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post #2281 of 5275 Old 01-26-2009, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncfoster View Post

... My main question is whether the Signature models (which, according to folklore are broken in for 100 hours at the factory) have their counter start at 0, 100, or maybe it varies... I'm going to assume 0, but I just wanted to check.

Yes, the Sigs are shipped with the time counter zeroed. I verified this when I got my 141.

"Plasma TV ... so called because in order to afford one, you're going to have to sell your blood." -- Ed Helms, The Daily Show.
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post #2282 of 5275 Old 01-26-2009, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

Well on the customers 101 I noticed WTW right away before I even entered the ISF mode.

I have never been un happy with any elite kuro I have had the pleasure of calibrating.

I figured with the Accupel the patterns meet a known standard and level that are fixed. This would help determine what interaction may or may not be going on between the 141/ 05.

Link to Cal report, page 1 is ISF night, page 2 is ISF day and page 3 is ISF befor cal.
101 report

Thanks for the link. But I think that link is for Roberts shoot out. And not a calibration report using a Kuro 101 and a BD-05/51 to calibrate the 101/141.

So are you reversing what you said about the white crush being fixed with firmware 1.21 for the BD05/51 and 101 ?

Yes I am sure you are right when you said "I figured with the Accupel the patterns meet a known standard and level that are fixed."

However after what has been said about the importance's and lack of, when presented with two calibrations, the latter being closer (but still room for improvement) in this case to NTSC 709 standards. The opinion by some seems to say who cares as long as I think there is no differences in PQ and I have been told by a ISF calibrator the same . And if that opinion is the correct opinion then why the need for standards. Be it NTSC, pal or your new Accupel and its standards? I must say I am a little lost with some of the opinions here.

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post #2283 of 5275 Old 01-26-2009, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Thanks for the link. But I think that link is for Roberts shoot out. And not a calibration report using a Kuro 101 and a BD-05/51 to calibrate the 101/141.

So are you reversing what you said about the white crush being fixed with firmware 1.21 for the BD05/51 and 101 ?

Yes I am sure you are right when you said "I figured with the Accupel the patterns meet a known standard and level that are fixed."

However after what has been said about the importance's and lack of, when presented with two calibrations, the latter being closer (but still room for improvement) in this case to NTSC 709 standards. The opinion by some seems to say who cares as long as I think there is no differences in PQ and I have been told by a ISF calibrator the same . And if that opinion is the correct opinion then why the need for standards. Be it NTSC, pal or your new Accupel and its standards? I must say I am a little lost with some of the opinions here.

Sorry my typo on the report the PDF is of the 101 not a 141 as indicated in the PDF.

No, not reversing my comment on the BDP-05/51 with the 101. But still not convinced on the 141. Saw the same results Ken saw on his 141 with Roberts 141. Maybe the 101 had newer firmware I did not dig any deeper.

Well according to some statements Delta E below 3 is not visible to most people. Some calibrators may stop once they reach that point and call it a day. I beleive if you are calibrating a display that has the accurace to take you even lower then you should strive for that point.

Then there is the deciding factor of the customer. After fully explaining what you did and why he may still want it tweaked a little his way. He is always right with his display.
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post #2284 of 5275 Old 01-26-2009, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

Ken does the PS3 have the option of setting HDMI colorspace to RGB 16-235?

Eddie, good question but I'm not sure. I'm out of town on business now, but I'll take a peek when I get home.
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post #2285 of 5275 Old 01-26-2009, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

No, not reversing my comment on the BDP-05/51 with the 101. But still not convinced on the 141. Saw the same results Ken saw on his 141 with Roberts 141. Maybe the 101 had newer firmware I did not dig any deeper.

Eddie, actually I've got a 151 which is obviously behaving just like the 141 in this regard. It's really interesting that any degree of DRE activation eliminates the WTW issue.

Peter, let me put it this way, let's say that the 151 is capable of a 98% accurate ISF calibration and the 141 is capable of a 99% accurate ISF. Do you really think your eye could ever pick that 1% up? IMO, no way no how. Let me take that one step further. The tolerances of these displays coming off the assembly line are probably greater than the difference in deltas for the best ISF calibration of the 141 vs the 151. Just a thought.

But probably most importantly, nobody has reported seeing a better picture in all this time and that in itself tells me something...especially when it comes from guys who do this for a living.

Again, two superb displays with different capabilities.
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post #2286 of 5275 Old 01-26-2009, 07:22 PM
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I hear ya Ken.

The biggest problem I have with what is being said by 151 owners is that there is a 1% differential. And maybe that is so, I for one can not prove otherwise but then again who can prove that. However there are more spects to consider.
First Range is 141, 2nd is 151

Quote:
BRIGHTNESS: 0~120 vs 0~60
COLOR: 0~120 vs 0~60

R-HIGH: 0~120 vs 0~60
G-HIGH: 0~120 vs 0~60
B-HIGH: 0~120 vs 0~60
R-LOW: 0~120 vs 0~60
G-LOW: 0~120 vs 0~60
B-LOW: 0~120 vs 0~60

But here is something to think about when doing a calibration and using the right standards for your display. If your display will except better settings, that is better in the area of a quality calibration being closer to the standards who can really say "well the owner of that display really can't appreciate the better calibration. So therefor why go the extra yard or mile to obtain a better calibration. The client will never know.
However for me I will go that extra mile. That's why I got the 141 to go that extra inch or mile.

And I am guessing that being a perfectionist counts for nothing these days. That standards or codes count for nothing or very little. As Capt. Jack said when asked why his boat (sorry ship) sailed without him, his reply was "they did whats best for them"

I think that line sums It all up.

Have a safe trip,

Peter.

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post #2287 of 5275 Old 01-26-2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Eddie, good question but I'm not sure. I'm out of town on business now, but I'll take a peek when I get home.

It does Ken. RGB Limited/Full
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post #2288 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 02:16 AM
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FYI....my EU 9G (may or may not bear similar tendencies) crushes white up near 253 and about 10 notches below if teh contrast is set to 40. When contrast is brought down to 32, then all white up to 253 is visible. The ideal contrast setting is sometimes lower than one thinks.


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post #2289 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

It does Ken. RGB Limited/Full


So does selecting one over the other show any effect on the WTW issue?
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post #2290 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

FYI....my EU 9G (may or may not bear similar tendencies) crushes white up near 253 and about 10 notches below if teh contrast is set to 40. When contrast is brought down to 32, then all white up to 253 is visible. The ideal contrast setting is sometimes lower than one thinks.

What Model? Are you using Pure (other standard AV Selection) and/or the ISFccc Interface?

EDIT: He replied to my PM:

Quote:


5090. It doesn't have Pure. Yes, I have Control Cal and the ISF modes. I will check tonite to see if the white crush occurs with ISF.


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me with your Display & City


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post #2291 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 10:28 AM
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What is "crush"?
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post #2292 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 11:17 AM
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To some degree, shouldn't you see less of the highest WTW steps as you raise contrast anyway.

Doesn't passing WTW just mean that you are able to get the set to display to produce a white that is above 235. And passing all WTW is displaying up to 255. For instance on my set I can see all the bars flashing (they go up to 253 and the background is 254....I am using the AVS rec 709 disc) when I set contrast to 32, but as I raise above that it becomes harder to see the very highest bars little by little as I continue to raise contrast. Even at contrast of 40 I can see well above 235, just not the top 8-10 bars or so. Also, this is from my seating position 8 feet away. If I got real close I can probably see a few more of the bars when contrast is at 40.

I believe this is normal behavior, and that a proper contrast setting will have all the shades of white the correct lumenenscence, so that they will stand out from one another...and you will see all the WTW bars. If contrast is set too high then some of the higher white values will start to bleed into the 254 background

Note: when I say that at a contrast of 32 I can see all the bars flashing, it's not like clear as day at 250-253. There you have to get up next to the set and look for subtle flashing. But again, this makes sense as the eye has (I believe) a limited ability to pick up those subtle changes in light output unless dark adaptation has occured. So White 253 should be very close to the flashing background of 254. So much so that you shouldn't be able to clearly see it from 8 feet away....you would have to move up close.


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post #2293 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

To some degree, shouldn't you see less of the highest WTW steps as you raise contrast anyway.

Doesn't passing WTW just mean that you are able to get the set to display to produce a white that is above 235. And passing all WTW is displaying up to 255. For instance on my set I can see all the bars flashing (they go up to 253 and the background is 254....I am using the AVS rec 709 disc) when I set contrast to 32, but as I raise above that it becomes harder to see the very highest bars little by little as I continue to raise contrast. Even at contrast of 40 I can see well above 235, just not the top 8-10 bars or so. Also, this is from my seating position 8 feet away. If I got real close I can probably see a few more of the bars when contrast is at 40.

I believe this is normal behavior, and that a proper contrast setting will have all the shades of white the correct lumenenscence, so that they will stand out from one another...and you will see all the WTW bars. If contrast is set too high then some of the higher white values will start to bleed into the 254 background

Note: when I say that at a contrast of 32 I can see all the bars flashing, it's not like clear as day at 250-253. There you have to get up next to the set and look for subtle flashing. But again, this makes sense as the eye has (I believe) a limited ability to pick up those subtle changes in light output unless dark adaptation has occured. So White 253 should be very close to the flashing background of 254. So much so that you shouldn't be able to clearly see it from 8 feet away....you would have to move up close.

He is the only problem, I see with your comparisons. Your display and calibration are probably not NTSC standardizes. So you more than likely use Black level voltage of IRE 0, as were the folks that live in North America use IRE of 7.5.

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post #2294 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 05:33 PM
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I was watching a U571 clip on the 141 at local BB/M today, supposedly a BR feed. During the underwater shots, I noticed conspicuous color banding. I see color banding frequently on my 4yr old 720P plasma, predominately during sky/underwater gradient shots. Does this artifact remain an issue with the current generation plasmas/141?
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post #2295 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by eddiscus View Post

So does selecting one over the other show any effect on the WTW issue?

From what I remember, there was still an issue with WTW. Once DRE Low was engaged, it resolved the issue. I will double check when I get a chance, as it was quite a while ago.

Note, with the signal generator, there was no issue from what I recall.
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post #2296 of 5275 Old 01-27-2009, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sk20 View Post

What is "crush"?

when its used in the term "black crush" it generally means the loss of detail in black/dark areas. For example you may see a person wearing a black leather jachet in a dark room, and if you see nothing but an all black jacket with no detail some would call that black crush as opposed to being able to see all the detail.
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post #2297 of 5275 Old 01-28-2009, 08:15 AM
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when its used in the term "black crush" it generally means the loss of detail in black/dark areas. For example you may see a person wearing a black leather jachet in a dark room, and if you see nothing but an all black jacket with no detail some would call that black crush as opposed to being able to see all the detail.

So it's basically clipping.
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post #2298 of 5275 Old 01-28-2009, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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So it's basically clipping.

yes...either form the source or the display's limitations.
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post #2299 of 5275 Old 01-31-2009, 09:02 PM
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Anyone using the Denon 2809? I'm about to upgrade from my current home theater system (a 27" RCA CRT with no stereo and a combo DVD/VHS) to the 141fd, Mythos Nine LCR, and Gem XL surrounds. Just ordered a Panasonic BD55, too.

Received some great advice in the Def Tech forum and thought I would see if any 141 owners were using the 2809. Thanks!
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post #2300 of 5275 Old 01-31-2009, 11:22 PM
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Hello members of this forum! Thank you for all the posts I have been reading the last couple of months. Helped me to pull the trigger on a complete A/V technology refresh, with the centerpiece being a 141FD.

Finally time to share some initial impressions...

1. Buzz

Sure has been a lot written on this topic, so I listened for it on day 1 after popping in the break-in disc. Followed D Nice's settings (including Sillysally's recommendation for lowering contrast). Thank you guys!

Yup, there is a buzz. If I stand in front of a white screen with no audio, it is there up to about 15 feet away. But the interesting thing to me is not the loudness, but the directionality. It is truly a sound beam that emanates from the center of the screen. Cannot here it all off axis. Cannot hear it whenever sound comes on. And because the set is higher on the wall (40" to the bottom), the sound beam goes over my head when sitting or laying down on the couch. So for me, buzz is not an issue.

2. Initial screen quality

Pixel perfect (thank goodness). On day 1 there was blotching and banding. By the end of day 7 of break-in, all that remained were perfectly smooth color fields. Proved to me that the 150 hours is worth the effort. Thanks to all of you for strongly recommending!

3. First viewing

Wall*e -- at night in Optimum mode with the light sensor on. Made my socks roll up and down. Wow.

Last set was purchased in early 2004 -- Panasonic TH-50X50U. Nice while it lasted, but this is obviously a huge leap forward in technology.

4. First ControlCal session

Downloaded the software to my netbook and ordered the USB adapter and cable from Turbe. Stole Sillysally's ISF Night settings for his Panasonic BD55 (I have an older BD30). Worked like a charm! Easy to use, very clear instructions. My only question to Turbe was why the setting for Screen Size wouldn't save, and he explained that it was a read-only field manipulated through the remote control (duh - should have been able to figure that out on my own).

First viewing of the ISF Night settings was The Bourne Identity. Blew my socks right off my feet. Perfect natural color. Incredible detail. Made an old favorite seem new again. Wow.

Thank you Turbe for developing ControlCal! ISF settings seem like a lot easier to use than the user level settings. And a big THANK YOU to Sillysally for sharing his settings. Someday, I would like to learn how to do my own calibrations, but first.....

5. Recommendations?

Can anyone point me to a ControlCal/141FD experienced calibrator who lives in or visits Minneapolis? (Yes, I know it is cold, that is why I waited till February to ask.... )

That's all for now. Thank you Vancouver for taking the lead and starting this forum. Am really glad to be able to join this very privileged group of Pioneer 141FD owners!

Regards,

Hook
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post #2301 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 12:02 AM
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Congrats on your new system.

Just a heads up.

1. Tha panny BD55/35 will even improve your viewing enjoyment.

2. If you want to wait. I more than likely will be getting the new Oppo BD-83, when it comes out. And I will be doing a full ISF night mode calibration for my 141 and the new Oppo BD player. Those new settings will be posted in this thread.

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post #2302 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

Congrats on your new system.

Just a heads up.

1. Tha panny BD55/35 will even improve your viewing enjoyment.

2. If you want to wait. I more than likely will be getting the new Oppo BD-83, when it comes out. And I will be doing a full ISF night mode calibration for my 141 and the new Oppo BD player. Those new settings will be posted in this thread.

Was just about to get the BD35 when I first heard the Oppo BD83 chatter. Sounds like it is worth the wait. At this point, my senses are so oversaturated by the new gear that it is hard to imagine any improvement. But, ok, I''m on-board with the Oppo plan! Thanks again for the settings.

New question: am sure it takes a lot of time and effort to get good at it, but can a newb actually learn how to calibrate from the documentation provided with Calman and the Gamma/Chroma/I1? Or is there a primer worth reading? Or is it one of those "you have to do it to learn it" things? I think ControlCal kind of fell into the latter category. Was a bit intimidating to read about, but really easy to use once I got it.

Thanks.

Hook
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post #2303 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 08:09 AM
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I know in the end it doesn't matter, but I am curious...

Several times I have read posts that indicate the 9g elites report 36-bit color being displayed while watching a Blu-Ray movie. Yet, mine always reports 24-bit. I know it doesn't make a difference, I am just wondering why my 141 is different. Maybe a setting or something? I have tried bypassing my receiver and still a no go.

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post #2304 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickff View Post

I know in the end it doesn't matter, but I am curious...

Several times I have read posts that indicate the 9g elites report 36-bit color being displayed while watching a Blu-Ray movie. Yet, mine always reports 24-bit. I know it doesn't make a difference, I am just wondering why my 141 is different. Maybe a setting or something? I have tried bypassing my receiver and still a no go.

Hi Nickff -

Do not think it is the 141.

Just tossed Baraka in my BD30. Connected HDMI through a Denon 3808ci.

The Display button says:

1080p
36 bit
Dot by Dot
ISF Night

Only setting I changed on the BD30 was to bitstream audio. Could it be the BD disc
itself?

Regards,

Hook
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post #2305 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickff View Post

I know in the end it doesn't matter, but I am curious...

Several times I have read posts that indicate the 9g elites report 36-bit color being displayed while watching a Blu-Ray movie. Yet, mine always reports 24-bit. I know it doesn't make a difference, I am just wondering why my 141 is different. Maybe a setting or something? I have tried bypassing my receiver and still a no go.

it will display 24 bit color if you are running your PS3 through a receiver with HDMI 1.1. If you byspass it and it still shows 24bit then something needs to change in your PS3.

There is no visable difference when watching a BD in 24 bit or 36bit color. The really is no BDs are 36 bit color.
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post #2306 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

it will display 24 bit color if you are running your PS3 through a receiver with HDMI 1.1. If you byspass it and it still shows 24bit then something needs to change in your PS3.

There is no visable difference when watching a BD in 24 bit or 36bit color. The really is no BDs are 36 bit color.

Sorry, should have listed my equipment. I have an s350 running through a 3808 to the 141.

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post #2307 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nickff View Post

Sorry, should have listed my equipment. I have an s350 running through a 3808 to the 141.

is the 3808 HDMI 1.1?

honestly I wouldnt worry about even trying to go down the road of figuring out why it says 36 bit rather then 24 bit. There is no difference.
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post #2308 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

is the 3808 HDMI 1.1?

honestly I wouldnt worry about even trying to go down the road of figuring out why it says 36 bit rather then 24 bit. There is no difference.

Yes, the 3808 is 1.3a.

You are right; it is not a big deal. I just don't want to find out later there is some setting that is causing this issue and affecting something else that is important.

Mathematics is the reason for the season.

 


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post #2309 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 03:05 PM
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My 141 also reports 36-bit for BD via my directly connected PS3 (using some unknown cracker jack box HDMI cable).

"Plasma TV ... so called because in order to afford one, you're going to have to sell your blood." -- Ed Helms, The Daily Show.
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post #2310 of 5275 Old 02-01-2009, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ghook2020 View Post

4. First ControlCal session

Downloaded the software to my netbook and ordered the USB adapter and cable from Turbe. Stole Sillysally's ISF Night settings for his Panasonic BD55 (I have an older BD30). Worked like a charm! Easy to use, very clear instructions. My only question to Turbe was why the setting for Screen Size wouldn't save, and he explained that it was a read-only field manipulated through the remote control (duh - should have been able to figure that out on my own).

First viewing of the ISF Night settings was The Bourne Identity. Blew my socks right off my feet. Perfect natural color. Incredible detail. Made an old favorite seem new again. Wow.

Thank you Turbe for developing ControlCal! ISF settings seem like a lot easier to use than the user level settings. And a big THANK YOU to Sillysally for sharing his settings. Someday, I would like to learn how to do my own calibrations, but first.....

5. Recommendations?

Can anyone point me to a ControlCal/141FD experienced calibrator who lives in or visits Minneapolis? (Yes, I know it is cold, that is why I waited till February to ask.... )

That's all for now. Thank you Vancouver for taking the lead and starting this forum. Am really glad to be able to join this very privileged group of Pioneer 141FD owners!

Regards,

Hook

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Thank you Turbe for developing ControlCal!

You are very welcome..

Check this LIST of Calibrators using ControlCAL.....

Need to find a Professional Calibrator?
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ControlCAL™
Designed by Calibrators for Calibrators™

No need to fumble through the Display's Menu with its Remote Control™

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