2009 Panasonic 12G Plasma Line-Up - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 09:04 AM
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Whats ABL?
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post #722 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

Regardless of who is right or wrong, in the perfect display the ABL would either have to be improved or removed all together.

I would have to disagree on the removed part. Maximizing peak brightness at low APL will always be beneficial with regards to contrast and eye fatigue. I've previously said that an optional ABL would be ideal to enable daylight viewing in Plasma or CRT. However, a "perfect" display would have an ABL and still have bright enough 100% APL. Remember, the ABL is supposed to stabalize average brightness. LCDs have tried in the past to mimick this effect but the black level floats as a result.

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post #723 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post

Whats ABL?

ABL = Automatic Brightness Limiter

APL = Average Picture Level
APL = Average Pixel Level

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post #724 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

ABL = Automatic Brightness Limiter

APL = Average Picture Level
APL = Average Pixel Level

Oops- I guess I've been using the term ABL in a lot of places where I should have been using APL. Oh well. Thanks for spelling it out.
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post #725 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I would have to disagree on the removed part. Maximizing peak brightness at low APL will always be beneficial with regards to contrast and eye fatigue. I've previously said that an optional ABL would be ideal to enable daylight viewing in Plasma or CRT. However, a "perfect" display would have an ABL and still have bright enough 100% APL. Remember, the ABL is supposed to stabalize average brightness. LCDs have tried in the past to mimick this effect but the black level floats as a result.

After reading your view I have to agree with you as well.

With the lights on not having an ABL may not be an issue (at least for some). However, going from a dark scene to a bright scene in a darkened room could potentially cause an instant headache depending on how a person's display is calibrated.

And as you've stated, floating blacks are an issue on LCDs. That's one area I do not like about LCDs. Color depth tends to float from scene to scene more so than on plasma(which is probably due to it's ABL).

So an optional/adjustable ABL would be a great choice.
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post #726 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dsmith901 View Post

Does anyone have specs as to the actual width of the 54" models? I would like to know if the V10 could fit in my present space. Thanks.

I'm dying to know this as well. If the 54" won't fit in my current space, I'd like to just pick up the Kuro 5020 now while they are on sale.
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post #727 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I would have to disagree on the removed part. Maximizing peak brightness at low APL will always be beneficial with regards to contrast and eye fatigue. I've previously said that an optional ABL would be ideal to enable daylight viewing in Plasma or CRT. However, a "perfect" display would have an ABL and still have bright enough 100% APL. Remember, the ABL is supposed to stabalize average brightness. LCDs have tried in the past to mimick this effect but the black level floats as a result.

I'm sorry, but eye fatigue seems to be a poor excuse when in reality the reason is to cut energy consumption and heat whenever a bright scene is presented. You said the ABL is supposed to stabilize average brightness, well, for $3000 i'd like to stabilize the average brightness myself. What i don't understand is, if i set a number for brightness....let's say "40", and contrast at "0", don't these numbers change in real time depending on what the ABL decides to do at a given time?
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post #728 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 07:40 PM
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Does anyone know for sure whether or not the entire V10 series is using the single sheet? There seems to be info coming out of CES that only the 50" is using the single sheet, however, most of the press releases seem to be originating from the same source. Also, any advantages? The display will be viewed head on, not from an angle.
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post #729 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

You said the ABL is supposed to stabilize average brightness, well, for $3000 i'd like to stabilize the average brightness myself.

I think you mean stabalize "peak" brightness at all APL. The ABL stabalizes "average" brightness. Hint: your pupil dilates in response to "average" brightness. And your pupil cannot react anywhere close to quick enough to prevent overexposure.

I personally think that people who complain about the ABL are doing so because the ABL is much too aggressive making the brightness shifts very visible to them. If properly implemented on a capable display there should be no perceivable drop in brightness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

I'm sorry, but eye fatigue seems to be a poor excuse when in reality the reason is to cut energy consumption and heat whenever a bright scene is presented.

Energy consumption control is by far the most important reason for an ABL in any power on demand device (including OLED). That is not in question. However, like I've pointed out it also improves contrast and lowers eye fatigue. Even highly efficient displays may include an optional ABL for these very reasons.Think of the ideal case as the following: Set full screen white to the brightness that satisfies you and then the ABL will "increase" peak brightness as APL goes down in order to maximize contrast without any overexposure of the retina.

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post #730 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

I think you mean stabalize "peak" brightness at all APL. The ABL stabalizes "average" brightness. Hint: your pupil dilates in response to "average" brightness. And your pupil cannot react anywhere close to quick enough to prevent overexposure.

I personally think that people who complain about the ABL are doing so because the ABL is much too aggressive making the brightness shifts very visible to them. If properly implemented on a capable display there should be no perceivable drop in brightness.

Energy consumption control is by far the most important reason for an ABL in any power on demand device (including OLED). That is not in question. However, like I've pointed out it also improves contrast and lowers eye fatigue. Even highly efficient displays may include an optional ABL for these very reasons.Think of the ideal case as the following: Set full screen white to the brightness that satisfies you and then the ABL will "increase" peak brightness as APL goes down in order to maximize contrast without any overexposure of the retina.

Let me ask this since you are a lot more familiar with plasma technology than me. In regards to the new neoPDP's, where the lumenence has increased to 5, and where D-NICE has stated that these definately will be brighter, what inclination do you have in relation to the ABL and these displays? Do you feel Panasonic had to tweak the ABL because of the increased lumenece? And because of this, do you think the ABL in these new neo's would be burdened more than, let's say the 800u, which is the display the V10 is replacing? In other words, for someone like myself who is skeptical for the reason of ABL, is there a possibility that the ABL feature in the new V10 will have to be more aggressive than in previous models? Or, because the new neoPDP's are more energy efficient than previous models, does this mean the ABL can be less intrusive since it wouldn't have to cut peak brightness to maintain a wattage spec on par with LCD's?
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post #731 of 3994 Old 01-28-2009, 09:10 PM
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"Set full screen white to the brightness that satisfies you and then the ABL will "increase" peak brightness as APL goes down in order to maximize contrast without any overexposure of the retina."

OK, i just read this again and i think i finally understand this whole ABL thing. I was under the impression that when i set the exact level of brightness to my liking, the ABL would kick in and dim the picture just to annoy me. That it would lower the brightness setting from my number. But what you are saying is when the ABL circuitry kicks in it instead maximizes the contrast level by balancing the brightness level in relation to what's on the screen. So that the brightness won't be overpowering. This makes sense.
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post #732 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

Does anyone know for sure whether or not the entire V10 series is using the single sheet? There seems to be info coming out of CES that only the 50" is using the single sheet, however, most of the press releases seem to be originating from the same source. Also, any advantages? The display will be viewed head on, not from an angle.

From what I have read, the single sheet of glass concept applies to all models up THROUGH the 54" model. The 58" and 65" models will have frames
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post #733 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr View Post

Does anyone know for sure whether or not the entire V10 series is using the single sheet? There seems to be info coming out of CES that only the 50" is using the single sheet, however, most of the press releases seem to be originating from the same source. Also, any advantages? The display will be viewed head on, not from an angle.

There are absolutely no off-angle viewing advantages to Panasonic's "Single Sheet of Glass Design". These models have an outer sheet of protective glass over the plasma panel just like all the other models, the only difference is that this outer glass extends to the edges of the cabinet instead of ending under a plastic bezel surround. When you sit way off to the side, you'll still see the reflecting text issue that all Panasonic plasmas have. But from head on, none of the different designs have any sort of advantage over the other

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post #734 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanlanman View Post

From what I have read, the single sheet of glass concept applies to all models up THROUGH the 54" model. The 58" and 65" models will have frames

Does the current 58" PZ850 have the single sheet design?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

There are absolutely no off-angle viewing advantages to Panasonic's "Single Sheet of Glass Design".

Yeah, it seems like the term "single sheet of glass" gets used to describe two different things. The first is the glass extending over the bezel, as you described. The second is the PDP module itself being covered by only a single glass sheet, as with Pioneer's plasmas. It is this latter construction that can offer a PQ benefit because it eliminates the potential for double images due to internal reflection. To me the phrase "single sheet of glass" most fittingly describes this latter idea. I think this is why there's some confusion. Unfortunately Panasonic uses it to describe the bezel. That should really be called "glass covered bezel" or "unified screen and bezel" or something along those lines.
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post #735 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

Does the current 58" PZ850 have the single sheet design?

Yeah, it seems like the term "single sheet of glass" gets used to describe two different things. The first is the glass extending over the bezel, as you described. The second is the PDP module itself being covered by only a single glass sheet, as with Pioneer's plasmas. It is this latter construction that can offer a PQ benefit because it eliminates the potential for double images due to internal reflection. To me the phrase "single sheet of glass" most fittingly describes this latter idea. I think this is why there's some confusion. Unfortunately Panasonic uses it to describe the bezel. That should really be called "glass covered bezel" or "unified screen and bezel" or something along those lines.

No doubt that Panasonic has confused the issue between the plasma screen matrix design and the screen "cover". To me, one of the more significant advantages of Pioneer over Panasonic plasmas has been the design of the screen "matrix", not whether there is a glass cover over the bezel and screen.

The inner reflection of the Panasonic Plasma sets (as well as all other plasma makers) has made them a non-option for me versus the Pioneer which uses 1 -less sheet of glass within the screen matrix and therefore no inner reflection. With all of Pioneer's screen manufacturing going over to Panasonic in March, do those in this forum think that Pioneer will lose this screen matrix advantage (hard to imagine) or will Panasonic gain this screen technology (making Panasonic plasmas a real option from my perspective) or will they remain separate designs within the same Panasonic manufacturing plant (hard to imagine from a cost standpoint)? Thoughts?

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post #736 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 08:23 AM
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A what angle can people see the reflection due to the two sheets of glass? I would think that you would have to be at a fairly large angle for it to be visible at all.
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post #737 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 09:16 AM
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Hi All,

Is there any indication or information available regarding any improvements to SD (particularly off air TV & satellite channels) performance with these new G12 Panny's? Has there been any notable improvements in any processing/scaling etc that would lead one to think that the sets should give very good SD performance? I was not that impressed with the SD performance of the 2008 Panny's and am hoping this year it might be different!

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post #738 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 09:23 AM
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A what angle can people see the reflection due to the two sheets of glass? I would think that you would have to be at a fairly large angle for it to be visible at all.

Yes you do have to be at a fairly large angle to see this effect, and even then it's only available on certain content. I watch a lot of TV from my desk in the corner of the room which makes my viewing angle about 45 degrees and i can really only see this effect when text is displayed on a solid-colored backround (which is rare) and is easily ignored if you choose not to focus on it. It's more apparent up close, but not so much at normal viewing distances (desk is 9 feet from the screen). If you go into any store and look at any Panasonic plasma from way off to the side from a few feet away you'll be able to spot this effect with text over a solid contrasting backround. As you back further away it should be less visible. It's been this way since their inception but it's not a big deal in normal viewing.

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post #739 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

Yes you do have to be at a fairly large angle to see this effect, and even then it's only available on certain content. I watch a lot of TV from my desk in the corner of the room which makes my viewing angle about 45 degrees and i can really only see this effect when text is displayed on a solid-colored backround (which is rare) and is easily ignored if you choose not to focus on it. It's more apparent up close, but not so much at normal viewing distances (desk is 9 feet from the screen). If you go into any store and look at any Panasonic plasma from way off to the side from a few feet away you'll be able to spot this effect with text over a solid contrasting backround. As you back further away it should be less visible. It's been this way since their inception but it's not a big deal in normal viewing.

Maybe its just my eyes however I seem to pick up on the internal Panny reflection quite easily. You're right that its not readily seen in typical programming however I watch alot of sports and there's usually scores, stats player info etc. throughout most sports programming. My eye seems to pickup on the internal reflection very easily and it doesn't require much of any angle for me to see it. From a distance off-angle, it gives me the impression of blurry lettering. Up close its just a distracting "double-layering" effect of the white letter/numbers against the dark background.

I was hopeful to hear that maybe the glass sandwich used in the Pioneer (no internal reflection) would be used in the 12G - newer Panny's since they will be making Pioneer's screen after March of this year. Has anyone heard?

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post #740 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 10:46 AM
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Damn it! i wish we would get prices. especially the G10
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post #741 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 11:34 AM
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Damn it! i wish we would get prices. especially the G10

I know. Everyone is awaiting anxiously on the MSRP.

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post #742 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 12:43 PM
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I know. Everyone is awaiting anxiously on the MSRP.

Chris

Maybe, just maybe, the prices are so wicked low that they don't want to spill them until most of their old stock is out of the channel!
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Maybe, just maybe, the prices are so wicked low that they don't want to spill them until most of their old stock is out of the channel!

Could be true, I'm having trouble finding stock on any HDTV right now.

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post #744 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 01:03 PM
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Maybe the bean counters are trying to figure out, in the current economy, how many displays they're likely to sell at a given price point. I wouldn't want to be trying to shoot that moving target. Kinda a buyer's market right now so pricing should be interesting.
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post #745 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 01:12 PM
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There is only one thing that matters to me: will any of the Panny's have deeper blacks than the 9G Kuro. To me , that is the single most important aspect of PQ. So if they won't go darker, then I would rather hold out for a great deal on a 60 inch Pio 9G after the Pio 10G's come out. I have a 50 inch 9G in the living room, but may be building a Man Room, where I can have another setup. Tv has to be 60 inches, and I want a Plasma. I love the 9G Kuro so much, that I think I may finally have found a PQ that is "good enough" for me!!!
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post #746 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 01:18 PM
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There is only one thing that matters to me: will any of the Panny's have deeper blacks than the 9G Kuro.

No
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post #747 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

There is only one thing that matters to me: will any of the Panny's have deeper blacks than the 9G Kuro. To me , that is the single most important aspect of PQ. So if they won't go darker, then I would rather hold out for a great deal on a 60 inch Pio 9G after the Pio 10G's come out. I have a 50 inch 9G in the living room, but may be building a Man Room, where I can have another setup. Tv has to be 60 inches, and I want a Plasma. I love the 9G Kuro so much, that I think I may finally have found a PQ that is "good enough" for me!!!

From what D-nice has said, the 2009 Panny black levels won't even be as good as 8G Kuro.
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post #748 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 02:37 PM
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I'm stuck between getting an 800u or waiting for the wireless...

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post #749 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 02:45 PM
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No

But will they have the same blacks?
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post #750 of 3994 Old 01-29-2009, 02:52 PM
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New Global site is up

http://panasonic.net/avc/viera/

Wonder why they chose not to list the resolution of any of their panels..

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