The Official Pioneer 9G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 10822 Old 09-16-2008, 06:20 PM
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This is a complete rookie question, but I am still not 100% clear on the whole break in thing. What are the main benefits of doing this? Are there any negative effects from using the break in? What happens if you don't use the break in and just watch tv like normal? Does the break in make the picture any better?
I get conflicting opinions on this daily and would really appreciate someone breaking it down for me that knows for sure.

Thank you
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post #1172 of 10822 Old 09-16-2008, 06:25 PM
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Also, is it worth it to get a 6020 professionally calibrated? D nice seems to know just about everything possible in respect to these tv's. Can someone with his skills and knowledge make the picture that much better with the limited controls in the tv? I fully understand calibrating the elites, but how much of a difference would it make on a 6020?Thanks again
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post #1173 of 10822 Old 09-16-2008, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank J Manrique View Post

have you noticed ANY signs of misconvergance or color separation happening with 151FD sets? I keep seeing what appears to be just that on my set...and while ago I even took my glasses off and got very close to the screen to see if indeed this sort of problem is occurring; I'll be damned...it is happening!
Most prominent seems to be HD programing from HDNet (was watching "Get Out!" where scantily clad girls are usually seen carousing in beaches at some tropical islands or drinking and dancing in nightclubs in various tropical locations ), but have noticed happening on other channels as well.
It could very well be programing itself that's the culprit (and actually saw far more additional "problems" than I care to mention! ) but wish to know for sure.

Frank, it IS the programming or more precisely a misregistration in the cameras. I've seen the same issue on some video-based HD programming. This is definitely an issue with the camera and not your display. If you think about it, it's impossible to have 'convergence issues' in a fixed pixel display.
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post #1174 of 10822 Old 09-16-2008, 09:23 PM
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Let me share some observations for those using powersave 2 and no break-in DVD with their elites. I plugged in D's non-break-in settings except I put black level at +1 and contrast at 39. This was based on DVE blu ray patterns. My source is a Denon 3800 blu ray player. My color initially was on +6 using DVE as we learned it should be. Now I put in D's color settings including color temp and cms, and they do look sig more natural. Saturation at +6 does seem to be a tad too much. I also compared the overall look of the color between powersave 2 and off, and I couldn't tell any difference. I also played with gamma 1 and gamma 2 settings, and although they're different, I can't really say which is more correct for my setup. I chose to leave it at gamma 2. So for those using their elites in powersave 2, I would still try D's reference color settings.

Curiously, even though he recommends decreasing color 3-4 clicks from what DVE tells you, when I was playing with a 150fd in the store a few months ago, DVE came up with a color of +6 which is also D's reference color for this model. Are the phosphors different between 8g and 9g?
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post #1175 of 10822 Old 09-16-2008, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Frank, it IS the programming or more precisely a misregistration in the cameras. I've seen the same issue on some video-based HD programming. This is definitely an issue with the camera and not your display. If you think about it, it's impossible to have 'convergence issues' in a fixed pixel display.

Yeah, I agree, and also believe the problem originates from HD cameras because I don't see it happen with ALL programing...and if you watched the Summer Olympic games you probably also noticed that besides obvious color differences that occurred between HD cameras while panning from one to another (more glaringly evident were the ones at the "Cube" where all the diving/swimming events took place) there was some misregistration happening and several momentary signal loss (blackout) as well, something which at the time just chucked to being a figment of my imagination.
Oh, by the way...I didn't have the 151FD KURO set when the Olympics took place; I watched them on a Toshiba 52XF550U LCD display device.

As for fixed pixel displays...yeah...for all I know about such technologies I realize that in reality it is not possible to have that sort of "problems" with plasma sets, but since my knowledge of plasma display technology is limited at best--and I purposely chose not to delve into studying the field at the onset because I wasn't that interested in smaller displays than what am really used to: front projection--the situation drove me to the point that I needed to pose the question those of you very savvy individuals who're well versed in such technology...

-THTS
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post #1176 of 10822 Old 09-16-2008, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CUZO! View Post

Also, is it worth it to get a 6020 professionally calibrated? D nice seems to know just about everything possible in respect to these tv's. Can someone with his skills and knowledge make the picture that much better with the limited controls in the tv? I fully understand calibrating the elites, but how much of a difference would it make on a 6020?Thanks again

From what I've been reading from reviews, the Elites come almost perfectly calibrated out of the box. I haven't seen a need to do it for mine.
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post #1177 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bouhhan View Post

bb employee is incorrect (no surprise there). plasmas get both. dead pixels appear black, and cannot be revived. stuck pixels stay one color and apparently (i have no experience with this) can sometimes be 'unstuck' by playing pixar films. personally i'd switch the tv out if you can and it bothers you.

bouhhan, thanks for your reply. I as well am not suprised with the sales persons lack of knowledge. Although the stuck/dead pixel is not black but rather a dark red I have not been able to fix it with Pixar animated movies and it's been 3 weeks since I first discovered it. I have decided not to exchange it since it is just one pixel and I am very happy with all other aspects of this set and I really don't notice it. I have decided to just to enjoy the great P/Q and will no longer focus or be commenting on this issue going forward.
Thanks,
mike
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post #1178 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 06:50 AM
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Anyone know how to tell if gamma is correct by using test patterns. If gamma is set incorrectly it will come out of black too quickly (be too bright in the darker areas) or come out too lsowly (crush some darker details)?

I thought of looking at the gray ramps that also have a black to white progression. Any ideas.

Also......how hard to see should the 2% above black bar be on the DVE HD basics pluge pattern. There is a 4% below black, a 2% above, and a 4% above. I know you want to lower brightness until the 2% is just visible, but should it be so faint you have to look REALLY hard to make out the shape of it, or visible but very dim.


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post #1179 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 07:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Anyone know how to tell if gamma is correct by using test patterns. If gamma is set incorrectly it will come out of black too quickly (be too bright in the darker areas) or come out too lsowly (crush some darker details)?

You need calibration equipement to measure gamma. It cannot be done by eye.

Quote:
Also......how hard to see should the 2% above black bar be on the DVE HD basics pluge pattern. There is a 4% below black, a 2% above, and a 4% above. I know you want to lower brightness until the 2% is just visible, but should it be so faint you have to look REALLY hard to make out the shape of it, or visible but very dim.

2% above black should barely be visible when your brightness is properly setup.


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post #1180 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 07:22 AM
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If anyone in Texas near by Dallas wants their tv's calibrated by D-Nice,please pm me.If we can get atleast 5 people,D-Nice said he will come to calibrate our TV's.

Pls.guys if we can get 4 more we can get our isf modes calibrated with D-nice.Pls. let me know asap.

Also for D-Nice, if you come to Dallas are you willing to travel Houston,Austin like areas within 300 miles of dallas also or strictly within areas of dallas and its suburbs.
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post #1181 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You need calibration equipement to measure gamma. It cannot be done by eye.

2% above black should barely be visible when your brightness is properly setup.

I notice that at a brightness of 0 and gamma 2 things look great in low light scenes as far as shadow detail. If I change gamma to 1 and leave brightness at 0 then then some shadow details are crushed but their is some "depth" that is added to the picture.....due to fake contrast from the crushing. Obviously at brightness 0 gamma 2 is preferable, but would setting it to gamma 1 and raising brightness to +2 or +3 give me added depth without sacrificing shadow detail?

Or is that line of thinking hopeless since you can't set gamma by eye as you said?

And thank you.

Edit: what is the basic differences between gamma 1 and 2 in terms of how quickly they come out of black. The hd guru said gamma 1 was better, but I take that with a HUGE boulder of salt since he also preferred CS 2.


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post #1182 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 09:33 AM
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Hi cuzo short answer is its worth using the break in disc theirs no harm in it and by nature you are breakin in the tv as you watch it, further read here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1067266
see my post gus738 and xrox for a real facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUZO! View Post

This is a complete rookie question, but I am still not 100% clear on the whole break in thing. What are the main benefits of doing this? Are there any negative effects from using the break in? What happens if you don't use the break in and just watch tv like normal? Does the break in make the picture any better?
I get conflicting opinions on this daily and would really appreciate someone breaking it down for me that knows for sure.
Thank you

Also cuzo the PDP-6020/5020 can be calibrated to a point, if both the non elite and an elite are calibrated to the max the elite WILL win over the non elite, so if you can get elite its better its a no brainer
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUZO! View Post

Also, is it worth it to get a 6020 professionally calibrated? D nice seems to know just about everything possible in respect to these tv's. Can someone with his skills and knowledge make the picture that much better with the limited controls in the tv? I fully understand calibrating the elites, but how much of a difference would it make on a 6020?Thanks again

a_ok2me this is false information the eilte are NOT calibrated, not from factory They are nice off the box but it wont hold a candle once properly calibrated, Ask D-nice if you want a solid better explained reason why.
in a sense if you said that you have 2 PRO-111 same hrs same usuage but one has been pro calibrated and one hasnt you will see the difference
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

From what I've been reading from reviews, the Elites come almost perfectly calibrated out of the box. I haven't seen a need to do it for mine.


Pioneer Elite PRO-111
Samsung 60PnF5300 af
panasonic px75u

XBL x117x831
PS4 gusx831
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post #1183 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CUZO! View Post

Also, is it worth it to get a 6020 professionally calibrated? D nice seems to know just about everything possible in respect to these tv's. Can someone with his skills and knowledge make the picture that much better with the limited controls in the tv? I fully understand calibrating the elites, but how much of a difference would it make on a 6020?Thanks again

Grayscale is the most critical element of the calibration and D-Nice has stated that the grayscale can be calibrated on the Non-Elite identical to results on the Elite. Most of the detail resolution in the PQ is carried in the grayscale so improving your sets ability display details. He's also published calibration results on non-elite units which indicate a significant improvement overall in PQ.

Primary color points are what cannot be adjusted on the non-elite so you may still end up with color that is a little more intense than is strictly accurate. I've had pro calibrations done before and I doubt very seriously the vast majority of consumers could see any difference in this accuracy, esp. without a reference point to compare to. Of course if it really bothers you could also adjust color intensity down in general on a setting but that would sacrifice some of the overall accuracy of calibration a bit.

IMO the biggest advantage of the elites is having many more options to calibrate and more modes and settings that can be tweaked to your liking.

I think it's important to note that many displays (projectors etc.) have not included modern CMS and this ablity to adjust color points over the years and have been professionally calibrated using available picture adjustments very much as the Non-elite offers now.

The simple fact is most displays cannot be "perfectly" calibrated and sacrifice a little something somewhere but then again the eye is not perfect. A good calibration gets your display to it's best case accuracy. That is usually enough to get major improvements over non calibrated settings.


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post #1184 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 05:31 PM
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I have a couple of questions regarding the room lighting sensor option in the menu. The three choices are off, mode 1 and mode 2. I don't recall reading much about this on this forum. Is it the general consensus that this should be set to off? If set to mode 1 or 2 does this only work when choosing the optimum a/v mode or is it working in all the other a/v modes? Could anybody shed some light on this.
Thanks,
Mike
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post #1185 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsfreak18 View Post

Try turning off the orbiter and see what that does.

Tried that and no help. Switched the inputs around so that the 360 uses the HDMI input that the cable box was using and vice versa. No help. Switch cable boxes and still no help. I don't know whats going on here. I'm going to run the cable box straight to the TV and bypass the receiver and see what that does.

Also, in dot mode I get a thin green line on the right side of the image as well as this "folded" view thing on the left. I'm guessing these cable boxes .... I'm going to try one other thing first. I'll switch cables between the 360 and the cable box and see if that helps. Could be the cable.

EDIT: No help there, switched cables and the effect is still there. I'll try direct in a few and will also try the tuner and see what that does

AT HAMMOND ROBOTICS WE'RE BRINGING THE FUTURE ... HOME
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post #1186 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 08:53 PM
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here is my take on it

1) 1 only messes with the contrast and brightness
2) 2 messes with the contrast and brightness and color if the color sensor is connected
3) when 1 or 2 are chosen all user modes are effected.
4) optimum is automatically set to 2 and can not be changed

general consensus is that it should be off

but this brings up another question - what about the setting in each user modes called "intelligence" that seems to basically do the same thing as the above?

how does "intelligence" interact with the above or in fact does it interact with the above - this i do not know.

anyone shine some light on this???

i do know for a fact that intelligence On in ISF mode makes the ISF mode act as if 1 above is chosen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

I have a couple of questions regarding the room lighting sensor option in the menu. The three choices are off, mode 1 and mode 2. I don't recall reading much about this on this forum. Is it the general consensus that this should be set to off? If set to mode 1 or 2 does this only work when choosing the optimum a/v mode or is it working in all the other a/v modes? Could anybody shed some light on this.
Thanks,
Mike

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post #1187 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 09:10 PM
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Just got my 111 - I'm wondering if it matters what DVD player to run the break in disc from (that is, using what inputs, hdmi vs. plain old yellow 'video' or component ). I have a PS3 but I would rather be able to play it while I wait for the 150 hours to be up!

Edit: While awaiting a reply I went ahead and hooked up a DVD play with the standard video yellow input, and I have set D-Nice's breakin settings as well. I see a top and bottom black space though when the DVD is running so I shut it off for now...... it doesn't seem right but I thought I would ask..... picture below:

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post #1188 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 10:01 PM
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yellow/video out/composite is ok.
check to see your dvd is set to output 16:9, or just set the aspect on the Pro111 to full or wide to asure all the pixels are being used.
the colors should change every ~26 seconds and runs for 44 minutes. set your dvd on repeat and check on it every so often to make sure its running smoothly.

congrats on the new Pro111, enjoy.

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #1189 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niemie View Post

Just got my 111 - I'm wondering if it matters what DVD player to run the break in disc from (that is, using what inputs, hdmi vs. plain old yellow 'video' or component ). I have a PS3 but I would rather be able to play it while I wait for the 150 hours to be up!

Edit: While awaiting a reply I went ahead and hooked up a DVD play with the standard video yellow input, and I have set D-Nice's breakin settings as well. I see a top and bottom black space though when the DVD is running so I shut it off for now...... it doesn't seem right but I thought I would ask..... picture below:


Correct, you should NOT have any bars while doing the break-in. The purpose of the break in is to evenly age the pixels.

...

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post #1190 of 10822 Old 09-17-2008, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niemie View Post

Just got my 111 - I'm wondering if it matters what DVD player to run the break in disc from (that is, using what inputs, hdmi vs. plain old yellow 'video' or component ). I have a PS3 but I would rather be able to play it while I wait for the 150 hours to be up!

Edit: While awaiting a reply I went ahead and hooked up a DVD play with the standard video yellow input, and I have set D-Nice's breakin settings as well. I see a top and bottom black space though when the DVD is running so I shut it off for now...... it doesn't seem right but I thought I would ask..... picture below:

Go into your DVD player's set up menu and configure the output for 16x9 television/screen shape.
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post #1191 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

here is my take on it

1) 1 only messes with the contrast and brightness
2) 2 messes with the contrast and brightness and color if the color sensor is connected
3) when 1 or 2 are chosen all user modes are effected.
4) optimum is automatically set to 2 and can not be changed

general consensus is that it should be off

but this brings up another question - what about the setting in each user modes called "intelligence" that seems to basically do the same thing as the above?

how does "intelligence" interact with the above or in fact does it interact with the above - this i do not know.

anyone shine some light on this???

i do know for a fact that intelligence On in ISF mode makes the ISF mode act as if 1 above is chosen.

Thanks ikeb for that explanation, that makes sense. The intelligent mode option is another setting that the manual is very vague on. The name itself (inteligent mode) implies that it also works as some kind of sensor. The manual says it compensates for either more effective (mode 1) or or more appropriate (mode 2) picture adjustments. I am not sure about this but I think I read some where that it analyses the incoming source picture and adjusts it. While we are on the subject of sensors. I beleive that my color sensor is defective and the reason I think this is that when in the optimum a/v mode there is a optimum performance option that you can scroll down to select which than shows a graphical picture/sound adjustment screen. With the light sensor menu option set to mode 2 when viewing that screen shouldn't it say "enable" next to words color sensor? Mine says disable and remains that way no matter which option I choose under light sensor in the menu. I would have thought that it should only read "disable" if off is chosen under light sensor in the menu and if mode 2 is chosen it should read "enable". Am I interpreting this correctly? I know a lot of people don't use the color sensor but was wondering if you have used it and experinced the same thing?
Thanks,
Mike
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post #1192 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 09:09 AM
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the light sensor settings in the option menu has nothing to do with Optimum mode - optimum mode senses whether or not the light sensor is plugged in. if yours is plugged in in the back and you still get disable then there is something wrong with the sensor or you did not push the connector all the way in.


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Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

Thanks ikeb for that explanation, that makes sense. The intelligent mode option is another setting that the manual is very vague on. The name itself (inteligent mode) implies that it also works as some kind of sensor. The manual says it compensates for either more effective (mode 1) or or more appropriate (mode 2) picture adjustments. I am not sure about this but I think I read some where that it analyses the incoming source picture and adjusts it. While we are on the subject of sensors. I beleive that my color sensor is defective and the reason I think this is that when in the optimum a/v mode there is a optimum performance option that you can scroll down to select which than shows a graphical picture/sound adjustment screen. With the light sensor menu option set to mode 2 when viewing that screen shouldn't it say "enable" next to words color sensor? Mine says disable and remains that way no matter which option I choose under light sensor in the menu. I would have thought that it should only read "disable" if off is chosen under light sensor in the menu and if mode 2 is chosen it should read "enable". Am I interpreting this correctly? I know a lot of people don't use the color sensor but was wondering if you have used it and experinced the same thing?
Thanks,
Mike

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post #1193 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

the light sensor settings in the option menu has nothing to do with Optimum mode - optimum mode senses whether or not the light sensor is plugged in. if yours is plugged in in the back and you still get disable then there is something wrong with the sensor or you did not push the connector all the way in.

Well than it looks like there's something wrong with it as I have unplugged it and replugged it in a number of times making sure each time it was all the way in. I am not to concerned about this because it seems that most people leave it off so apparently there's not a great benefit having it on and it detracts from sleek look of the set. I did report it to Pioneer however and someone is supposed to get back to me. Are most people not using the color sensor??
Thanks,
Mike
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post #1194 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 12:16 PM
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i thought color sensor was for optimum mode?

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Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

Well than it looks like there's something wrong with it as I have unplugged it and replugged it in a number of times making sure each time it was all the way in. I am not to concerned about this because it seems that most people leave it off so apparently there's not a great benefit having it on and it detracts from sleek look of the set. I did report it to Pioneer however and someone is supposed to get back to me. Are most people not using the color sensor??
Thanks,
Mike


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post #1195 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

the light sensor settings in the option menu has nothing to do with Optimum mode - optimum mode senses whether or not the light sensor is plugged in. if yours is plugged in in the back and you still get disable then there is something wrong with the sensor or you did not push the connector all the way in.

Either that or you just need to turn the TV off and on again. That's what I had to do.

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post #1196 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 01:30 PM
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Am I understanding it correctly that - if one is to follow the exact instructions for breaking in the set, one should run the DVD/thumbdrive files for 150 hours straight - with no other TV watching?

Man - that would be hard to do with a new toy...
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post #1197 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PackFan View Post
Am I understanding it correctly that - if one is to follow the exact instructions for breaking in the set, one should run the DVD/thumbdrive files for 150 hours straight - with no other TV watching?

Man - that would be hard to do with a new toy...
Well, if you have an Elite, the benefits would be (with my reference settings)....

 

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post #1198 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

i thought color sensor was for optimum mode?

There seems to be some confusion regarding the color sensor. I also thought that it only works with the optimum a/v mode and that is only if you select mode 2 in the menu under light sensor. It would not be working if you chose mode 1 or off and again this is only when using the optimum a/v mode. I beleive that the light sensor works on all the a/v modes as long as mode 1 is selected under the light sensor in the menu. If off is selected than the light sensor does not work in any of the a/v modes including optimum. This is what I think. Please someone correct me if I am wrong about this.
Thanks,
Mike
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post #1199 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

There seems to be some confusion regarding the color sensor. I also thought that it only works with the optimum a/v mode and that is only if you select mode 2 in the menu under light sensor. It would not be working if you chose mode 1 or off and again this is only when using the optimum a/v mode. I beleive that the light sensor works on all the a/v modes as long as mode 1 is selected under the light sensor in the menu. If off is selected than the light sensor does not work in any of the a/v modes including optimum. This is what I think. Please someone correct me if I am wrong about this.
Thanks,
Mike

The light sensor is automatically used with Optimum and ISF-Auto. Ditto with the color sensor.


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post #1200 of 10822 Old 09-18-2008, 02:41 PM
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isf-auto: i think in theory that is correct, but i had to turn on "intelligence" to get it to work. Otherwise there was absolutely no difference between my isf-night setting and auto even though i made sure the settings were identical. Turning on "intelligence" activated brightness and contrast compensation (light sensor)- no color compensation (color sensor)

i was hoping isf-auto would move the color, tint, sharpness around too and keep my 6500k gray scale - but it does not. Did i miss a setting?

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The light sensor is automatically used with Optimum and ISF-Auto. Ditto with the color sensor.

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