The Official Pioneer 9G North American KRP-500M / KRP-600M Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 95 - AVS Forum
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post #2821 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

Well I got my 500m at 11am today and wow. It is really something. No dead pixels, screen perfect. I'll give a more detailed analysis of it in a few days, but so far it is just incredible. The blacks, oh my, the blacks.

But damn this thing puts off some heat! Compared to my 60A3000 it is like a small space heater. Just stand near it and you can feel the air is warmer around it. Not good since my AC struggles to keep the heat at bay in that room as it is. I tried power save mode 1 and while is uses a full amp less than standard, I just like the vibrant picture as it guzzles its 400 watts.

I am a proud kuro owner now, and so far I just love looking at my entertainment center, and seeing that beautiful thin panel with "Pioneer" written on it, let alone actually watching stuff on it. I'm pumped!

-Blake

So even without break-in the blacks are already "WOW"?

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post #2822 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 06:47 PM
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Tonight while trying to figure out why my meter and usb-serial port are suddently being all uncooperative I noticed a green sub-pixel died within the last couple of weeks. Sigh, right near the middle. Luckily my aged vision does not reveal it during program material. Lucky it died rather than getting stuck on.

Anyway I'm attaching a file with diffs between all the modes post reset and Optimum. Some things become more obvious to some of us (i.e. me) when presented in this way. E.g. -- what's up with Movie? At least nothing uses Enhance:Soft. Anyway I hope the file (diff -u output) is largely self-explanatory because I don't want to have any 'splainin' to do.

 

diffs.txt 1.75390625k . file


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post #2823 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J0HNNY H0PK1NS View Post

So even without break-in the blacks are already "WOW"?

In a pitch black room I cannot make out the bezel from the black bars. It looks like I have a super widescreen TV during the 2.40:1 or 2.35:1 ratio movies. It stinks I am too scared to watch a full movie with the black bars until I put about 100 hours on it.

I am not going to run any break in disc, as I do not have one and do not have a DVD burner. Just a cd burner. These blacks are just so superior to the A3000 I am astounded.

Perhaps the the blacks will improve more, which is almost unbelieveable, but I suppose there is a teensy weensy bit of improvment, but I am telling you, it is BLACK.
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post #2824 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

As far as the PS3 goes, I was just playing around with it as well, and I found that on limited or full the PS3's black levels do not change during a movie. However, as soon as you change the setting to limited, the menu interface of the PS3 becomes a much lighter shade of gray as opposed to the black black screen on rgb full.

This was all done with the rgb setting at auto on the kuro.

Yeah it looks like YCC/Limited works for BluRays with the PS3 but not with games. For games I have to switch to RGB/FULL

Quote:
Originally Posted by J0HNNY H0PK1NS View Post

So even without break-in the blacks are already "WOW"?

Absolutely. From the first minute I turned the set on the black bars during a bluray blended right in with the bezel.

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post #2825 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

Completely agree however some users are reporting that limited is not working for them which is strange.

Strange indeed. Perhaps they need to check their settings within their KRP displays.


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post #2826 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

In a pitch black room I cannot make out the bezel from the black bars. It looks like I have a super widescreen TV during the 2.40:1 or 2.35:1 ratio movies. It stinks I am too scared to watch a full movie with the black bars until I put about 100 hours on it.

I am not going to run any break in disc, as I do not have one and do not have a DVD burner. Just a cd burner. These blacks are just so superior to the A3000 I am astounded.

Perhaps the the blacks will improve more, which is almost unbelieveable, but I suppose there is a teensy weensy bit of improvment, but I am telling you, it is BLACK.

well i havent played any content yet besides the break in disc but i can describe the idling luminance on a blank signal. there is glow. but if youve come from a previous generation of panasonic or samsung plasmas the glows on those puppies are more prevelant. while there is a glow on the kuros it seems more tamed or muzzled. i can definently see how black bars could fade into the bezel with content. ill get there in a few days.
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post #2827 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

As far as the PS3 goes, I was just playing around with it as well, and I found that on limited or full the PS3's black levels do not change during a movie. However, as soon as you change the setting to limited, the menu interface of the PS3 becomes a much lighter shade of gray as opposed to the black black screen on rgb full.

This was all done with the rgb setting at auto on the kuro.

That is why you have to force RGB 16-235 on the Kuro. This has been discussed before


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post #2828 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

Absolutely. From the first minute I turned the set on the black bars during a bluray blended right in with the bezel.

I'm not sure if people just say things like this without giving it much thought or truly mean what they say. I'm certainly not going to say anyone isn't telling the truth, but honestly, my 600M does not have this feature and really isn't even close.

A fellow forum member has offered me the oppurtunity to check out his 600M to see if I can tell a difference. I will report back later sometime.
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post #2829 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

I'm not sure if people just say things like this without giving it much thought or truly mean what they say. I'm certainly not going to say anyone isn't telling the truth, but honestly, my 600M does not have this feature and really isn't even close.

A fellow forum member has offered me the oppurtunity to check out his 600M to see if I can tell a difference. I will report back later sometime.

The reason I checked right out of the box is because I read your post about the black level being off. I know what my eyes see, and I am seeing a black level that blends in with the bezel in a dark room.

It sounds like your monitor isn't operating at the level it should be

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post #2830 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

The reason I checked right out of the box is because I read your post about the black level being off. I know what my eyes see, and I am seeing a black level that blends in with the bezel in a dark room.

It sounds like your monitor isn't operating at the level it should be

Certainly can't argue with that. Glad to see your unit came in great condition. Congrats.

I'll do what I can, but I just need to make sure I'm seeing/reading everything correctly so when the technicians come over I will be able to explain the problem in hopes to get the unit fixed.
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post #2831 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:50 PM
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Bad news on my 500M! Today I spotted what seems to be a stuck pixel on it. It appears red on a white background can't see it on a red blue or black background. I can see it from about 3ft away, can't see it from where I sit which is about 10ft away. When I look really close I can see it flashs once awhile. Is it something that will go away? Should I return it?
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post #2832 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bamboo5354 View Post

Bad news on my 500M! Today I spotted what seems to be a stuck pixel on it. It appears red on a white background can't see it on a red blue or black background. I can see it from about 3ft away, can't see it from where I sit which is about 10ft away. When I look really close I can see it flashs once awhile. Is it something that will go away? Should I return it?

I got one red stuck pixel as well. I can only see it up close ( around 3 feet ). Honestly, if I can't see from where I sit, I don't give a damn. Just pretend you never saw it and enjoy the tv

You can try playing a pixar film on loop or running the break-in images to see if it unsticks

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post #2833 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bamboo5354 View Post

Bad news on my 500M! Today I spotted what seems to be a stuck pixel on it. It appears red on a white background can't see it on a red blue or black background. I can see it from about 3ft away, can't see it from where I sit which is about 10ft away. When I look really close I can see it flashs once awhile. Is it something that will go away? Should I return it?

Depends.

If every other aspect of your unit is in good condition: no buzz, proper blacks, no DSE, and just in overall great condition I wouldn't worry about it. I'd assume you purchased this from some online vendor and you won't be able to return it with a single stuck pixel. You likely won't see it during normal viewing material especially sitting 10ft back from a 50''. Try to forget about it and just enjoy the unit. However if there are a number of other problems with the unit I would suggest getting it replaced. Good luck.
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post #2834 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NateTTU View Post

Certainly can't argue with that. Glad to see your unit came in great condition. Congrats.

I'll do what I can, but I just need to make sure I'm seeing/reading everything correctly so when the technicians come over I will be able to explain the problem in hopes to get the unit fixed.

Hopefully your issue with the black level on your 600 is isolated and also fixable with minimal hassle. Good Luck

Quote:
Originally Posted by bamboo5354 View Post

Bad news on my 500M! Today I spotted what seems to be a stuck pixel on it. It appears red on a white background can't see it on a red blue or black background. I can see it from about 3ft away, can't see it from where I sit which is about 10ft away. When I look really close I can see it flashs once awhile. Is it something that will go away? Should I return it?

The local store where I'm purchasing the 500M has told me something of this nature is a manufacturer replacement/repair issue and wouldnt justify a store return. Hopefully this particular issue is also something uncommon. ...Hopefully.

bamboo, how old/new is your M?

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post #2835 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

That is why you have to force RGB 16-235 on the Kuro. This has been discussed before


That is true. For me, I set the PS3 to full, RGB, with super white on and left the TV on auto. This displayed the correct black levels without crushing it. This allowed playing BDs, video games, as well as comcast DVR without having to switch the Kuro back and forth.

Again, this setup worked for me and everything looks good. Let me know if you recommend something else..

Also, keep in mind, that if you set the PS3 to full RGB and then set the kuro to 16-235, the blacks will get crushed.


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post #2836 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Tonight while trying to figure out why my meter and usb-serial port are suddently being all uncooperative I noticed a green sub-pixel died within the last couple of weeks. Sigh, right near the middle. Luckily my aged vision does not reveal it during program material. Lucky it died rather than getting stuck on.

Anyway I'm attaching a file with diffs between all the modes post reset and Optimum. Some things become more obvious to some of us (i.e. me) when presented in this way. E.g. -- what's up with Movie? At least nothing uses Enhance:Soft. Anyway I hope the file (diff -u output) is largely self-explanatory because I don't want to have any 'splainin' to do.

My condolences on the loss of your subpixel, may it R.I.P, and with any luck, rise again.
Seriously though, Movie mode defaults are messed up. Gamma 5, Color -6, CSpace 1? Is this someones idea of settings to watch video from an old 8mm camcorder?


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post #2837 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:05 PM
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[quote=J0HNNY H0PK1NS;16582488]The local store where I'm purchasing the 500M has told me something of this nature is a manufacturer replacement/repair issue and wouldnt justify a store return. Hopefully this particular issue is also something uncommon. ...Hopefully.
[quote]

Having at least one dead or stuck pixel seems pretty common. Even though it is a warranty issue, Pioneer won't replace a panel until it has 10 or something close to that if IRC.
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post #2838 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

As far as the PS3 goes, I was just playing around with it as well, and I found that on limited or full the PS3's black levels do not change during a movie. However, as soon as you change the setting to limited, the menu interface of the PS3 becomes a much lighter shade of gray as opposed to the black black screen on rgb full.

This was all done with the rgb setting at auto on the kuro.

The proper settings for kuro and ps3 are:
Kuro: Auto
Ps3:
ColorSpace: Auto
RGB: Full
SuperWhite: On

Why?
When the PS3 is set to auto it uses the colorspace of the source, which for 99.9% of movies is YpbCbPrCr. The PS3 menu, interface and games use RGB (PC standard).

Setting the RGB to full allows the PS3 to output 0-255 levels of RGB which is the PC standard and offers the best performance. This is only displayed when the PS3 is outputing RGB (menu and games).

Setting SuperWhite to on allows Whiter than White to be displayed when a YpbCbPrCr source is output. This will display very brite white highlights in your movies. You will also notice that when the PS3 is outputting YpbCbPrCr that you will be able to see Blacker than Black.

Setting the Kuro to auto will automatically switch between modes it senses. This is a good thing except for some reason it does not sense limited RGB and will not switch. That's why it is important to make sure your PS3 is outputing Full RGB when in RGB mode. Also, it is important to know if the signal from your PS3 is being clipped by your receiver. Yamaha receivers prior to this years models clip RGB down to limited range no matter what (there is a firmware fix for last years models).
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post #2839 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamboo5354 View Post

Should I return it?

If you can return the you'll have to decide. My 500 has a dead sub-pixel which is a recent development. One pixel is not eligible for warranty repair but a retailer with a strong return policy might take it back. And you might get another bad pixel.


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post #2840 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docmal View Post

The proper settings for kuro and ps3 are:
Kuro: Auto
Ps3:
ColorSpace: Auto
RGB: Full
SuperWhite: On

Why?
When the PS3 is set to auto it uses the colorspace of the source, which for 99.9% of movies is YpbCbPrCr. The PS3 menu, interface and games use RGB (PC standard).

Setting the RGB to full allows the PS3 to output 0-255 levels of RGB which is the PC standard and offers the best performance. This is only displayed when the PS3 is outputing RGB (menu and games).

Setting SuperWhite to on allows Whiter than White to be displayed when a YpbCbPrCr source is output. This will display very brite white highlights in your movies. You will also notice that when the PS3 is outputting YpbCbPrCr that you will be able to see Blacker than Black.

Setting the Kuro to auto will automatically switch between modes it senses. This is a good thing except for some reason it does not sense limited RGB and will not switch. That's why it is important to make sure your PS3 is outputing Full RGB when in RGB mode. Also, it is important to know if the signal from your PS3 is being clipped by your receiver. Yamaha receivers prior to this years models clip RGB down to limited range no matter what (there is a firmware fix for last years models).


Great explanation, Thank you.

I originally had mine on RGB colorspace and full, but I'll change it to AUTO and full as that works too.


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post #2841 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefiantGSR View Post

That is true. For me, I set the PS3 to full, RGB, with super white on and left the TV on auto. This displayed the correct black levels without crushing it. This allowed playing BDs, video games, as well as comcast DVR without having to switch the Kuro back and forth.

Again, this setup worked for me and everything looks good. Let me know if you recommend something else..

Also, keep in mind, that if you set the PS3 to full RGB and then set the kuro to 16-235, the blacks will get crushed.

BDs are not enconded to use RGB PC 0-255. if you are using this, your picture is inherently wrong. Please set your PS3 to output RGB and RGB 16-235 and force the KRP to use RGB16-235.


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post #2842 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docmal View Post

The proper settings for kuro and ps3 are:
Kuro: Auto
Ps3:
ColorSpace: Auto
RGB: Full
SuperWhite: On

Incorrect.


KRP
  • RGB 16-235

PS3
  • Colorspace: RGB
  • RGB: Limited
  • Superwhite: On


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post #2843 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neumei626 View Post

I am not going to run any break in disc, as I do not have one and do not have a DVD burner.

You don't need the break in disc. Copy different shades of reds, blues, greens and grays from the internet, after upscaling them to 1920 x 1280 (or more) with picture software, into a flash drive. If you have a PS3 or similar media hub, you can carousel the hues in a loop. Each hue will flash for a few seconds then change to another in the loop. Viola! Instant break-in. That's what I did; works like a charm...
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post #2844 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

BDs are not enconded to use RGB PC 0-255. if you are using this, your picture is inherently wrong. Please set your PS3 to output RGB and RGB 16-235 and force the KRP to use RGB16-235.

Thanks for the response D-Nice.

Would setting the PS3 to AUTO, and then setting RGB to full work as well? From the post above, it seems the PS3 will output YCC for movies and RGB full for video games?


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post #2845 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DefiantGSR View Post

Thanks for the response D-Nice.

Would setting the PS3 to AUTO, and then setting RGB to full work as well? From the post above, it seems the PS3 will output YCC for movies and RGB for video games?

If you use what docmal posted, your KRP will detect the signal as a RGB PC 0-255 signal which is incorrect. As I've said before, RGB PC 0-255 should never be used with BDs as BDs are not and never will be encoded with PC RGB levels.


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post #2846 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

If you use what docmal posted, your KRP will detect the signal as a RGB PC 0-255 signal which is incorrect. As I've said before, RGB PC 0-255 should never be used with BDs as BDs are not and never will be encoded with PC RGB levels.

Ahh I see. So the PS3 will not output YCC if set on auto even for BDs. Or is YCC not correct for BDs either? Thanks

I guess I'm stuck with switching back and forth. hehe


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post #2847 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docmal View Post

Also, it is important to know if the signal from your PS3 is being clipped by your receiver. Yamaha receivers prior to this years models clip RGB down to limited range no matter what (there is a firmware fix for last years models).

Wow! Thanx! I just ordered a Yamaha receiver and speakers for the KRP; I'm using a PS3 for games and a Denon for blu-ray and thats good to know..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Incorrect.



KRP
  • RGB 16-235

PS3
  • Colorspace: RGB
  • RGB: Limited
  • Superwhite: On

D-Nice,
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. I know you are the Kuro authority on this forum and I appreciate your input but I believe you are mistaken about the proper settings in this instance.

My logic makes sense and I have thoroughly tested my hypothesis. Setting the system my way produces the exact same black levels in movies without crush as your settings with the following benefits:
  • True 0-255 RGB (PC Levels) on games
  • Keep the Kuro on auto which will allow the kuro to switch its colorspace based on input
  • You will be able to see Blacker than Black on the DVE disk when your PS3 is outputting YrPB 4:4:4, whereas you cannot see Blacker than black with your settings.
  • The PS3 does not have to encode the color information from your BD into the RGB colorspace, it instead can use the native YrPb colorspace.
I suggest you test these settings yourself using the latest PS3 firmware. I have run tests and can reproduce the effect of crushing blacks and greying blacks by altering these settings:

Crushed:
Kuro: RGB 16-235
PS3:
RGB
Full
Superwhite doesn't matter

Greyed Blacks:
Kuro: RGB 0-255 or Auto
PS#:
RGB
limited
Superwhite doesn't matter
Here is the error when the Kuro is set to Auto it doesnt pick up the PS3 limited setting, my theory is that the PS3 is compressing 0-255 levels into 16-235 but still sending BTB and WTW information ie 0-15 and 236-255, thus tricking the Kuro into seeing 0-255.
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post #2849 of 4963 Old 06-03-2009, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

If you use what docmal posted, your KRP will detect the signal as a RGB PC 0-255 signal which is incorrect. As I've said before, RGB PC 0-255 should never be used with BDs as BDs are not and never will be encoded with PC RGB levels.

This is simply not true. I am looking at it right now and it detects BDs as YCC 4:4:4.

You can test this by setting it my way and then cycling the Kuro between the modes until the proper image is displayed.
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post #2850 of 4963 Old 06-04-2009, 12:31 AM
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I`m expecting delivery of a 500m tomorrow between 1-5pm ,i`m crossing my fingers,but i got a steal of a deal though,so i had extra cash left over for extended warranty and freight delivery.We shall see if i get a cracked screen what not.
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