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post #1 of 31 Old 09-13-2008, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Advanced Plasma Development Center Develops System to Measure Actual Moving Picture Resolution in HDTVs

- Method enables precise quantitative analysis of moving picture resolution -


Las Vegas - The Advanced PDP Development Center Corporation or APDC, jointly established by Hitachi, Ltd., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic) and Pioneer Corporation, to promote the development of advanced engineering and manufacturing technologies for Plasma displays, today announced that it has developed a Moving Picture Resolution Measurement System. The system is based on the APDC Method announced on October 18, 2006. The system makes it possible to precisely measure moving picture resolution, In fact, currently, the claim of 1080p resolution in many HDTVs is based on the number of picture elements, or pixels, visible when a still picture is displayed on the screen, which is not the same as the HDTV's moving picture resolution.

The new system to measure moving picture resolution includes a digital camera, signal generator, a controller PC and image data processing software. In the process, (1) a specified test image is scrolled on the display to simulate a moving picture, (2) the movement of the camera is adjusted to the movement of the image so that it can be captured and (3) the image is then captured by the digital camera, analyzed and expressed mathematically to indicate the precise moving picture resolution.

Since the APDC measurement method simulates the way the human eye works, reconstructing the image reflected on the retina, the result of the quantitative analysis is very close to the way people see images.

With the increasing penetration of digital cameras and PCs, consumers are getting much more interested in the resolution of their televisions. Until now, the resolution of HDTV displays has been commonly expressed by the number of pixels in a still picture shown on the display. There were no clear criteria to measure the moving picture resolution of an HDTV. Since the major application for television is to show moving pictures, the newly developed measurement system will help consumers better understand the issue of resolution and what they can expect from their flat-panel or other HDTVs.

The new measuring system is applicable to any display including Plasma and LCD TVs. APDC plans to propose the use of this measurement system to all display and TV manufacturers as it will enable the improvement of performance of flat-panel TV displays through the objective and quantitative measurement of their moving picture resolution.

APDC plans to collaborate with measuring equipment manufacturers to launch the newly developed system in the market. Also, it plans to demonstrate the system in the APDC Suite (Otho Room, Palace Tower Emperors Level-4th floor, Caesars Palace Hotel Casino, Las Vegas, NV, USA) from January 8 to 10, 2007.
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post #2 of 31 Old 09-13-2008, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Panasonic : TH-50PX80U 720 lines or more

TH-50PZ80U 900 lines or more

TH-50pz800U 900 lines or more

TH-50PZ850U 900 lines or more

I found this information on panasonics website.From what I have read it leads me to believe that there is not much of a diffrence in the two resolutions. From what the article says 1080P only applies to a still photo.Maybe thats why I never noticed a big diffrence in picture quality when viewing the two types of tv's.I now feel its not worth paying the premium for 1080p just to get 180 lines or more .
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post #3 of 31 Old 09-13-2008, 11:26 PM
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Is this motion resolution you are talking about?

If so, in comparison, Sony's KDL-40V4000 1080p LCD only has 300 lines of motion resolution
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post #4 of 31 Old 09-14-2008, 12:00 AM
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I am curious to know at what refresh rate is motion resoultion measured at (eg 1080 60 p). I hope this becomes a standard very quickly since crt tubes display natively all motion pic res at ntsc std while lcd is horrible and plasma close to 1080 but at what speed. my self as a consumer would feel cheated if motion pic res as mentioned above post only 300 ( if true then 300 res display is all that is needed and if people want to display hi res images then cheaper hi res models could be produced). I wonder how this compares to computer monitors (crt,lcd ,plasma) are they different when they are driven with vid cards I hope someone can enlighten me more on motion pic res thx!!
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post #5 of 31 Old 09-14-2008, 12:11 AM
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Wow and I say this again Wow if true motion pic res is so low then we as avid vidphiles have been truly cheated out of moving from dino crt tech to oh!!! how wonderful lcd/plasma tech is also i find it very hard to belive that they can not have a current model of lcd or plasma with at least a moving pic res of 1080 60 p refresh rate todays micro chips are fast enough. also i have another qusestion whats the point of 120 hz lcd and high refresh plasma when motion pic res is so low ( nice to see my stationary image refreshed 120 times a sec like a painting wow nice i hope it doesnt blur heh heh heh!!!!)
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post #6 of 31 Old 09-14-2008, 01:26 AM
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http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10020262-1.html

Unfortunately, that judgment can vary. I rounded up a couple of CNET staffers, Matthew Moskovciak (a reviewer highly familiar with test patterns) and Matthew Panton (our summer Intern), explained the criteria for the test, and asked them to write down the results they got from looking at seven HDTVs' motion resolution, without telling me or one another. The calibrated TVs were placed side-by-side and set in the picture modes that gave the best motion resolution results. The table below summarizes our findings:

....................................Moscoviak............... Katzmaier............Panton
Pioneer 5020HD..................900........................1080..... ............1200
Samsung LN46A550.............500.........................300........ ...........300
Samsung LN52A650.............500.........................500........ ...........500
Sony 46Z4100....................600.........................500.. .................500
Sony 46W4100...................600.........................500... ................600
Vizio SV470XVT...................700........................700... ................800
Panasonic TH50PZ800U........600.........................600........... ........500

http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldi...50/index2.html

On the FPD Benchmark Blu-ray test disc, the moving monoscope pattern was tack sharp. Details were perfectly resolved out to 1080 lines, and characters looked sharp, even in motion. In fact, all the motion clips looked much better than on almost any LCD TV, and that includes the high-end models with a 120Hz refresh rate.





http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/

Sony KDL40V3000 250 lines of motion resolution
Sony KDL40V4000 250-300 lines of motion resolution
Samsung LE32A656 (European) 250 lines of motion resolution
Panasonic TH50PZ80B (European) 1080 lines of motion resolution








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post #7 of 31 Old 09-14-2008, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the added info guys ,I guess there is more to read and understand when trying to figure out witch TV one should purchase.
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post #8 of 31 Old 09-14-2008, 06:04 PM
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i wonder how cnet came to those conclusions. the pz800 definitely remains more clear than the lcd equivalents.
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post #9 of 31 Old 09-14-2008, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nervx View Post

i wonder how cnet came to those conclusions. the pz800 definitely remains more clear than the lcd equivalents.

Ya that's really weird, especially considering hdtvtest.co.uk/ got 1080 lines of motion resolution out of the TH50PZ80B
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post #10 of 31 Old 09-14-2008, 11:28 PM
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What does this all mean? Our 1080p sets dont really do 1080p?

This place rocks!
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post #11 of 31 Old 09-14-2008, 11:55 PM
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acquinn to answer your question more correctly a static image is represented in all its glory 1080x1920 but when the image moves from frame to frame resolution is lost by the drivers and electronics behind the screen. This is called motion pic res which can be measured and unforetunately only plasmas do a good enough job while lcd tech is way behind. I do have one caveat or bad news to report and that is i do not know when they report 900 res on a plasma for eg. which is nice to see at how many frames per second is this measurement reached at 5,10,24 or utimately it should be 1080p motion pic res at a min of 60 frames. I am right now looking to upgrade to a plasma or lcd tech tv I havent decided on tech yet but leaning more towards plasma. I am still watching movies on a 37 inch(35 inch viewable screen) toshiba crt tube which believe it or not I bought it in 1992 may and its image quility still surpass current new tech I see ( model made in japan when quility was paramount at that time now I see too much out sourceing for higher profit but quility of products are really down this is just my opinion!!)
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post #12 of 31 Old 09-15-2008, 12:09 AM
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I dont want to sound negative at all it is nice to see technology advance but how could both plasma and lcd be sold with such low motion pic res when every regular consumer is actually going to watch a moving pic on tv not a static image. I would like to here from others here to chime in with there opinions and some people who are more in the know to add there comments thx!!
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post #13 of 31 Old 09-15-2008, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avdesign View Post

I dont want to sound negative at all it is nice to see technology advance but how could both plasma and lcd be sold with such low motion pic res when every regular consumer is actually going to watch a moving pic on tv not a static image. I would like to here from others here to chime in with there opinions and some people who are more in the know to add there comments thx!!

Excellent point and one that's often dismissed. Seeing that 100% of the content I view is motion, having top notch Motion resolution is very important to me. However, not much attention has been brought to the subject since the measure is fairly new with new defined test to use as a control. With the marketing push of 1080P it'd be shooting yourself in the foot by having to explain and declare the motion resolution numbers.

My 6020 has great motion resolution. However, I'm sure it can still be improved. I think the quest for 1080 lines of motion resolution should be as critical as perfect black, bright whites, color accuracy, etc. It's a shame that's not the case. Hoping that changes.
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post #14 of 31 Old 09-15-2008, 12:41 AM
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robertr1 thx for reply if ya dont mind you have a 6020 nice plasma by the way what is your viewing distance mine is 12ft trying to figure out whats a good size without going bankrupt or my wife killing me or not able to pay for my daughters future education nice problems to have i guess.
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post #15 of 31 Old 09-15-2008, 06:36 AM
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All the numbers in post #6 are measured incorrectly. Post #1 is the correct way to measure motion picture resolution. Currently, no standard has been adopted by manufacturers so no comparison between sources can be made.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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post #16 of 31 Old 09-15-2008, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avdesign View Post

robertr1 thx for reply if ya dont mind you have a 6020 nice plasma by the way what is your viewing distance mine is 12ft trying to figure out whats a good size without going bankrupt or my wife killing me or not able to pay for my daughters future education nice problems to have i guess.

I'm about 9ft away. Even at 12ft, a 6020 would look awesome. Contact one of the forum sponsors for excellent pricing. Your daughter will appreciate it
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post #17 of 31 Old 09-15-2008, 08:50 AM
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Those numbers for the Panny plasma 50PZ800U seem wrong.
I don't know if they are, but I was under the impression that current gen Sammy's , Panny's and obviously Pio's were all 800+ ??
I agree with XROX that Ithink the test was flawed. Look at the difference on some of the same panels from person to person even.
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post #18 of 31 Old 09-15-2008, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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"With the marketing push of 1080P it'd be shooting yourself in the foot by having to explain and declare the motion resolution numbers."I agree with you RobertR1 ,that if peaple were told about motion resolution that they would be upset with the low number of lines of resolution that these 1080p Plasma's and LCD's output at this time. I am shocked with some of the low scores on the LCD panels.
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post #19 of 31 Old 09-15-2008, 08:44 PM
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As an aside to this discussion. Often LCDs are touted for thier sharpness and clarity with static images. Some say it is due to fill factor or what not. I personally think this perception is due to LCDs having a higher static resolution than plasma displays. I'm not talking native (# of pixels). Plasma must use multiple pixels to represent one pixel in order to generate enough # of gray levels (dithering or error diffusion). This leads to a slight drop in perceived static resolution relative to LCD. However, once movement starts the table turns in Plasma favor.

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post #20 of 31 Old 10-14-2008, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

Those numbers for the Panny plasma 50PZ800U seem wrong.
I don't know if they are, but I was under the impression that current gen Sammy's , Panny's and obviously Pio's were all 800+ ??
I agree with XROX that Ithink the test was flawed. Look at the difference on some of the same panels from person to person even.

I think those numbers are wrong too, Panasonic even advertises the motion resolution on their website.

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...702#tabsection

Moving Picture Resolution: 900 lines or more
Shades of Gradation: 5,120 equivalent
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post #21 of 31 Old 11-05-2009, 10:00 AM
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Do these numbers indicate the clarity of the movement? For instance, some sets I have seen in the stores have amazing clarity if the camera is panning. It's almost life-like. The others are like all the other sets, nothing stands out on them. Is that what these numbers reflect?
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post #22 of 31 Old 11-05-2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRM4 View Post

Do these numbers indicate the clarity of the movement? For instance, some sets I have seen in the stores have amazing clarity if the camera is panning. It's almost life-like. The others are like all the other sets, nothing stands out on them. Is that what these numbers reflect?

Did these sets happen to be 240Hz or 120Hz LCDs showing a demonstration of their motion interpolation capability?

I wonder how such TVs would test out on a motion test, as interpolation involves guessing what would appear between frames as if a higher speed camera was used and as such is inherently inaccurate.

Something else someone should test is motion performance on typical 1080i60 sources including both film and video, albeit it's hard to reproduce 1080 lines when you don't have 1080 to begin with thanks to signal compression.
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post #23 of 31 Old 11-05-2009, 10:24 AM
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the V10 looks like the best right now with the Pioneer plasmas
1080 lines of fast move
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post #24 of 31 Old 11-05-2009, 10:25 AM
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post #25 of 31 Old 09-12-2011, 02:26 PM
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How visible a difference is there between 720 and 900 Moving Picture Resolution to an untrained eye? I am considering Panasonic's TC-P42X3 TC and P42S30 models and wonder if I'll ever notice the difference?
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post #26 of 31 Old 09-12-2011, 02:32 PM
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You can supposedly only notice this difference on "test" patterns... I would say not terribly significant...
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post #27 of 31 Old 09-12-2011, 02:34 PM
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Thanks! And should I be concerned about a native resolution difference between 786,432 (1,024 x 768) and 2,073,600 (1,920 x 1,080)?
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post #28 of 31 Old 09-12-2011, 03:29 PM
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Would recommend 1080P vs 720P if you watch a lot of Blu Ray disks and sit closer than 8ft or so to the TV.....
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post #29 of 31 Old 09-12-2011, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techowiz View Post

Would recommend 1080P vs 720P if you watch a lot of Blu Ray disks and sit closer than 8ft or so to the TV.....

I would agree with that notion, if the set is a 50'' plasma, due to SDE, but with smaller screens, 720p is just fine.


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post #30 of 31 Old 09-13-2011, 06:40 AM
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Some related discussions last year with various linked papers. -- John
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