Signature Elite 141 Owners Thread - Page 109 - AVS Forum
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post #3241 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

Are you saying that the HDMI cable (Monoprice) which comes with the 83 changes the defualt to 422 and the Audioquest and Monster cable se the default to 444?

That is bazar!

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. As long as the BD-83 and 141 are set to auto for HDMI color space.
Except the part about the cord being a monprice cable, but I will take your word for that.

btw, I am saying the HDMI cable I received from Oppo. Steve is going to see if his HDMI cable from Oppo does the same thing.
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post #3242 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ghook2020 View Post

I don't know why -- maybe it's the avatar -- but I have this mental image of you as Dr. Frankenstein in his laboratory. A new cable here, a notch down on the brightness there, one more contrast adjustment and.....It's alive!!

Can't wait to see your results. I dread the thought of having to snake a replacement for my 25' Monoprice HDMI cable from my a/v closet to the 141 though.

Keep up the good evil work Dr. 2S!

Hook

LOL, now that is funny.

But that is me.

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post #3243 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 12:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Except the part about the cord being a monprice cable, but I will take your word for that.

It was confirmed in the Oppo EAP thread itself that this is the case.

How are you measuring what's actually being sent to the Kuro, with a colorimeter? Or, perhaps the EDID data?
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post #3244 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

It was confirmed in the Oppo EAP thread itself that this is the case.

How are you measuring what's actually being sent to the Kuro, with a colorimeter? Or, perhaps the EDID data?

I1Pro, Calman.

If you are asking because of what I said about the monster cable. What I am talking about the i1pro really can't pick up on it. I guess that's why many pro calibrators will say, yes calibration is a art also.

If you are asking about 444/422 cs. The Kuro is telling me what is being sent. All you have to do is set both the Oppo and 141 to auto. Install cable, go to HDMI color space and click on cs 444. If the screen is distorted then your system is not defaulting to 444 cs.
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post #3245 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 02:53 AM
 
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Yes, sorry, asking regarding the CS.

I've a 5020FD here that I'll try that method on.

EDIT: Well, maybe it's something unique to the 141 but switching to 444 on the Oppo (using the provided power supply) with the 5020FD on Auto resulted in no untoward effects (distortion) as you saw, unless I don't know what to look for.
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post #3246 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 05:56 AM
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Well guys. I did what I should have done in the first place. I brought the 101 back to the store in exchange of a 141. After thinking about watching Quantum of Solace I realized I was just watching a TV. It is absolutely amazing how the extra 10" sucks you in to the movie experience. Hellboy 2 was off the charts. This was the missing element in this system for sure. The 101 is definitely a great TV but the 141 is a great movie screen.

Was able to get this TV mounted last night and I have started burning it in. I am very interested in the calibration side of things and have something to propose to those that use Spectros & Colorimeters.

Again, not trying to rock the boat here but we have done some testing at work with the new SPyder 3 product on our Eizo monitors and have brought an increase in gamut over calibrating with the Eye One. I always thought the Spyder 2 and original versions were absolute garbage but the Spyder 3 is creeping in on X-rite. I sell Eye One's and use them regularly and do understand the spectros are mainly used for printer/scanner/projector profiling. I also sell high end Spectros as well. My point here is everyone is so used to using an Eye One. i am very curious what a Spyder 3 will do in terms of calibrating Pio Elites. I would be ore than happy to post gamut profiles created with an Eye One and a Spyder 3 so people can see what we have seen. I own both and use the Spyder 3 exclusively for profiling my Eizo because it pulls more gamut and I feel I get an even better print match with it. The Spyder 3 improved upon the previous version by adding additional filters in order to pull this gamut. The Spyder 2 was always plagued with being unable to calibrated to D50(5000K) accurately. It wouls always red push. Did a better job with D65(6500K) but still we could never get a print match. Spydr 3 is a new breed. I don't sell this product by the way.

There is a lot of debate going on right now in the color management industry in regards to Spectros vs Colorimeters with regards to monitor calibration. I would like to hear if anyone has used a SPyder 3 on a 141 and what they think?
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post #3247 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

I1Pro, Calman.

If you are asking because of what I said about the monster cable. What I am talking about the i1pro really can't pick up on it. I guess that's why many pro calibrators will say, yes calibration is a art also.

If you are asking about 444/422 cs. The Kuro is telling me what is being sent. All you have to do is set both the Oppo and 141 to auto. Install cable, go to HDMI color space and click on cs 444. If the screen is distorted then your system is not defaulting to 444 cs.

Quote:


Yes that is exactly what I am saying. As long as the BD-83 and 141 are set to auto for HDMI color space.
Except the part about the cord being a monprice cable, but I will take your word for that.

btw, I am saying the HDMI cable I received from Oppo. Steve is going to see if his HDMI cable from Oppo does the same thing.

I've tried all my HDMI cables, 2 Monoprice (1-15' and 1-6'); my Audioquest (6') and the (Monoprice) cable that came with the -83...

They all deliver 444 to the 141 with both the 141 and the -83 set to auto. Verified by setting the -83 to auto and then cycling the 141 to 444 (perfect) and 422 (pink and distorted) and back to auto (perfect).

I have to conclude that Peter's cable has a problem (no pun ). It's doubtful the problem is with his -83 as other cables (regardless of make) work fine. This puzzles me, since I cannot figure out what could be defective in the cable, causing it to NOT sync the cs between both devices in auto. Gotta love HDMI... Arrrgggghhhh!!!!

As for difference in PQ between various cables. I'm a skeptic on this one - but, I am going to round up some more HDMI cables, some high-end and some more bargain brands and do a "test" later this week. As Peter said, there is some art invovled here, as this "test" will be my subjective opinion. Hopefully, my bias against this theory will not interfere with my judgement! I will even borrow an evil Monster cable and try that, too

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post #3248 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundstage28 View Post

Well guys. I did what I should have done in the first place. I brought the 101 back to the store in exchange of a 141. After thinking about watching Quantum of Solace I realized I was just watching a TV. It is absolutely amazing how the extra 10" sucks you in to the movie experience. Hellboy 2 was off the charts. This was the missing element in this system for sure. The 101 is definitely a great TV but the 141 is a great movie screen.

Was able to get this TV mounted last night and I have started burning it in. I am very interested in the calibration side of things and have something to propose to those that use Spectros & Colorimeters.

Again, not trying to rock the boat here but we have done some testing at work with the new SPyder 3 product on our Eizo monitors and have brought an increase in gamut over calibrating with the Eye One. I always thought the Spyder 2 and original versions were absolute garbage but the Spyder 3 is creeping in on X-rite. I sell Eye One's and use them regularly and do understand the spectros are mainly used for printer/scanner/projector profiling. I also sell high end Spectros as well. My point here is everyone is so used to using an Eye One. i am very curious what a Spyder 3 will do in terms of calibrating Pio Elites. I would be ore than happy to post gamut profiles created with an Eye One and a Spyder 3 so people can see what we have seen. I own both and use the Spyder 3 exclusively for profiling my Eizo because it pulls more gamut and I feel I get an even better print match with it. The Spyder 3 improved upon the previous version by adding additional filters in order to pull this gamut. The Spyder 2 was always plagued with being unable to calibrated to D50(5000K) accurately. It wouls always red push. Did a better job with D65(6500K) but still we could never get a print match. Spydr 3 is a new breed. I don't sell this product by the way.

There is a lot of debate going on right now in the color management industry in regards to Spectros vs Colorimeters with regards to monitor calibration. I would like to hear if anyone has used a SPyder 3 on a 141 and what they think?

I have a friend that has one for his panny plasma, we tried it on the elite 141 of mine and it will not work. It has the same problems that the one eye 2/lt have. It has a red push that can't be corrected because of the glass filter. The only two sensors that are suitable for the elite/non elite pioneer are the one eye pro and the chroma 5.
D-NICE has also stated this in a couple posts in the 9g cal thread.

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post #3249 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 07:45 AM
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That is good to know. Thanks for the response. Strange I am getting near perfect calibration on an Eizo Graphics monitor with the Spyder 3. Don't see the red push on the Eizo like we have with the previous Spyder models.

Guess I will just stick with my Eye One on the 141.
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post #3250 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 07:49 AM
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Which version of eye one are you using? Do you get better results with the Eye-One Display 2 or Eye-One Display LT (Lite) than you would by just plugging in D-Nice's settings through Control Cal?

Thank you.
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post #3251 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Bottom line is that using the Monster HD-1000 has now completed my tweaks and what I wanted out of PQ from my Oppo, for my 141 in source direct mode for HD films.

I will be watching more BDs tonight just to make sure my findings are correct.


Source direct i think is just marketing bs for pioneer to sell you their dvd players. 480i is the worst you can send to your panel. Don't you see a difference upconverting instead of pioneers poor tv upconversion?
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post #3252 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sithjedi333 View Post

Which version of eye one are you using? Do you get better results with the Eye-One Display 2 or Eye-One Display LT (Lite) than you would by just plugging in D-Nice's settings through Control Cal?

Thank you.

If you use a meter and calibrate your display, you will end up with a "calibrated" display.

If you plug in D-Nice's settings you will have a display that is somewhat close to what you'd have with a calibrated display - but, it will NOT be calibrated.

Which is "better" is subjective and you will find differing opinions about that.

Using D-Nice's settings is better than using the factory modes, however. Most everyone will agree with that. There are a few of us that believe the ultimate goal is a properly calibrated display.

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post #3253 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sithjedi333 View Post

Which version of eye one are you using? Do you get better results with the Eye-One Display 2 or Eye-One Display LT (Lite) than you would by just plugging in D-Nice's settings through Control Cal?

Thank you.

I have not had a chance to do any calibration yet as I swapped out a 101 for the 141 last night and had enough time to get the 141 mounted and the system set up. At any rate I work for a color management company in town so I just like fiddling with things like this. This is why I wanted to see how a Spyder 3 would do. I am going to use the Eye One Pro Spectro to do the calibration after burn in. I will try D-Nice settings as well. Seems peopel are pretty pleased with them.

Just for information purposes: the Eye One Display 2 and the Eye One display LT are exactly the same unit. The only differences are what features are unlocked with the bundled X-rite Eye One Match software. Display LT's can be upgraded to Eye One Display 2's at a price without sending in the unit for a hardware update. I know this because I sell them and use them. There is no physical hardware difference between the Display 2 & the LT.
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post #3254 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by madkaw View Post

I have a friend that has one for his panny plasma, we tried it on the elite 141 of mine and it will not work. It has the same problems that the one eye 2/lt have. It has a red push that can't be corrected because of the glass filter. The only two sensors that are suitable for the elite/non elite pioneer are the one eye pro and the chroma 5.
D-NICE has also stated this in a couple posts in the 9g cal thread.

So, should I avoid the Display LT/Display 2 sensor altogether for my 141? I just wrapped up 200+ hours of break-in, and was looking to buy the CalMan/ControlCal/Display 2 bundle over at Turbe's website this month (three hundred bucks is a price I can justify, post-141 purchase). I've used SpyderTV on my past displays but was unhappy with mixed results (excessive reds on my 55" Hitachi), so I won't even consider using that.

Is using the Display 2 sensor better than no "self-performed" calibration at all? Should I just use DVE Basics for now, and invest in a professional ISF calibration the next time someone is touring the area? FWIW, having the ControlCal bundle interests me as I would like to learn how to do "pro level" calibrations myself, and gosh knows the # of inputs on the 141 would keep me busy for days...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

Using D-Nice's settings is better than using the factory modes, however. Most everyone will agree with that. There are a few of us that believe the ultimate goal is a properly calibrated display.

Right now I am using PURE factory mode for watching HDTV (1080i), Blu-rays (1080p/24) and HD DVDs (also 1080p/24). All HDMI signals are routed thru Onkyo 805 and into Pio's HDMI #4 (Input 8). I have not even used DVE yet, and have just made a few minor adjustments to Contrast/Brightness/Color, and am using LOW color temp IIRC. Sharpness is set to -15 per recommendations on this thread. I've also turned off all NR in the Pro Setup menu, Color space = 2, Gamma = 2, others I can't remember at the moment as I'm not home. I know at this time I'm probably far from optimum settings for my viewing environment.

I believe all settings on this thread posted by others are using ISF Day or Night settings, which I obviously can't access without ControlCal. If I use the same values just under the PURE mode, will this get me decent results? Or did I miss a non-ISF setting that someone posted along the way?

Sorry for the questions, I'm still trying to learn as much as I can about the 141's capabilities and possible calibration settings. TIA for any suggestions!

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post #3255 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 01:57 PM
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Had my two weeks old 141FD calibrated last night by Dave Abrams (AVICal). I was quiet satisfied with D-Nice Pure mode settings but the ISF modes after the calibration are just awesome
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post #3256 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 01:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kris404 View Post

Had my two weeks old 141FD calibrated last night by Dave Abrams (AVICal). I was quiet satisfied with D-Nice Pure mode settings but the ISF modes after the calibration are just awesome

Congrats I have heard good things about him
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post #3257 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris404 View Post

Had my two weeks old 141FD calibrated last night by Dave Abrams (AVICal). I was quiet satisfied with D-Nice Pure mode settings but the ISF modes after the calibration are just awesome

Where can I find D-Nice's Pure mode settings for the 141?

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post #3258 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 03:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mak99 View Post

Where can I find D-Nice's Pure mode settings for the 141?

I think he did not have for 141 only 151
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post #3259 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris404 View Post

Had my two weeks old 141FD calibrated last night by Dave Abrams (AVICal). I was quiet satisfied with D-Nice Pure mode settings but the ISF modes after the calibration are just awesome

Thanks for your calibration report. I've included it in the flat panel (Post#2) list that's linked at the bottom of my post.
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post #3260 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mak99 View Post

Where can I find D-Nice's Pure mode settings for the 141?

D-Nice hasn't posted any settings for the 141. He only does settings for displays where he has done the break-in himself.
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post #3261 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROMAN O View Post

I think he did not have for 141 only 151

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

D-Nice hasn't posted any settings for hte 141. He only does settings for displays where he has done the break-in himself.

That what I thought, but was hoping that I missed one obscure posting out of the 1.42 million posts here on the Forums!

I started to read thru this thread some time ago, but know that the 141 post-break in settings aren't currently shown, at least in D-Nice's first few postings. When I do get ControlCal, I'll be able to use some of sillysally's settings (say that three times fast!) to see how they work for me. He did have some earlier settings used for a Pio 51FD BDP, same as I currently have.

In the meantime, does anyone have any thoughts of using:

* DVE HD Basics via Blu-ray for basic calibration?
* If using DVE, is the 141's Blue Mode recommended over the DVE's filter?
* Using an i1 Display LT/2 sensor/ControlCal/Calman package for a mid-level calibration vs no calibration at all?


Thanks!

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post #3262 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post


They all deliver 444 to the 141 with both the 141 and the -83 set to auto. Verified by setting the -83 to auto and then cycling the 141 to 444 (perfect) and 422 (pink and distorted) and back to auto (perfect).

I have to conclude that Peter's cable has a problem (no pun ). It's doubtful the problem is with his -83 as other cables (regardless of make) work fine. This puzzles me, since I cannot figure out what could be defective in the cable, causing it to NOT sync the cs between both devices in auto. Gotta love HDMI... Arrrgggghhhh!!!!

As for difference in PQ between various cables. I'm a skeptic on this one - but, I am going to round up some more HDMI cables, some high-end and some more bargain brands and do a "test" later this week. As Peter said, there is some art invovled here, as this "test" will be my subjective opinion. Hopefully, my bias against this theory will not interfere with my judgement! I will even borrow an evil Monster cable and try that, too

Thanks for clearing the Cable problem up. I agree 100% its a bad cable.
I have seen this problem before although its rare.

Don't forget, if you are buying a Monster HD1000 cable get it new form the bay. Then its is cheap.
And you are not supporting monster directly, so that should be ok with Vancouver.
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post #3263 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by soundstage28 View Post

That is good to know. Thanks for the response. Strange I am getting near perfect calibration on an Eizo Graphics monitor with the Spyder 3. Don't see the red push on the Eizo like we have with the previous Spyder models.

Guess I will just stick with my Eye One on the 141.

You didn't say if your Eye one is a I1pro. Big differences.
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post #3264 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mak99 View Post

When I do get ControlCal, I'll be able to use some of sillysally's settings (say that three times fast!) to see how they work for me. He did have some earlier settings used for a Pio 51FD BDP, same as I currently have.

Peter's (SillySally) settings are very nice and will serve you quite well, until you calibrate yourself. I'm using a modified version of his and anxiously awaiting the Oppo BDP-83 version (hint, Peter )

Quote:


In the meantime, does anyone have any thoughts of using:

* DVE HD Basics via Blu-ray for basic calibration?

It will be OK.

Quote:


* If using DVE, is the 141's Blue Mode recommended over the DVE's filter?

Don't use DVE for color. Search for a post by D-Nice explaining why not.
Quote:


* Using an i1 Display LT/2 sensor/ControlCal/Calman package for a mid-level calibration vs no calibration at all?

You'll be able to do a very nice calibration with that package. Get the i1PRO, though I'd say go for it!!!!! It will be MUCH better than no calibration and better than just copying settings. This is my plan when I get to 600+ hours.

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post #3265 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zues View Post

Source direct i think is just marketing bs for pioneer to sell you their dvd players. 480i is the worst you can send to your panel. Don't you see a difference upconverting instead of pioneers poor tv upconversion?

I am glad you asked.

As I have said I did very little comparisons with the BD-83 for SD Film DVD.

Last night I had a little time so I did some more comparisons for SD upconverstion. And even though I wouldn't say the Kuro has a "poor tv upconversion". What I will say is that using the BD-83 in 1080P@24 with deep color off is the best way to go. Yes the BD-83 does a very nice job of upconverting to 108P@24 for SD Films. And for me I like the fact that by using the BD-83 to upconvert, the Kuro 141 should display Dot by Dot and there for have a refresh rate of 72Hz.

So thanks for asking.
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post #3266 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Don't forget, if you are buying a Monster HD1000 cable get it new form the bay. Then its is cheap.

Cheap is such a relative term.

EBay: Monster mc 1000hd-2m 6.6-ft 1000hd ultra-high s...
Best Value: $119.99
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post #3267 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Cheap is such a relative term.

EBay: Monster mc 1000hd-2m 6.6-ft 1000hd ultra-high s...
Best Value: $119.99

Yes cheap is such a relative term.

I will leave you to ponder over the one I picked up on eBay for $2.48 + $21.99 S&H.

This chap in Hong Kong every now and then gets the top of the line Monster M1000HD 4' & 8' cables and starts the auctions at $0.99. Some lucky eBayers have won them for the initial $0.99 bid. Best Buy sells the 8' for $200. Indeed Monsters cables are such a ripoff at retail prices. But this is a nice cable though if you can have it really cheap.
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post #3268 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jam88 View Post

Yes cheap is such a relative term.

I will leave you to ponder over the one I picked up on eBay for $2.48 + $21.99 S&H.

This chap in Hong Kong every now and then gets the top of the line Monster M1000HD 4' & 8' cables and starts the auctions at $0.99. Some lucky eBayers have won them for the initial $0.99 bid. ... But this is a nice cable though if you can have it really cheap.

If you have ever spent any time in Hong Kong, or elsewhere in South East Asia, you know that they can provide all kinds of fancy goods that look just like the real thing. In the case of Monster cables, their copies might be just as good.
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post #3269 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by stevec325 View Post

Peter's (SillySally) settings are very nice and will serve you quite well, until you calibrate yourself.

Steve - Thanks!

Here's one link to a non-ISF setting, back from page 2 on this thread. I'll try these, along with some from Peter/SS, such as:

This one (non-ISF, I beleive?), and
this other one (ISF-Night, though).

QUESTION: What would happen if I input SS's ISF Night values into my Pure mode? Would it produce something similar, or are the ISF adjustments twice that of the non-ISF adjustments? (ie, 120-steps between min/max values as opposed to 60-steps - do I have that right?)

QUESTION #2: Can I assume that the 141 will produce the same PQ between inputs if I use the same Pure settings across all four HDMI inputs?

Quote:


It will be OK.

Well, using DVE would at least be a small baby step in the right direction...


Quote:


Don't use DVE for color. Search for a post by D-Nice explaining why not.

OK, so use the 141's "Blue Mode" and keep the DVE filter in the keepcase. If you find the link to D-Nice's post, I'd appreciate a PM to it. I believe your statement, it's just the engineer in me that wants to know "why?"! The more I learn, the better I understand!

Quote:


You'll be able to do a very nice calibration with that package. Get the i1PRO, though I'd say go for it!!!!! It will be MUCH better than no calibration and better than just copying settings. This is my plan when I get to 600+ hours.

If I could drop the $$ for the i1PRO and not miss it, you bet I would! But it's been an expensive few months lately, with the Hitachi-to-Pioneer 141 upgrade last month, and a "multi-141 valued" ring for the "GF-to-fiancee upgrade" months before that! So I'll likely get the Display 2 for now. I can always sell later and upgrade to the iPRO...

still one of my favorite bumper stickers of all time...

FREE TIBET! *
* with purchase of equal or lesser Tibet
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post #3270 of 5275 Old 06-02-2009, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

D-Nice hasn't posted any settings for the 141. He only does settings for displays where he has done the break-in himself.

Yes, you are right. I was using the settings for 151FD.
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