D-Nice or turbe,

By using the recommended settings, and switching to Power Save 1/2 Mode, what are you effectively doing to the picture? Just lowering peak light output? Will there be any crushing of whites or blacks?
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post #469 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:56 PM
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D-Nice, in your 111FD review you got a completely flat 2.2 gamma curve in Pure mode. I'm pretty sure in the ControlCal forum you recently noted that at 100% IRE your gamma was more like 2.1 ... I think you said it was due to your target peak white value of 40 fL.

In your review it looks like your calibrated peak white is 36.6 fL.

Anyway, I'm just asking how you managed to eventually wind up with a flat 2.2 gamma
without using the ISFccc 9-point gamma controls. Thanks.
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post #470 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid1 View Post

D-Nice,

First, can you handle one more "thank you" from an appreciative forum member? THANK YOU!!!

You're welcome.

Quote:


Now, I have confirmed that the two break-in procedures from the thumbdrive, and DVD differ radically, at least to my untrained eyes.

The thumdrive files are, across the board, more intense than the DVD's. This, and they do not vary in shade near as much. The other difference is the DVD takes you to light gray between each color change.

Below are the first and last colors in the thumbdrive images in the red group (out of 5) to illustrate how much change there is.

I'm curious as to which program should be used.



It doesn't matter which version you use. I did not see the difference in color as you did. Are you sure you had both the Home Media Gallery and DVD player on Sports mode?
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post #471 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

D-Nice or turbe,

By using the recommended settings, and switching to Power Save 1/2 Mode, what are you effectively doing to the picture? Just lowering peak light output? Will there be any crushing of whites or blacks?

Dimming the picture by roughtly 10fL, changing the gamma, and slightly modifying the color points.
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post #472 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rberger View Post

D-Nice, in your 111FD review you got a completely flat 2.2 gamma curve in Pure mode. I'm pretty sure in the ControlCal forum you recently noted that at 100% IRE your gamma was more like 2.1 ... I think you said it was due to your target peak white value of 40 fL.

In your review it looks like your calibrated peak white is 36.6 fL.

Anyway, I'm just asking how you managed to eventually wind up with a flat 2.2 gamma
without using the ISFccc 9-point gamma controls. Thanks.

You don't read gamma @ 100IRE

Also I was talking about ISF-Day mode...which I have since corrected with the 9 point gamma controls
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post #473 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You're welcome.

It doesn't matter which version you use. I did not see the difference in color as you did. Are you sure you had both the Home Media Gallery and DVD player on Sports mode?

Yes, I'm certain, and the differences are not subtle. I got both files from your links.
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post #474 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rberger View Post

Does ISFccc provide the same calibration controls on all TV sets? For example, Samsung 7 series plasma (not yet available) will support ISFccc. Does this mean the 9-point independent RGB gamma controls would be available on that set, or are the specific controls available with ISFccc left to the discretion of the manufacturer?

They can and will be different. I'm working with other Manufacturers..

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post #475 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The 9 point gamma controls play a part. However, it has more to do with how the Pioneer Engineers coded these modes. Unlike the 8G ISFccc profile, these modes have their own unique template (8G ISFccc modes were a carbon copy of Pure mode). The ISFccc modes have identical grayscale capabilities from 30-100IRE. Ditto on the color points. However, 10 and 20IRE have better performance within the ISFccc modes.

You can compare Pure against the ISF-Day mode RGB with the grayscale mappings below:

Pure Mode


ISF-Day

D-Nice, how do Pure and ISF-Day mode templates compare with respect to gamma?
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post #476 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You don't read gamma @ 100IRE

Also I was talking about ISF-Day mode...which I have since corrected with the 9 point gamma controls

Whoops! I meant to say you had a 2.1 gamma at 90 IRE. Great to hear you were able to subsequently correct it.

Great review results, thanks so much for publishing your experiences.
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post #477 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 03:29 PM
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Any conclusions on this?

As I have been running THUMBDRIVE for about 24 hours now.

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid1 View Post

D-Nice,

First, can you handle one more "thank you" from an appreciative forum member? THANK YOU!!!

Now, I have confirmed that the two break-in procedures from the thumbdrive, and DVD differ radically, at least to my untrained eyes.

The thumdrive files are, across the board, more intense than the DVD's. This, and they do not vary in shade near as much. The other difference is the DVD takes you to light gray between each color change.

Below are the first and last colors in the thumbdrive images in the red group (out of 5) to illustrate how much change there is.

I'm curious as to which program should be used.



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post #478 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The 9 point gamma controls play a part. However, it has more to do with how the Pioneer Engineers coded these modes. Unlike the 8G ISFccc profile, these modes have their own unique template (8G ISFccc modes were a carbon copy of Pure mode). The ISFccc modes have identical grayscale capabilities from 30-100IRE. Ditto on the color points. However, 10 and 20IRE have better performance within the ISFccc modes.

You can compare Pure against the ISF-Day mode RGB with the grayscale mappings below:

So it seems like if I did decide to try DIY calibration, then ISF, using ControlCAL to access it, would be the way to go. I checked out that guide you posted in the non Elite section, and it was informative but I was still uncertain about doing it. Then I noticed the info about the CalMAN software (at first I thought the screenshots in that guide were of the CalMAN software), and that it was easier to use because of its setup wizards and 3 skill levels modes.

I remember reading that you were able to calibrate the 111FD pretty quickly (I think it was about 30 minutes) and used that software. Like I said before, I am not sure which way I will go, but before I was leaning more towards having a pro do it, whereas now I am pretty much in the middle as I really start to learn more about DIY.

I'm going to lurk more on the ControlCAL forum and try to learn more - I think I have to get myself confident that I can do it and get good results since the cost of the equipment/software equal the cost of a good professional calibration. But then I would be able to always adjust whatever AV modes I wanted and multiple times as the set ages.
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post #479 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rberger View Post

D-Nice, how do Pure and ISF-Day mode templates compare with respect to gamma?

2.2 on both
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post #480 of 10825 Old 08-17-2008, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid1 View Post

Yes, I'm certain, and the differences are not subtle. I got both files from your links.

Interesting. I still say either method will yield the same results.
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