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post #91 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 07:19 AM
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Review of the PN50A550.
Calibrated black level was .027 ft-L.
A 50% reduction would be ~ .014 ft-L or about the same as last years (11g) Panasonics.
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post #92 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 07:53 AM
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Hi,

This is an excerpt from a review of last years Samsung PS-50A756 Plasma - based on this, one could be led to believe that last years Sammy's and Panny's were almost neck & neck (with the advantage going to Panny) but there was not much in it - I therefore expected this years newer models to be even better?

"The single greatest impact following the PS50A556 debacle comes from the startling depth of the PS50A756's black levels. The almost complete lack of greyness in dark areas of the picture thrashes anything yet seen from an LCD screen, and appears at least as good as anything Panasonic can offer with its plasmas right now. Pioneer's KURO sets can, of course, go slightly deeper still, but you'll have to spend way more for one of those than this Samsung costs you. There's also only the tiniest, tiniest hint of the green undertone to dark areas that used to characterise plasma technology. What's more, the Samsung's superb black levels are joined by much more intense brightness levels than we witnessed with the PS50A556, leading to images of truly outstanding dynamism during high-contrast National Treasure scenes such as the early one in the university lecture hall."


http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/re...n-Plasma-TV/p1


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post #93 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 07:57 AM
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The 760 has the same measured black level as the a650 I thought I read....if true then VFR's numbers aplly to it as well from two posts above.
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post #94 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi,

If that .012 is fL it equals 0.4cd/m2 - there's no way they can be that bad - the reviews I have read on last years top end Sammy's pretty much stated that the black levels were very good indeed - very nearly as good as the G11 Panny's which ranged from 0.04cd/m2 to 0.05cd/m2. Even a Sony W4500 CCFL backlit LCD matches 0.05cd/m2 so I would be very surprised if this years Samsungs are that bad. This years Panny's are estimated to have Black Levels of around 0.02cd/m2 and I really hope that the new Sammy's can match or exceed this! If I am in error in any way - apologies!

Bazzy!

Last year's Samsungs had pretty poor black levels, significantly worse than most CCFL backlit LCDs.

Reviewers who called them "very good" were either mistaken or comparing them to plasmas/LCDs of the distant past (ie, two or three years ago).
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post #95 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Last year's Samsungs had pretty poor black levels, significantly worse than most CCFL backlit LCDs.

Reviewers who called them "very good" were either mistaken or comparing them to plasmas/LCDs of the distant past (ie, two or three years ago).

Hi,

I think you may be right across certain lower lines of Sammy's models - they did not have great blacks at all but the top end ones did like the 6 series and especially the 7 series. Lets just hope something much better comes this year - I really like the new 8 series, it has all the features I want and I like the looks of it - I need the blacks to really be excellent! Damn Samsung & LG for not offering 42" & 46" Full HD plasma screens!

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post #96 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 10:14 AM
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Same black levels across the board is what I've read. 550-650-760 all the same....certianly look that way as well.
Halving it would make for better IQ, but to get good blacks they will need to do more....guess we'll see soon enough.
Their user menu CMS is a great thing.
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post #97 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Last year's Samsungs had pretty poor black levels, significantly worse than most CCFL backlit LCDs.

Reviewers who called them "very good" were either mistaken or comparing them to plasmas/LCDs of the distant past (ie, two or three years ago).

Chris, I think you may have issues interpreting numbers and what they mean in the real world. As with audio distortion, numbers can be deceiving.
An amplifier generating 0.1% THD is 100 worse numerically than the that measures 0.001% THD. In the real world, our ears like our eyes respond logarithmically, so deltas like this if they are noticeable are slight and nowhere near the what one may think.
Thus the reason why the reviewer in the case cited above said the differences with the Sammy and Kuro black levels slight.
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post #98 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 10:21 AM
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It isn't subtle in real world viewing....there is just too much of a gap for it to be anyother way.
Heck, there is a very noticeable gap between the 08 Panny's and the 8g Pio's let alone the 9g's.

But the 08 Sammy's still provided great IQ and if they don't cut out any performance and add better blacks it will be a fine pdp that is super thin.(if you care about that).
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post #99 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 10:36 AM
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Here is a powerpoint presentation on Samsungs plasma plans.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2455579/...PDP-Technology
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post #100 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

It isn't subtle in real world viewing....there is just too much of a gap for it to be anyother way.

That's your opinion. Obviously others may not see it that way.
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post #101 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 10:50 AM
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Very true.
But it is my experience, not guess on just the numbers.
I've had an a550 right next to a 5020 for the last week in my home.

That is there obvious hurdle right now and I want to seem them jump it, I like Sammy displays and it would only make sense for them to get their pdp's to at least close to their lcd's in blacks,....while keeping them uniform like their pdp's.
I want Sammy to spend some more of that uber lcd money on their pdp's especially now more than ever with Pioneer leaving.
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post #102 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

Chris, I think you may have issues interpreting numbers and what they mean in the real world. As with audio distortion, numbers can be deceiving.
An amplifier generating 0.1% THD is 100 worse numerically than the that measures 0.001% THD. In the real world, our ears like our eyes respond logarithmically, so deltas like this if they are noticeable are slight and nowhere near the what one may think.
Thus the reason why the reviewer in the case cited above said the differences with the Sammy and Kuro black levels slight.

I don't have any issues interpreting numbers. While .026 ftl vs 0.004 ftl may sound like the point of diminishing returns has been met, this is not at all the case. Samsung's black levels leave a lot to be desired. Their plasmas are compelling in almost every other way (especially the flexibility and accurate color), but they need to make big improvements to the blacks.

I'm 0.00107 miles tall. Yao Ming is 0.00142 miles tall. How insignificant is that difference?
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post #103 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I'm 0.00107 miles tall. Yao Ming is 0.00142 miles tall. How insignificant is that difference?

That depends. Perhaps in basketball meaningful. In the grand scheme of things, nothing.
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post #104 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

That depends. Perhaps in basketball meaningful. In the grand scheme of things, nothing.

If you feel that way I would stick with a 13" B&W TV.
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post #105 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 12:27 PM
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I have my doubts about LG after they got nailed for price fixing in the LCD market I'll choose another company thank you.
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post #106 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tikki50 View Post

I have my doubts about LG after they got nailed for price fixing in the LCD market I'll choose another company thank you.

If either LG or Samsung releases a plasma with blacks at or below Pioneer 8G levels, I will probably buy it. They have good TVs that are ruined by the crappy blacks.
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post #107 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I don't have any issues interpreting numbers. While .026 ftl vs 0.004 ftl may sound like the point of diminishing returns has been met, this is not at all the case. Samsung's black levels leave a lot to be desired. Their plasmas are compelling in almost every other way (especially the flexibility and accurate color), but they need to make big improvements to the blacks.

I'm 0.00107 miles tall. Yao Ming is 0.00142 miles tall. How insignificant is that difference?

Exactly. Those numbers back up our personal viewing experiences. I had both Samsung and Panasonic 2008 models in my home at one point and I would say the blacks of the Panasonic were twice as good as the Samsung, which is about exactly what they were measured to be. It was definitely noticeable. Anyone who is trying to say otherwise is just trying to defend their purchase. The Samsungs are good sets but their blacks are not as good, and that is a fact.
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post #108 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

If either LG or Samsung releases a plasma with blacks at or below Pioneer 8G levels, I will probably buy it. They have good TVs that are ruined by the crappy blacks.

If LG had Kuro blacks, we would have heard about it A LOT. Look how much Samsung is hyping up their black levels this year ("mega dynamic contrast", "some of the deepest blacks ever seen on an HDTV", etc.), even though they will not even get as low as 11g Panasonic.
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post #109 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

If you feel that way I would stick with a 13" B&W TV.

No. It's just that you kuro diehards insist that your definition of what a good viewing experience is and PQ, is centered around kuros strength, black level numbers. Again others and lets be quite frank here, the buying public rejected that definition!
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post #110 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Exactly. Those numbers back up our personal viewing experiences. I had both Samsung and Panasonic 2008 models in my home at one point and I would say the blacks of the Panasonic were twice as good as the Samsung, which is about exactly what they were measured to be. It was definitely noticeable. Anyone who is trying to say otherwise is just trying to defend their purchase. The Samsungs are good sets but their blacks are not as good, and that is a fact.

I don't have to defend anything since Samsung is the one stilll in the plasma business!
Even the kuros aren't absolute black.
Both statements are facts!
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post #111 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 01:41 PM
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Hey I love my Sammy....wish I had a 60" Elite
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post #112 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

No. It's just that you kuro diehards insist that your definition of what a good viewing experience is and PQ, is centered around kuros strength, black level numbers. Again others and lets be quite frank here, the buying public rejected that definition!

I'm not a Kuro diehard and I will admit they aren't oerfect. I also think that at a certain point, black levels are "good enough" for 99 percent of content. Samsung isn't anywhere near that point, unfortunately.
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post #113 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I'm not a Kuro diehard and I will admit they aren't oerfect. I also think that at a certain point, black levels are "good enough" for 99 percent of content. Samsung isn't anywhere near that point, unfortunately.

Hi,

You are getting me worried now - my G10 Kuro dreams are down the pan, the latest Panasonic's do not seem that great and the V series I am interested in not going to be available in the 46" size in my country, LG's latest PS8000 top plasma due reportedly has black levels of only 0.08cd/m2 (crap) and maybe this 8 series Sammy may not now live up to any decent black levels. In the UK, the G9 prices are still quite high and to add insult to injury, we have to pay around $200 extra for the speaker and stand each!

You know what, I am getting so freaking f****d off at this lack of choice and options in the plasma camp that I may just but some second hand worthless crap and make do with that till next year and hope that Panasonic get their freaking fingers out of their backsides and produce the kind of sets they lure us with at trade shows. If Sammy do not produce great blacks this year, then I do not think they ever will. Sorry for the rant - I am upset.

Bazzy!
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post #114 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi,

You are getting me worried now - my G10 Kuro dreams are down the pan, the latest Panasonic's do not seem that great and the V series I am interested in not going to be available in the 46" size in my country, LG's latest PS8000 top plasma due reportedly has black levels of only 0.08cd/m2 (crap) and maybe this 8 series Sammy may not now live up to any decent black levels. In the UK, the G9 prices are still quite high and to add insult to injury, we have to pay around $200 extra for the speaker and stand each!

You know what, I am getting so freaking f****d off at this lack of choice and options in the plasma camp that I may just but some second hand worthless crap and make do with that till next year and hope that Panasonic get their freaking fingers out of their backsides and produce the kind of sets they lure us with at trade shows. If Sammy do not produce great blacks this year, then I do not think they ever will. Sorry for the rant - I am upset.

Bazzy!

I don't think the new LGs will be 0.08cd/m2, that number doesn't seem reasonable.

Hopefully the new Panasonics will have Pioneer 8Gish blacks, reasonable prices, and no awful color errors.
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post #115 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 03:52 PM
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sometimes, I just want to give you guys my sony crt.

The screen disappears when it goes black in a dark room. How much longer do we have to wait for that in plasma????

I thought samsung was doing stuff similar to 5 lumen tech as far as achieving greater blacks and better brightness. Their pdp presentation that I saw from xrox had a target date of 2010 for infinite contrast.

"If you weren't such an ignorant troll, you'd be adorable" -rogo
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post #116 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

sometimes, I just want to give you guys my sony crt.

The screen disappears when it goes black in a dark room. How much longer do we have to wait for that in plasma????


...yeah, but show any content at all and the black level jumps up much higher than the Kuros.
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post #117 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

I don't think the new LGs will be 0.08cd/m2, that number doesn't seem reasonable.

Hopefully the new Panasonics will have Pioneer 8Gish blacks, reasonable prices, and no awful color errors.

Hi,

Last years PG7000 Plasmas on HDTVtest had black levels measured at 0.13cd/m2. For this years PS8000 series, 0.08cd/m2 was quoted by an LG "Product Specialist"

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1232360666

Bear in mind, this same guy also said in another report that the LG PS8000 had black levels that were equal to that of the G9 Kuro!


Bazzy!
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post #118 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 05:56 PM
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Well, keep in mind that for Samsung this is much than an exercise to get to some absolute black level.
As I've said before and as noted in their powerpoint presentation, they have a more comprehensive approach to improving plasma displays. Black levels are but mere one aspect. As outlined, issues such as improved brightness, efficiency, reduced reflection, etc are other aspects where gains can be made.
This model I believe makes them a better choice because it makes for a better overall display.
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post #119 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 07:46 PM
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But they need/should want to improve their contrast which can be done in two ways....increase maximum brightness and/or decrease black level.
If they are going to keep their pdp's black levels' high they need to ramp up the brightness to add more contrast.
They have their work cut out for them if they want t oreach kuro IQ territory, but they have the money and are willing to take what they want....so here's to hoping they get the whole thing right this year or next.
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post #120 of 2835 Old 02-16-2009, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

But they need/should want to improve their contrast which can be done in two ways....increase maximum brightness and/or decrease black level.
If they are going to keep their pdp's black levels' high they need to ramp up the brightness to add more contrast.
They have their work cut out for them if they want t oreach kuro IQ territory, but they have the money and are willing to take what they want....so here's to hoping they get the whole thing right this year or next.

Again, kuro as much as it's worshipped by some of you was not perfect. It suffered from poor veritical light attenuation. Many experienced blotching and buzzing.
Samsung's goal as outlined is a PDP that excels in many/all areas, not just one narrow aspect, in this case black levels.
That said, the Sammy sets are good in the black level arena for real world viewing despite the blustering of the relatively tiny community here.
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