The Official Pioneer 9G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Jeff Mier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

UMR is active in these threads. You can contact him here:

Jeff Meier (UMR at AVS)
www.accucalhd.com
jeff@accucalhd.com

You can find others by checking the calibration reports that are linked at the bottom of my post. Not everyone does both audio and video. I think Gregg Loewen and Michael Chen at Lion Audio Video Consultants do. Michael goes by "Michael TLV" here at AVS.

Thanks guys! I sent Jeff an email today. Looks as if he'll be in the Chicago area in November, just in time for my B-Day!

Also, thanks to HarsimusJC for the PM on this information.

BTW: I have a 5020 & a 151 with zero buzz on the smaller unit and very little on the 151 (ear must be right at the screen to even hear it)

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post #152 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by serlenbeck View Post

Thanks guys! I sent Jeff an email today. Looks as if he'll be in the Chicago area in November, just in time for my B-Day!

I predict that you'll have a very nice birthday this year.
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post #153 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I predict that you'll have a very nice birthday this year.

Even without the calibration, I'd still have a nice B-day with the 5020 and 151.

What is dead can never die. Long live my 151!
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post #154 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Aetherhole View Post

It doesn't take an educated eye to decipher the differences. Just go with which settings look best to you. Switch back and forth and see which ones look better and go with it.

There's a number of people on this and related forums who have established their credibility (and you may be one of them!) to render a technically accurate assessment of the virtues of the KURO displays. Using this statement as a foundation for my response, I know that I "could switch back and forth to see which ones look better" but I would still not know which settings were/are technically accurate. For example, I could not tell you if the color was correct and we could go on from there...

There are many here that have the visual acuity and related qualities to state with 'educated eyes' the relative precision of the display. So if the settings listed for the post Break-in DVD are substituted for the reference settings for the non-DVD users and the overall picture quality/accuracy is technically superior, this is the information that we non-DVD break-in users would like to know.

Objectively we would know the degree of accuracy then subjectively, we could accept/reject the settings ("...switch back and forth...")knowing that we had a reasonably good base of info from which the data could be manipulated and this data would be a result of 'educated eyes' or whatever term one would choose to use (sounds poetic...).

Ref post #139 and #146 in this thread

-George
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post #155 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 01:49 PM
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First off, I'd like to *think that I am one of those, but never considered myself one, but you certainly made me feel good saying that I possibly am one of those!

I think that it's not necessarily having an educated eye more as it is a eye of preference. Most people will want settings like D-Nice's who has a reputation and will input them into their own televisions and leave it and be 100% happy. When I stated what I said, it was more along the lines of what looks best to you. What someone perceives as accurate may differ from another. Prime example is Ken Ross and Color Space 2. Is it wrong? No, not actually. It's a different preference of accuracy.

I think if one wants a 'technically accurate' setting, they're going to have to go a step further and either get a professional calibrator to calibrate it or get the tools to do it themselves.

Most people here will want a setting, like I said, that will look incredibly good with their set and not worry about it anymore, which I think both the non-break-in settings and the post-break-in settings provide. It is left up to the user to choose which one.

I don't know if I am explaining myself very well... major headaches tend to make it harder to do so! But, I definitely understand what you are saying, G.M.

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post #156 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Again, you can try them. However, I cannot guarantee that they will look the same as a panel that actually went thru the recommended break-in procedure.

Can we assume the same response for people who want to use Power Save mode 2?
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post #157 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 03:27 PM
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anyone have the instructions or software (and instructions) to get into the elite's service menu for the isf day and night calibration?
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post #158 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ikeb View Post

anyone have the instructions or software (and instructions) to get into the elite's service menu for the isf day and night calibration?

Click the link in my signature. ControlCAL is the only application that can access the ISFccc Interface in the 9G Elites (and 9G Models in other Regions). ControlCAL can also access the ISFccc Interface in the 8G's.

ControlCAL v1.41 RC1 has just been released!

... and to clarify... the ISFccc Interface is not accessed through the Service Menu.



Need to find a Professional Calibrator? Click Here to PM me with your Display & City

Calibrator List - Pioneer ISFccc Interface

Calibration Reports - Pioneer

 

ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

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post #159 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

Sorry D-nice i guess since i brought it up now coltsfreak and others want game av mode settings

Dahlsim where does pioneer state that you get side effect from game mode on?

I'm not sitting in front of the kuro at the moment but when you set the game control pref on/off, if you read the directions at the bottom of the screen on the 6020 it tells you that the off postion is to maximize graphic quality.

I'd presume if the video processing of the Kuro is being taxed by the content for whatever reason the display might sacrifice a bit it's processing quality to defer greater screen response time.

Keep in mind you may not see any visible difference, guess you'd have to test it on a game by game basis if it was a concern.

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any other disc that i should try? i heard of a rec709 or something?

Rec. 709 isn't a disk but is a HD standard with a color space, a mathmatical model for defining in this case high def colors.

The popular DIY calibration disks appear to be "Avia" and "Digital Video Essentials". There is also a free (High Def) calibration disk you can download here on AVS.

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post #160 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Yes, but that doesn't include gamma

I don't understand what you are asking here. Can you clarify this question?



Because you do not RGB controls in the user menu/ISFccc controls for each picture mode/input. On the non-Elites, you only have one global RGB control set that affects every A/V mode on the panel.



2.22

************************************************************ ******************************
"2.22"

Interesting.
************************************************************ ******************************
"I don't understand what you are asking here. Can you clarify this question?"

All i am trying to do here is point out (not to you) but to all the folks that are trying to learn about what really a good calibration is all about. And yes you need a good grayscale but there are many other aspects of a calibration that all must come together to make your Kuro and system really come together if you want to see what your video system can really do using your Kuro.
These are things that i really never understood until you and my ISF calibrator inspired my to start doing the calibrations myself. Matter of fact you even suggested i get a i1pro and I sure am happy i did. Bottom line here is I am seeing things I never know that my pro-150 could do. And I am not saying not to use a ISF calibrator and that I know more about calibration than a pro knows because i do not. However that being said the one thing I have that they do not is time and I can keep adjusting my calibrations to suit my tastes.
************************************************************ ******************************

"Because you do not RGB controls in the user menu/ISFccc controls for each picture mode/input. On the non-Elites, you only have one global RGB control set that affects every A/V mode on the panel."

This is something I did not know when I had a Kuro-5010 and I think this is very important for folks thinking of buying a non-pro or a pro.
Also i would add that the only setting that you can use with all four of your HDMI ports is "user" all the rest at least the one other setting that I would use (pure) you can only use once for your settings. And for me this is impotent because I use a specific calibration for each of my video inputs (BD,HD,SD players) there for i do not have to use a splitter.
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post #161 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

Click the link in my signature. ControlCAL is the only application that can access the ISFccc Interface in the 9G Elites (and 9G Models in other Regions). ControlCAL can also access the ISFccc Interface in the 8G's.

ControlCAL v1.41 RC1 has just been released!

... and to clarify... the ISFccc Interface is not accessed through the Service Menu.



I am still on track to do the ISFcc calibration and as a member of your site I will be asking you how to.
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post #162 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 10:27 PM
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sillysally you should re-do your quote in the post above as much of your message is included into his quote. At first I thought that the whole message came from D-nice and it confused the crap out of me
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post #163 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 11:37 PM
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does any one know if the room light sensor setting. should be on or off.. do most of u have it on... I have a 5020
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post #164 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 11:44 PM
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I think it's best if you don't spam every Pioneer thread to get your answer...

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post #165 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 11:49 PM
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Folks in the LA, SF Bay Area and Bellevue,

Pioneer and Magnolia AV are doing some events in a couple of weeks -- a Pioneer Tour.

Dates are:

Bellevue, WA: Aug 8 - 10
Santa Clara: Aug 15 - 17
Santa Monica: Aug 22 - 24


Have fun,

bashtonsj

still researching AVRs
Yahama, Denon, Pioneer, ... oh, my!
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post #166 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 11:50 PM
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A proper ISF calibration has nothing to do with tastes, and everything to do with bringing the display and the components into alignment with NTSC standards which are objective. Most people will find a properly calibrated display as lacking "Pop" as we have been conditioned to oversaturated and overly bright pictures. I am not dismissing the idea of getting a display so your eyes like it, that is great. But also understand that we must be aware of our own tendencies due to a lifetime of inaccurate pictures, and if we strive for accuracy, faithfullness to the directors intention, and the best shadow detail...color accuracy....and picture depth......then we must be prepared to explore what it is an accurate picture is and is not, and challenge even ou own instincts and sensibilities at FIRST.
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post #167 of 10825 Old 07-30-2008, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Eddy13 View Post

does any one know if the remote light sensor setting. should be on or off.. do most of u have it on... I have a 5020

Off.
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post #168 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 02:29 AM
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I am sorry to say that likes and dislikes have everything to do with a good calibration. For instants Gamma Target Exponent, some calibrators will tell you 2.2 is what you want others will say 2.5 for a plasma. Why is this. Also understand that these differences will give a good calibration that is within ISF standers. And this is just one example of how ISF calibrators will disagree. Just look at D-Nice settings and then look at Ken Ross's settings.Both of these men are very experienced in calibration.
Now lets talk about folks that know what a "good calibration" is. I went to a BB the other day and was in the TV show room. As I was telling the manger of the TV department i could not even look at there displays because they were very bad. Then he asked me to look at a Sony plasma that was ISF calibrated and as i told him I still could not look at it and pointed out way. His reply was the BD that was playing was a poor choice on there part.
So that being said why do you have to settle for less because you are told the grayscale is right on the numbers or what ever and the calibration is witin ISF standers. And yes these Kuros are very capable of giving a great deal of pop if they are setup right for what your using your Kuro for. In my case that is BD,HD,SD movies (film).
Also what you should understand is that a ISF calibrator is going to do one thing and that is to get the numbers in line with the ISF standards. To do much more than that is very hard and would take a lot more time therefor costing there costumer's a lot more money. And still in the end not get what the costumer really wants and also keeping within the NTSC standards. So when I say the one thing I have over a pro is time and understanding that I still must keep my settings within NTSC limits. Also I am saying that I would not even start to tell a ISF Pro what to do. And also understand in every calibration there is give and take.
btw My definition of pop is when whats on the screen seems to come out of the screen. Without white or black crush. And yes of course that means a lot of depth in the picture and yes you must have a very good gamut/gamma along with grayscale and many other factors.
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post #169 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

I predict that you'll have a very nice birthday this year.

Actually after talking with Jeff yesterday I found out that he'll be in my area this weekend! I will have 86 hours in on the Break In but he said that will be fine.

Also, saved me some cash as I was going to buy a new receiver and replace my old Denon 3805 due to HDMI being nonexsistent on the Denon.

Dude know's his stuff and is willing to discuss everything and answer your questions in a non-bias type way. wink wink

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post #170 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Aetherhole View Post

First off, I'd like to *think that I am one of those, but never considered myself one, but you certainly made me feel good saying that I possibly am one of those!

I think that it's not necessarily having an educated eye more as it is a eye of preference. Most people will want settings like D-Nice's who has a reputation and will input them into their own televisions and leave it and be 100% happy. When I stated what I said, it was more along the lines of what looks best to you. What someone perceives as accurate may differ from another. Prime example is Ken Ross and Color Space 2. Is it wrong? No, not actually. It's a different preference of accuracy.

I think if one wants a 'technically accurate' setting, they're going to have to go a step further and either get a professional calibrator to calibrate it or get the tools to do it themselves.

Most people here will want a setting, like I said, that will look incredibly good with their set and not worry about it anymore, which I think both the non-break-in settings and the post-break-in settings provide. It is left up to the user to choose which one.

I don't know if I am explaining myself very well... major headaches tend to make it harder to do so! But, I definitely understand what you are saying, G.M.

Appreciate your response.

If you used the post Break-in DVD settings on a display for which the Break-in DVD was not used the replies I was soliciting would read something similar to the following: 'Yes I tried these settings and they were fine..."; "I tried these settings but they did not work for me..."; "too much color..."; 'not enough contrast..."; etc. etc.

I was (am) looking for qualified, accurate opinions from others. As I mentioned before, I know that you or someone else could offer a more valid assessment of color accuracy than I could. The same may apply for skin tones, etc. Even though our perceptions are different there are standards that are generally accepted as to what constitutes a reasonably true red, green, blue, etc. (I have not read Ken Ross and Color Space 2).

My previous plasma was a Pio 5070. I initially used D-nice's reference settings and never changed them! They looked fine to me and anyone else who viewed the display never made a comment that something was 'off'. With about 200 hours on my current 151FD and D-nice's reference settings I am extremely pleased with the display. However, if feedback from others would potentially indicate that the post Break-in DVD settings may be better then I'm game for change.

I think we understand each other but have a different approach to the subject.

I'd still like to see a post from anyone who has tested these settings.

-G
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post #171 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I am sorry to say that likes and dislikes have everything to do with a good calibration. For instants Gamma Target Exponent, some calibrators will tell you 2.2 is what you want others will say 2.5 for a plasma. Why is this. Also understand that these differences will give a good calibration that is within ISF standers. And this is just one example of how ISF calibrators will disagree. Just look at D-Nice settings and then look at Ken Ross's settings.Both of these men are very experienced in calibration.
Now lets talk about folks that know what a "good calibration" is. I went to a BB the other day and was in the TV show room. As I was telling the manger of the TV department i could not even look at there displays because they were very bad. Then he asked me to look at a Sony plasma that was ISF calibrated and as i told him I still could not look at it and pointed out way. His reply was the BD that was playing was a poor choice on there part.
So that being said why do you have to settle for less because you are told the grayscale is right on the numbers or what ever and the calibration is witin ISF standers. And yes these Kuros are very capable of giving a great deal of pop if they are setup right for what your using your Kuro for. In my case that is BD,HD,SD movies (film).
Also what you should understand is that a ISF calibrator is going to do one thing and that is to get the numbers in line with the ISF standards. To do much more than that is very hard and would take a lot more time therefor costing there costumer's a lot more money. And still in the end not get what the costumer really wants and also keeping within the NTSC standards. So when I say the one thing I have over a pro is time and understanding that I still must keep my settings within NTSC limits. Also I am saying that I would not even start to tell a ISF Pro what to do. And also understand in every calibration there is give and take.
btw My definition of pop is when whats on the screen seems to come out of the screen. Without white or black crush. And yes of course that means a lot of depth in the picture and yes you must have a very good gamut/gamma along with grayscale and many other factors.

You make good points and I agree. I will set my set up using DVE blu ray basics so it is pleasing to my eye. My only point I guess is that an ISF calibrator "should" be attempting to get the picture to conform to an objective standard.
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post #172 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 09:22 AM
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Gamelover, it's also my understanding that a good calibrator will ask the user's preference and set the television settings accordingly to their taste, the gamma and brightness level are great examples of this. Depending on the person, they may set the brightness down a notch or up a notch and the gamma is the same, somewhere between 2.22 and 2.5 depending on the person again.

G.M. we do understand each other I am very interested to hear someone chime in who has tested the settings back and forth with a set that hasn't gone through the 'suggested' break-in process!

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post #173 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherhole View Post

Gamelover, it's also my understanding that a good calibrator will ask the user's preference and set the television settings accordingly to their taste, the gamma and brightness level are great examples of this. Depending on the person, they may set the brightness down a notch or up a notch and the gamma is the same, somewhere between 2.22 and 2.5 depending on the person again.

G.M. we do understand each other I am very interested to hear someone chime in who has tested the settings back and forth with a set that hasn't gone through the 'suggested' break-in process!

I'll share my approach so far.

I did not use the suggested break-in. Nothing against it,from reading posts it actually seems like quite a useful process for those with the patience to implement it, I just simply didn't want to go thru it and felt confident the PQ would be quite enjoyable for me given a basic level of care.

I exercised some effort to use mostly full screen content early on and do so in general. I also use the set's built-in screen save / anti-IR feature which is recommended for "time to time" use in the Kuro manual.

I used D-Nice reference settings as initially published (post break-in) and feel it produced an excellent picture with 1 shortcoming, skin tones were too red ON MY SET. More accurately there was too much red but it's most easily seen in light colored skin tones. I'm aware that calibrating by eye cannot match the level of precision done with calibration equipment however my approach is if something looks bad and I can fix it for my eyes, I fix it. Equipment can come into play later.

I researched use of the Basic Picture Settings such as we have on the Non-Elite before starting on my DIY adjustments:
My Calibration Plan *hopefully in order of increasing accuracy*

1) Eyeballing. This is where I am now on the Kuro. I have a pro calibrated television in the same room so that is my 1st reference point and I also feel a couple of my HD CRT's in the house have beautiful natural looking color so I also double check against those.

The only change I've made to D-Nice reference settings on MY set is to add a G5 Tint adjustment. I understand this may not be reccomended by some but frankly it looks great on Kuro, yielding beautiful skin tones. I'll verify it better later using the Blue Filters adjustments in step 2.

2) DIY Calibration Disks. Next up when I get time. I have now 3 of these, haven't got around to using them yet. I have DVE HD on Blu-ray, unopened, I have the Monster Calibration Disk (this is simplest and good for fun but has no filters and won't go that far) and I have the free downloadable calibration disk from here at AVS. May work with this later if I decide to buy equipment.

3) D-Nice Non-Elite calibration guide with ControlCal. - If "Mr. Kuro" comes thru with some good procedures I'll definitely give those a whirl if for no other reason than to assure myself of dialing in the best grayscale.

4) Paid Pro Calibration. - If enough info get's out so that some pro calibrators feel they can do a good job with thier calibration equipment, this would be an option. In the meantime the nice thing about the Non-elite IMO is that I don't feel this is required, although it would be a nice option.

Right now I'll be happy to keep that several hundred dollars in a safe place while enjoying the great PQ on the Kuro non-elite.

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post #174 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 11:55 AM
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Thank you, Dahlsim!

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post #175 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Turning Game Pref to "On" shuts of any and all processing that may cause game lag. This should produce very good PQ for games.

Holy crap.
I never even noticed this feature.
Is this an elite only feature or does the 6020/5020's have it also???
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post #176 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 12:04 PM
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Chad you need to explore your Kuros more, lol.

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post #177 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 12:17 PM
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What's a Kuro?

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
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post #178 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 12:19 PM
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Chad, it's only for the user setting Game. Otherwise, the Game Pref is not available on any other setting, like Pure, Optimum, etc.

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post #179 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherhole View Post

Thank you, Dahlsim!

NP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Holy crap.
I never even noticed this feature.
Is this an elite only feature or does the 6020/5020's have it also???

On non-elites as well. I commented in post #159 above.

Quote:


I'm not sitting in front of the kuro at the moment but when you set the game control pref on/off, if you read the directions at the bottom of the screen on the 6020 it tells you that the off postion is to maximize graphic quality.

I'd presume if the video processing of the Kuro is being taxed by the content for whatever reason the display might sacrifice a bit it's processing quality to defer greater screen response time.

Keep in mind you may not see any visible difference, guess you'd have to test it on a game by game basis if it was a concern.


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post #180 of 10825 Old 07-31-2008, 01:27 PM
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Eddy since you have a 5020 i would say stick with movie mode and if its not enough try performance or optimum and theirs no harm in leaving the room light sensor attached or the settings but the only thing that benefits from this is optimum mode. movie for most accurate at D63k at ear level to d65k game for no hardcoded settings and optimum for the "POP" colors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy13 View Post

does any one know if the room light sensor setting. should be on or off.. do most of u have it on... I have a 5020



thanks dahlsim i guess the only way to find out if its any diffrent from my TH-42PX75u panasonic 42" is to try it and see how it goes, although i wish m GH3would work right usualy i have to time it in adavance to hit the notes

as long as its not slower then my panasonic im fine.

I will also read the owners manuel and will report. also the rec 709 requires that i buy equipment? i just want something basic that i can understand for the time being, maybe buy a MIL and kill a watt readings and thats it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

I'm not sitting in front of the kuro at the moment but when you set the game control pref on/off, if you read the directions at the bottom of the screen on the 6020 it tells you that the off postion is to maximize graphic quality.

I'd presume if the video processing of the Kuro is being taxed by the content for whatever reason the display might sacrifice a bit it's processing quality to defer greater screen response time.

Keep in mind you may not see any visible difference, guess you'd have to test it on a game by game basis if it was a concern.



Rec. 709 isn't a disk but is a HD standard with a color space, a mathmatical model for defining in this case high def colors.

The popular DIY calibration disks appear to be "Avia" and "Digital Video Essentials". There is also a free (High Def) calibration disk you can download here on AVS.

LOL Aetherhole?

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Originally Posted by Aetherhole View Post

What's a Kuro?


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