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post #721 of 5275 Old 09-13-2008, 09:44 PM
 
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I understand your frustration but keep in mind it can also have something to do with the environment where the unit is setup. I do hope it works out for you one way or another.
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post #722 of 5275 Old 09-13-2008, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteST View Post

You can count me as another 141 owner ... with a buzzer!
This afternoon, I returned my buzzing 151 (HFPM s/n) and picked up a 141 (HHPM s/n), with the hope that "hand picked components" and "better QC" would equate to minimal or no buzzing from my viewing distance of 12 ft.

I've been running Evangelos' break-in DVD for about 4 hours now. Guess what? The 141 buzzes even a little louder than my 151 did! When the break-in DVD is looping through the 5 gradients of white, I can actually hear the buzz from more than 25 ft away. I kid you not. I haven't tried watching regular content yet (cable, blu-ray). However, I'm sure the result will be the same as on my previous 151 (i.e. buzzing will be heard during scenes with light colors and when the sound volume is relatively low).

I'm really starting to believe (and accept) that excessive buzzing is present in all 151 and 141 panels. It's just that some people (like me) can pick up these high frequency sounds better than others. For reference, I also have a Panny TH-50PX50U plasma, which is over 3 years old, and I can only hear that panel buzz when my ear is directly behind the set.

Thus, I'd be willing to bet a case of beer that I can hear buzzing on anybody else's 151 or 141, who claims they cannot hear it except with their ear right next to the panel. Anyone close to the Richmond, VA area want to take me up on this friendly wager? I'm not talking about Milwaukee's Best either... only the good stuff!

Anyway, I don't think you can get any more recent than a HHPM unit (August build date). Not sure what I'll do at this point. However, if I do decide to take my chances again and swap out another set, I may just wait another 30 days or so before asking BB/Mag to order another 141. One thing is for certain, I've been very pleased with the service/support from the managers at BB/Mag. I know BB gets trashed a lot on these forums, but the guys I've been dealing with have been nothing but terrific.

Do you have a carpet in the room where the set is located or any type of room treatment? If you have hard wood floors or tile (marble, granite) it is probably amplifying the high frequency buzz. Try putting a rug between you and the seating location and see if it gets duller or lower in volume.
Another question, do you notice it with some sort of sound on?
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post #723 of 5275 Old 09-13-2008, 10:50 PM
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Thanks, Roman. In my case, I'm fairly certain it's not the environment. For over 3 years, my Panny TH-50PX50U sat exactly where the 151/141 is today. The Panny was/is completely silent.

Lam, I do have hardwood floors. However, I also have a huge wool rug that runs from the base of the entertainment center/plasma all the way to my sitting area. There are two windows (with curtains) on the right wall; while, the left wall is essentially bare with a couple hanging paintings. The key is, I could not hear any buzzing from my panny, with the exact same set-up and conditions.
I'm still running the break-in DVD. Therefore, I have not tried it with normal content. However, if my 141 is buzzing a little louder than my 151 did with the break-in DVD, then there's no reason to expect it to behave any differently than my 151 did with normal content.
And, yes, I noticed the buzzing on my previous 151 during scenes with low sound effects and/or low dialogue. This is even over the other ambient noises in my room (a/c vents on the floor, cooling fans from my two Middle Atlantic racks located below the plasma, fan from the refrigerator located about 20 ft behind my sitting area, etc...).

No worries. I'm not giving up yet!
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post #724 of 5275 Old 09-13-2008, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteST View Post

Thanks, Roman. In my case, I'm fairly certain it's not the environment. For over 3 years, my Panny TH-50PX50U sat exactly where the 151/141 is today. The Panny was/is completely silent.

Lam, I do have hardwood floors. However, I also have a huge wool rug that runs from the base of the entertainment center/plasma all the way to my sitting area. There are two windows (with curtains) on the right wall; while, the left wall is essentially bare with a couple hanging paintings. The key is, I could not hear any buzzing from my panny, with the exact same set-up and conditions.
I'm still running the break-in DVD. Therefore, I have not tried it with normal content. However, if my 141 is buzzing a little louder than my 151 did with the break-in DVD, then there's no reason to expect it to behave any differently than my 151 did with normal content.
And, yes, I noticed the buzzing on my previous 151 during scenes with low sound effects and/or low dialogue. This is even over the other ambient noises in my room (a/c vents on the floor, cooling fans from my two Middle Atlantic racks located below the plasma, fan from the refrigerator located about 20 ft behind my sitting area, etc...).

No worries. I'm not giving up yet!

dont give up!

Mine is in a room with nothing but hardwood floors (we are still waiting for our rugs to get done) and brick. I am ultra picky/sensitive and if my 141 had a buzz which was noticable while view from anything over 3 feet I would have returned it.
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post #725 of 5275 Old 09-13-2008, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I know Ken Ross Vashti...and trust me, you're no Ken Ross. That's probably a good thing!

Funny Ken...I remember those Texas Gov. Lloyd Bentsen vs. Dan Quayle 1988 VP Debates very well...
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post #726 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

dont give up!

Mine is in a room with nothing but hardwood floors (we are still waiting for our rugs to get done) and brick. I am ultra picky/sensitive and if my 141 had a buzz which was noticable while view from anything over 3 feet I would have returned it.

Thanks, Nolan. If memory serves, I think you also ran Evangelos' break-in DVD on your 141. Could you really not hear the buzz (beyond a distance of 3 ft from the panel) when the white images were being displayed? On mine, I can hear it clear across the room (over 25 ft from the panel).

Too bad you're so far up north (in that other country ), otherwise I'd gladly bring a case of your favorite alcoholic beverage with me to see/hear your monitor in person.

In all seriousness, at this point, I really just want to prove to myself that there are indeed 141 (or 151) panels out there that I would not be able to hear an excessive buzz. Most importantly, this would let me know for sure that continuing to pursue additional exchanges would not be completely futile and a big waste of time.
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post #727 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteST View Post

You can count me as another 141 owner ... with a buzzer!
This afternoon, I returned my buzzing 151 (HFPM s/n) and picked up a 141 (HHPM s/n), with the hope that "hand picked components" and "better QC" would equate to minimal or no buzzing from my viewing distance of 12 ft.

I've been running Evangelos' break-in DVD for about 4 hours now. Guess what? The 141 buzzes even a little louder than my 151 did! When the break-in DVD is looping through the 5 gradients of white, I can actually hear the buzz from more than 25 ft away. I kid you not. I haven't tried watching regular content yet (cable, blu-ray). However, I'm sure the result will be the same as on my previous 151 (i.e. buzzing will be heard during scenes with light colors and when the sound volume is relatively low).

I'm really starting to believe (and accept) that excessive buzzing is present in all 151 and 141 panels. It's just that some people (like me) can pick up these high frequency sounds better than others. For reference, I also have a Panny TH-50PX50U plasma, which is over 3 years old, and I can only hear that panel buzz when my ear is directly behind the set.

Thus, I'd be willing to bet a case of beer that I can hear buzzing on anybody else's 151 or 141, who claims they cannot hear it except with their ear right next to the panel. Anyone close to the Richmond, VA area want to take me up on this friendly wager? I'm not talking about Milwaukee's Best either... only the good stuff!

Pete, I'm sure you're right, they all buzz, all plasmas, all 141s & all 151s. There may be differences in magnitude, but I doubt there's any significant difference in the 'baseline buzz' between a 151 and 141.

The question I haven't seen addressed though between the 151s and 141s is that of blotching. You may be in a more unique position to address that. Did you see any difference in blotching between the 141 and 151?
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post #728 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteST View Post

Thus, I'd be willing to bet a case of beer that I can hear buzzing on anybody else's 151 or 141, who claims they cannot hear it except with their ear right next to the panel. Anyone close to the Richmond, VA area want to take me up on this friendly wager? I'm not talking about Milwaukee's Best either... only the good stuff!

I sent you a PM.

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post #729 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 08:31 AM
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I think I'm in PeteST's boat. At this point, I'm fully expecting to hear loud buzzing on the 141 when I receive it. I would really like to hear one that DOESN'T buzz at this point, just so I can prove to myself that they actually exist.

I'm really interested to see whether PeteST can get a taker and go hear one that doesn't actually buzz. I don't remember seeing any confirmed reports of people with loud buzzers getting silent replacements?
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post #730 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 08:59 AM
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It is suspicious that only those with "buzzers" get buzzer replacements. It makes me wonder if it might not be something common in the "setup" of those with the buzzing plasmas. I've had the Pro-FHD1, the 150 and now the 141 without a single "buzzer".
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post #731 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 09:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlarsen462 View Post

I'm really interested to see whether PeteST can get a taker and go hear one that doesn't actually buzz. I don't remember seeing any confirmed reports of people with loud buzzers getting silent replacements?

There have been reports of this in some of the threads, maybe someone can chime in who it happened to.
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post #732 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 09:01 AM
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It probably shows that you are less sensitive to that frequency and that they are more sensitive. Some people (chad, I think) have had replacements not buzz.

What is dead can never die. Long live my 151!
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post #733 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 09:17 AM
 
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Yea and I think progprog too.
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post #734 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 09:22 AM
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To chime in with my buzzing issue. I have had the display in two different rooms, both with carpet. My current location has a set of drapes behind it that are soft and always closed. I hope the next display is not as bad. I can deal with a little buzzing, but not when it is louder than the dialog.

I have found one major deficiency in the display as well. The PIP or Split picture mode does not allow you to simultaneously display any two sources of your choice.

If one source is HD over HDMI, then the other source must be Input 1, 2, or 3 which is RCA in, Component In, and VGA in (I think). If you change the main source to 1, 2, or 3, the the secondary source can be any other source.

This is crap because there is no tuner and if you have an HD set and you have the ability to do Split picture, then that means all your sources are HD. This means you truly can't split the screen with two PIP sources unless you have a dual output available at an RCA level and can put that to the input. I personally don't find that satisfactory for $7k.

Also, does anyone have insight as to what custom IP applications or interfaces you can make to work with the set in addition to the standard stuff? I am curious what can be done with this.
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post #735 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ROMAN O View Post

Yea and I think progprog too.

But if I remember correctly, progprog's first buzzer was extremely loud, even louder than the common buzz that can be heard 15+ ft. away. I believe his set was "additionally defective" for lack of a better term than the usual buzzer people complain about. I think he received a "normal buzzer" in replacement and either learned to deal with it or used Power Save Mode 2?

If I receive a 4th buzzer in the form of a 141, I'm not against considering that it may be a result of something in my environment/electrical system, but I have no idea what it would be. I still find it hard to believe people literally could not be capable of hearing the buzz (at least as I experience it), because I would have to expect larger-scale hearing damage (inability to hear a fairly wide range of higher frequencies) if that was the case.
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post #736 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by hoehne View Post

I have found one major deficiency in the display as well. The PIP or Split picture mode does not allow you to simultaneously display any two sources of your choice.

If one source is HD over HDMI, then the other source must be Input 1, 2, or 3 which is RCA in, Component In, and VGA in (I think). If you change the main source to 1, 2, or 3, the the secondary source can be any other source.

This is crap because there is no tuner and if you have an HD set and you have the ability to do Split picture, then that means all your sources are HD. This means you truly can't split the screen with two PIP sources unless you have a dual output available at an RCA level and can put that to the input.

I presume you are referring to a 141 for all of this?

It sounds like you can't mix 2 digital sources together for PIP - only one digital and one analog. This is a limitation of my current set as well - a 2006 Westinghouse LCD. Annoying for that monitor and even more so for a high-end Pioneer Elite...

C.
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post #737 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 09:56 AM
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Maybe the buzzing is due to a faulty ground fault, etc. The IDEAL situation would be to take a "buzzing" plasma over to a "non-buzzers" home and hook it up into their system.
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post #738 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlarsen462 View Post

But if I remember correctly, progprog's first buzzer was extremely loud, even louder than the common buzz that can be heard 15+ ft. away. I believe his set was "additionally defective" for lack of a better term than the usual buzzer people complain about. I think he received a "normal buzzer" in replacement and either learned to deal with it or used Power Save Mode 2?

If I receive a 4th buzzer in the form of a 141, I'm not against considering that it may be a result of something in my environment/electrical system, but I have no idea what it would be. I still find it hard to believe people literally could not be capable of hearing the buzz (at least as I experience it), because I would have to expect larger-scale hearing damage (inability to hear a fairly wide range of higher frequencies) if that was the case.

FYI, I live in St. Charles and could drop by and take a look at it if you get another buzzer.
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post #739 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Pete, I'm sure you're right, they all buzz, all plasmas, all 141s & all 151s. There may be differences in magnitude, but I doubt there's any significant difference in the 'baseline buzz' between a 151 and 141.

The question I haven't seen addressed though between the 151s and 141s is that of blotching. You may be in a more unique position to address that. Did you see any difference in blotching between the 141 and 151?

Hi Ken,
Neither my 151 or 141 had/has any other issues such as blotching/streaking or dead/stuck pixels. Both were perfect (and identical) in that regard.
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post #740 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 10:10 AM
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Jeez, UMR, I didn't realize you were so close after all this, I might have had you come out sooner. In fact, if you don't mind PM'ing me your website or a price sheet, I may retain your services for calibration once I finally get settled on a good panel so I don't have to wait months for Craig Rounds (who I've used in the past due to owning a Mitsu CRT which he is excellent with).

I'm just off of Highway's K & N in O'Fallon. I would definitely appreciate your input if I get another buzzer in the 141, as at that point I think I will take it up with Pioneer corporate (since I feel there's even more basis for complaint on a unit supposedly hand-picked to be the pinnacle of perfection). Ultimate's been incredibly good and understanding (I'm way past the 30-day period at this point) up to this point, but this is really becoming clear as Pioneer's problem rather than the vendor's.

I think the opinion of a respected calibrator would help during any discussions with Pioneer.

Of course, the hope is that the 141 won't buzz at all.

I just checked the outlet and ground. I've got between 119-120VAC (using a simple DVM) between the hot and neutral, and the hot and ground, so I don't think it's bad power or ground. I do not have a power conditioner but don't feel one is necessary.
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post #741 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlarsen462 View Post

Jeez, UMR, I didn't realize you were so close after all this, I might have had you come out sooner. In fact, if you don't mind PM'ing me your website or a price sheet, I may retain your services for calibration once I finally get settled on a good panel.

I'm just off of Highway's K & N in O'Fallon. I would definitely appreciate your input if I get another buzzer in the 141, as at that point I think I will take it up with Pioneer corporate (since I feel there's even more basis for complaint on a unit supposedly hand-picked to be the pinnacle of perfection). Ultimate's been incredibly good and understanding (I'm way past the 30-day period at this point) up to this point, but this is really becoming clear as Pioneer's problem rather than the vendor's.

I think the opinion of a respected calibrator would help during any discussions with Pioneer.

Of course, the hope is that the 141 won't buzz at all.

I just checked the outlet and ground. I've got between 119-120VAC (using a simple DVM) between the hot and neutral, and the hot and ground, so I don't think it's bad power or ground. I do not have a power conditioner but don't feel one is necessary.


I will be out of town until Sept. 27th, but if you want me to drop by after that just drop me a PM.
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post #742 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 10:14 AM
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No problem, I appreciate it. I don't think the 141 is supposed to be in until October anyway.
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post #743 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Pannus View Post

It is suspicious that only those with "buzzers" get buzzer replacements. It makes me wonder if it might not be something common in the "setup" of those with the buzzing plasmas. I've had the Pro-FHD1, the 150 and now the 141 without a single "buzzer".

I can say with absolute certainty that (at least for me) the set-up/environment has nothing to due with how I can hear the buzzing. Why? Because before I bought the 151 & 141, I had been using a Panny 50" plasma (TH-50PX50U) for over 3 years under the exact same set-up and operating conditions and could never hear any buzzing from that panel (except with my ear behind the panel).
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post #744 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteST View Post

I can say with absolute certainty that (at least for me) the set-up/environment has nothing to due with how I can hear the buzzing. Why? Because before I bought the 151 & 141, I had been using a Panny 50" plasma (TH-50PX50U) for over 3 years under the exact same set-up and operating conditions and could never hear any buzzing from that panel (except with my ear behind the panel).

Because the Panasonic was not sensitive to your environment does not mean that the Pioneer design is not. It is also true that it may not be an environmental problem at all. Until the root cause is determined all options remain.
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post #745 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 10:49 AM
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Because the Panasonic was not sensitive to your environment does not mean that the Pioneer design is not. It is also true that it may not be an environmental problem at all. Until the root cause is determined all options remain.

You are correct, of course. In the end, I may just have to accept that all Kuro's will buzz in my set-up/environment and either live with it or settle for another brand. I'm not settling for another brand! However, my set-up is certainly not atypical/unusual and is probably fairly similar to many others.
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post #746 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteST View Post

You are correct, of course. In the end, I may just have to accept that all Kuro's will buzz in my set-up/environment and either live with it or settle for another brand. I'm not settling for another brand! However, my set-up is certainly not atypical/unusual and is probably fairly similar to many others.

Contributing factors that come to my mind are...
  • Power problems
  • Ground problems
  • Mount problems
  • Damaged panels
  • Consumer hearing
  • Design flaw
  • Background noise level
  • Room acoustical properties

If rlarsen462 has another buzzer. I have some additional measurement tools that may help isolate the cause.
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post #747 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 11:06 AM
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For those with buzzers, I would also try removing a surge protector if you are using one, disconnect your sound system, etc.
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post #748 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 01:01 PM
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The 3 151's I've had in my home all buzzed on two different floors (different outlets obviously), with or without surge protection, and with or without anything else in the home running (A/C, etc.).

It really seems to be a function of the panel itself, but as I said, I'm still open to the possibility that there is an environmental peculiarity causing it. Otherwise the options are (A) I have extraordinarily bad luck or (B) They all buzz a significant amount (seemingly proven false by other's experiences).
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post #749 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 01:06 PM
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rlarsen462, where does the buzz emenate from on your displays? Have you tried placing a sound absorbing material directly behind the display to see if that helps reduce the noise? I'll have to pay special attention to listening for any buzz the next time I'm in the showroom at my local dealer. They have a very quiet and dark showroom for the Kuro.

"Plasma TV ... so called because in order to afford one, you're going to have to sell your blood." -- Ed Helms, The Daily Show.
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post #750 of 5275 Old 09-14-2008, 01:09 PM
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The problem is, it doesn't come from the back of the set, it clearly emanates directly from the glass itself. It seems mostly in the center and upper right and left corners. The buzz was no different when the set was sitting on the stand on carpet vs. wall mounted, so the immediate environment seems to have little effect.

One owner mentioned he actually could "move" and "reduce" the buzz on the panel by applying compressive pressure between the glass and back of the set, but it sounded way to risky to attempt, especially considering I'm still working on getting a replacement set.
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