Best plasma for lowest input lag. Panny(PZ800U or Kuro Elite(111FD) - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 47 Old 01-17-2009, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
VONEMES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello everybody,

Let me start off by introducing myself-- I am a lurker, one of millions who needs the advice of some technically savy A/V individuals.

I have a few questions to ask.

1.) what are the newest plasma models released either at the end of 08, or beginning of 09 which would house to a pro gaming experience?

2.) based on what I have researched on these forums and other sources, the Panny 800U and the Pioneer 111FD have the lowest input lag of any plasma display - is that true? and if so, between the two which has the lowest input lag?

3.) I know the Kuro elite has wonderful color, but I am a gamer.. I only care about having the best gaming experience possible, PQ is second to that. It is clear the Kuro has the best PQ and dark levels on the market of any plasma, but if the response time(input lag) on the Panny is better id like to know from the pros.
VONEMES is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 47 Old 05-01-2009, 12:49 PM
Newbie
 
MrQuestions's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I want to know this too... Why is it so hard to gain this information?

I want < 1 frame of input lag.
MrQuestions is offline  
post #3 of 47 Old 05-01-2009, 01:43 PM
Member
 
gregf70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I do not know how relevant this is, not sure when it was written. But I found this at this site.
----
Gaming Lag in Plasma TVs
Lag. When mentioned alongside gaming, one tends to think "Internet gaming lag", which is different. Let us explain.

Like all other types of HDTVs, plasma TVs have one native resolution, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. The problem is not all games created for today's gas-burning consoles have resolutions as high as these. Most games range from 480p to 720p. Because of this disparity, your plasma TV needs to "upscale" the resolution of the input (namely, the game). This is where lag occurs.

According to the AV Science Forum:

The average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material...Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small...The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games.

To help demystify the problem, IGN called out to its readers to submit feedback on laggy HDTVs. One reader sent in images showing a telling disparity in the Halo 2 game screens, one on a CRT and the other an HDTV (see the article). Though he was using a DLP, the images will impress upon you the severity of lag in some TVs.

Solving LagThere are many options to eliminate lag, but some of them cost a fortune. You can buy products that upscale/convert the resolution from your games (listed quite extensively at the AV Science forum, see the first post at this thread).

For those still looking out for the right plasma TV to complement their gaming needs, try to buy a model with a Game Mode. This feature will speed up the upscaling process, though not completely eliminate the lag.

However, if you're loyal to plasma TVs when it comes to playing games, consider yourself lucky -- DLP TVs are the worst type for gaming due to their higher lag times.
-----
Hope this helps.

-Greg
Follow your bliss!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
gregf70 is offline  
post #4 of 47 Old 05-01-2009, 03:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I have always seen the Kuro's measured at 40-50ms with game/game pref on--certainly nothing spectacular and about on par with most modern LCD's "Game modes". Surprisingly, I have yet to see a serious evaluation of an '08 or '09 Panasonic running the cloned clock tests. They supposedly have a reputation of being the best televisions in this regard, but I have never seen the hard evidence to confirm it. I have seen offhanded remarks about 16-30ms.
Orta is offline  
post #5 of 47 Old 05-01-2009, 03:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf70 View Post

I do not know how relevant this is, not sure when it was written. But I found this at this site.
----
Gaming Lag in Plasma TVs
Lag. When mentioned alongside gaming, one tends to think "Internet gaming lag", which is different. Let us explain.

Like all other types of HDTVs, plasma TVs have one native resolution, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. The problem is not all games created for today's gas-burning consoles have resolutions as high as these. Most games range from 480p to 720p. Because of this disparity, your plasma TV needs to "upscale" the resolution of the input (namely, the game). This is where lag occurs.

According to the AV Science Forum:

The average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material...Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small...The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games.

To help demystify the problem, IGN called out to its readers to submit feedback on laggy HDTVs. One reader sent in images showing a telling disparity in the Halo 2 game screens, one on a CRT and the other an HDTV (see the article). Though he was using a DLP, the images will impress upon you the severity of lag in some TVs.

Solving LagThere are many options to eliminate lag, but some of them cost a fortune. You can buy products that upscale/convert the resolution from your games (listed quite extensively at the AV Science forum, see the first post at this thread).

For those still looking out for the right plasma TV to complement their gaming needs, try to buy a model with a Game Mode. This feature will speed up the upscaling process, though not completely eliminate the lag.

However, if you're loyal to plasma TVs when it comes to playing games, consider yourself lucky -- DLP TVs are the worst type for gaming due to their higher lag times.
-----
Hope this helps.

Not really sure how accurate or relevant most of that information is, it seems to be several years old. Scaling is largely a non-issue now'a days, general image processing and frame interpolation dwarf it.
Orta is offline  
post #6 of 47 Old 05-01-2009, 03:29 PM
Senior Member
 
broketoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 396
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf70 View Post

However, if you're loyal to plasma TVs when it comes to playing games, consider yourself lucky -- DLP TVs are the worst type for gaming due to their higher lag times.
-----
Hope this helps.

My Toshiba DLP doesn't have any lag at all, with Wii and PS3. Didn't hear a single complaint from friends playing games on it too.
broketoo is offline  
post #7 of 47 Old 05-01-2009, 03:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by broketoo View Post

My Toshiba DLP doesn't have any lag at all, with Wii and PS3. Didn't hear a single complaint from friends playing games on it too.

It is a common misconception that stems from the reputation of early Samsung DLP's which were criminally bad. They were literally the poster child for this issue. I have no doubt more contemporary DLP's are at least on par with their like year flat panel brethren.
Orta is offline  
post #8 of 47 Old 05-04-2009, 08:04 AM
Newbie
 
MrQuestions's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What I'm taking away from this is that LCD\\Plasma\\DLP is not ready for hardcore video game playing.

That's kind of sad, really.
MrQuestions is offline  
post #9 of 47 Old 05-04-2009, 08:08 AM
Member
 
Goofoff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
they are just fine for gaming...if you are seriously concerned with a couple ms ...then there is something wrong and its not with the tv.

Chaos is how the world keeps moving along, order just inhibits the innovation it creates.
Goofoff is offline  
post #10 of 47 Old 05-04-2009, 08:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mcjasonb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Hyde Park, NY
Posts: 2,042
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 113
i went from a 1080i crt to a sammy pn58B560 and i see or feel no noticeable lag. if there is lag it's not enough for me to notice at all. i play racing games, shooters, sports games, pretty much everything and have had no problems yet.

Nearfield rig: Laptop -> JDS Labs ODAC -> Emotiva Mini-X -> Pioneer SP-BS22-LR & SW8-mk2Headphone rig: laptop -> JDS Labs ODAC -> Emotiva Mini-X speaker taps -> modded AKG Q701H.T.: PS3 - Yamaha RX-V2500 - Infinity Alpha 50's - Alpha center - Harmon Kardon HKB6 rears, Epik Sentinel
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
mcjasonb is offline  
post #11 of 47 Old 05-04-2009, 09:23 AM
Senior Member
 
heebdawg16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by broketoo View Post

My Toshiba DLP doesn't have any lag at all, with Wii and PS3. Didn't hear a single complaint from friends playing games on it too.

My old Samsung HL-S5687W DLP had absolutely no lag whatsoever, even in music-based games like rockband and guitar hero.
heebdawg16 is offline  
post #12 of 47 Old 05-11-2009, 11:23 PM
Member
 
emmapeel159's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofoff View Post

they are just fine for gaming...if you are seriously concerned with a couple ms ...then there is something wrong and its not with the tv.

You are implying that he should not be concerned with a couple ms difference between what the console is outputting and what the tv is displaying. You are wrong in this.

Depending on the type of game, 50ms can literally kill you (in game of course). I know it does not seem like a significant amount of time but what it means is that a person with less or no lag is going to start reacting quicker to the game then you will. For example on a shooter if you were to both to walk around a corner and see each other, one player would see the other 50ms sooner and start pulling the trigger. While the entire action of seeing someone, reacting, and then gunning them down in the game might take much more time then 50ms in total, it will take both players about the same amount of time. This means that the person who does not have the lag will not only start 50ms earlier more importantly they will END their actions 50ms earlier, which when you are firing bullets at each other means their bullet hits you first causing you to die. If they are moving it could be much worse in that a person with lag will continuosly be shooting behind where the other person actually is. Dont forget that the input (controller) is not suffering from the lag from the TV so you are giving input into a system using visual data that is old.

So the OP's concern for having a low lag is valid. I also share his interest in knowing what the lag is for various TVs and modes. It seems like extremely relavent info seeing as how many people play games these days. While not everyone is going to make this the most critical factor in buying a TV, it would still be nice to be able to factor it in. Especially considering the nuances a lot of posters on this site seem to consider majorly important.
emmapeel159 is offline  
post #13 of 47 Old 05-12-2009, 08:42 AM
Member
 
docmal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 181
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Keep in mind that every person's tolerance is different. Several years back, I was one of the first to discover this issue and study it by doing research. I measured input lag on a lcd monitor vs a crt using an on screen digital clock application. I took many pictures using many different settings.

What led me to do this in the first place was an "unexplainable dissatisfaction" when gaming or even surfing the web on my LCD monitor. Something just didn't feel right after I got my Samsung LCD monitor. The result was that I discovered input lag on the monitor I was using. However, what I also discovered was that there was input lag on every LCD but the amount varied. I also discovered that my tolerance for input lag was right around 40ms. Anything less than that and I did not seem to notice. The samsung I was initially unhappy with was around 60-100ms! Also, the monitor's I have been less effected by have had more consistant lag times as opposed to the samsung which had a larger range.

I have measured my Pio 6070 using Rockband 2's autocalibration feature at right around 40ms.
docmal is offline  
post #14 of 47 Old 05-12-2009, 09:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
joemama127's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofoff View Post

they are just fine for gaming...if you are seriously concerned with a couple ms ...then there is something wrong and its not with the tv.

haha I agree. If it really is that important to you, then you should probably stick to playing on an old CRT or find a new hobby...

"The quickest way to get over your fear of plasma is to actually own *one"- joemama127

*or 3 :)
joemama127 is offline  
post #15 of 47 Old 10-25-2009, 06:30 AM
Member
 
Roderick5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok.....so what plasma? I notice input lag on my lcd when i'm trying to snipe people in Halo 3. It is very annoying. VGA cables helped very little. I want a nice plasma that I can hookup HDMI and not have any input lag at all.
Roderick5 is offline  
post #16 of 47 Old 10-25-2009, 11:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dlplover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama127 View Post

haha I agree. If it really is that important to you, then you should probably stick to playing on an old CRT or find a new hobby...

Yes, no input lag playing real life sports/exercise
dlplover is offline  
post #17 of 47 Old 10-26-2009, 05:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RemoWilliams84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 1,983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 258
You won't find a lcd or plasma above 32-37" that has no lag. I believe sharp makes a small gaming lcd that supposedly has no lag but the picture isn't good and... well it's small.

I have a Panasonic g15 50" and have done lag tests vs a laptop (which I also tested and had not visible lag) with game mode on and off and on all picture settings and consistantly got 25ms tops (sorry, don't have the pictures anymore). It ranged anywhere from 20-25 but usually was 25ms. Coming from an old lcd with 50ms the difference in ryhthm and shooters was noticeable immediately. Just my 2 cents though.

You will be hard pressed to find any big, panel tv these days with a lesser input lag.

Xbox Gamertag/PSN ID: RemoWilliams84

"I started out with nothing, and I still got most of it." -Seasick Steve

RemoWilliams84 is offline  
post #18 of 47 Old 10-26-2009, 12:27 PM
Member
 
NSCTripleAgent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What reason do you say nothing above 37"? I am looking at the big V10s, is there a difference for the larger sized ones?

All display reviewers: TEST INPUT LAG! Gamers want good TVs, too!
NSCTripleAgent is offline  
post #19 of 47 Old 10-26-2009, 12:51 PM
Senior Member
 
TomGreen321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 404
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RemoWilliams84 View Post

You won't find a lcd or plasma above 32-37" that has no lag. I believe sharp makes a small gaming lcd that supposedly has no lag but the picture isn't good and... well it's small.

I have a Panasonic g15 50" and have done lag tests vs a laptop (which I also tested and had not visible lag) with game mode on and off and on all picture settings and consistantly got 25ms tops (sorry, don't have the pictures anymore). It ranged anywhere from 20-25 but usually was 25ms. Coming from an old lcd with 50ms the difference in ryhthm and shooters was noticeable immediately. Just my 2 cents though.

You will be hard pressed to find any big, panel tv these days with a lesser input lag.

Sounds like BS.

Also 25ms is nothing. No ones is ever going to notice that.
TomGreen321 is offline  
post #20 of 47 Old 10-26-2009, 01:49 PM
Member
 
NSCTripleAgent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomGreen321 View Post

Sounds like BS.

Also 25ms is nothing. No ones is ever going to notice that.

That's just a hair over 1 frame. Perfectly acceptable for pro gaming. I am just curious if the the V10 (especially the 65") are the same, but can't find any tests on it.

All display reviewers: TEST INPUT LAG! Gamers want good TVs, too!
NSCTripleAgent is offline  
post #21 of 47 Old 11-03-2009, 12:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RemoWilliams84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 1,983
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 258
I just meant that the only gaming lcd that their is is the sharp. And the largest it comes in in 37".

I'm sure it could be done with larger models, but currently isn't.

And yeah, 25ms doesn't really make a difference to me either. But 50 did. I can't notice any lag with the 25ms.

TomGreen321, you can be an ass if you want. I did my research, stated what I found. Just trying to help someone out that was in the same position as I was.

Xbox Gamertag/PSN ID: RemoWilliams84

"I started out with nothing, and I still got most of it." -Seasick Steve

RemoWilliams84 is offline  
post #22 of 47 Old 11-03-2009, 02:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nicktx27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 28
I'm tired of hearing about people asking about gaming lag. The MLG uses LCD and plasma for their players and many of those players use everything from plasma to LCD to DLP to practice. So clearly lag isn't a concern. As far as I'm concerned if professional gamers use the tech then it should be fine. You're all talking about a minuscule measurement that almost no one will be able to tell.
Nicktx27 is offline  
post #23 of 47 Old 11-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Member
 
lukeman3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post

I'm tired of hearing about people asking about gaming lag. The MLG uses LCD and plasma for their players and many of those players use everything from plasma to LCD to DLP to practice. So clearly lag isn't a concern. As far as I'm concerned if professional gamers use the tech then it should be fine. You're all talking about a minuscule measurement that almost no one will be able to tell.

I was about to ask a question about input lag until I saw this, and now I have to make a statement before I can ask a question.

The MLG does not use plasma, they use LCD's exclusively. In fact, the model they use at events (as of 2008) is the Viewsonic NX2232w. You could not be more wrong in your assessment that "lag isn't a concern" among gamers, and especially the MLG. Unfortunately, as far as you are concerned is not as far as hardcore gamers are concerned, and you don't have the authority to say what's right and wrong for them.

Straight from the horse's mouth of an MLG forum manager, this was taken from a FAQ at mlgpro.com:

What TV's does MLG use at it's events?

2008 TV: Viewsonic NX2232w

* Size: 22"
* Response Time: 5ms
* VGA cable input for video.
* Audio Adapter: 3.5mm STEREO PLUG/RCA JACK x 2 Y-CABLE


Will This TV/Monitor be okay instead?

"Most people play halo on LCD, Plasma or regular CRT (tube) TVs. Others use LCD computer monitors. A widescreen HD CRT is the ideal gaming set because it has the best picture and response time you can get."

"...many of those players use everything from plasma to LCD to DLP to practice." -- Where exactly did you learn that? After having spent hours on the mlgpro.com forums gleaning advice from the people who it matters to most, I can state with confidence that the majority of the people whose posts I read stated that they use either LCD's or CRT's to game. Time and time again, forum regulars at mlgpro.com will suggest using CRT's for no input lag to people who are having problems adjusting to the delay that is present in virtually every HDTV display sans CRT's.

Clearly, lag is a concern, but unfortunately, there's not much that anyone can do about it. CRT's are impractical for the MLG due to their weight and lack of portability. LCD's with low input delay times make the most sense for the MLG; especially considering that everyone at an event is on a level playing ground, a couple milliseconds is an unfortunate but logical sacrifice to make. (see post #19)

However, this doesn't mean that it's the ideal way to play games, it's just how the MLG does it. The ideal way to play games is with NO input delay, like it used to be in the old days. Gaming has become so distorted, especially with the introduction of the "casual gamer" era, but I won't get into that.

Input delay IS a problem, and it needs to be addressed. It is simply unacceptable in nearly all gaming environments. It matters less in games that don't require "twitch-like" movements, such as RPG's and RTS's and the like. Please don't make assumptions on the behalf of people to whom it does matter, because it does.
lukeman3000 is offline  
post #24 of 47 Old 11-03-2009, 04:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nicktx27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Well since no one here is a pro gamer everyone needs to get over lag. I have no issues and many others don't when we play halo cod4 and alike. Don't come off like your an expert I was making broad generalizations.
Nicktx27 is offline  
post #25 of 47 Old 11-03-2009, 10:29 PM
Member
 
lukeman3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post

Well since no one here is a pro gamer everyone needs to get over lag. I have no issues and many others don't when we play halo cod4 and alike. Don't come off like your an expert I was making broad generalizations.

Well, that was much more eloquently put than your first reply.

I am certainly no expert, but I do my fair share of reading and I'm fairly well-educated about this particular issue. I know enough to know that it is an issue among many people, and I was put off a little when I saw you dismiss it so nonchalantly. I wasn't getting technical, I wasn't pulling crap out of thin air either. Everything I said I backed up. That's not being an expert, that's just doing good research and knowing how to embed a couple URL's here and there (highlight text and press button with the earth on it). I am not trying to fool anybody into thinking that I am an "expert" of any sorts -- I was arguing the importance of the issue, not the issue itself. But mainly, I was showing how your argument using the MLG as an example was simply incorrect on many levels. Not to upset you or start a sweet internet fight, but to show others that just because the MLG does something doesn't mean it's the preferred or ideal way to do it. I would think that an AV professional, out of all people, would be able to appreciate something like this.

If this "input lag" phenomenon hasn't been experienced by yourself, or you simply don't have an issue with it.. fine. Why involve yourself in threads where people are genuinely seeking help and advice for dealing with it? So you are tired of hearing about it, good for you. That was certainly helpful, wasn't it? Almost as helpful as "everyone needs to get over lag". Gee, thanks. Next time I need a wholly unhelpful and somewhat demeaning answer to my questions, I'll know where to look.
lukeman3000 is offline  
post #26 of 47 Old 02-17-2010, 04:22 AM
Member
 
trent_bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
One word: FOCUS

Nobody cares if any of you think it's ridiculous to worry about input lag.

Nobody cares if any of you are right or wrong.

Everyone simply wants to know the lag test results for various plasma TV's in order to find out which one is the fastest.

-The End
trent_bob is offline  
post #27 of 47 Old 02-17-2010, 10:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dahlsim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,988
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by trent_bob View Post

One word: FOCUS

Nobody cares if any of you think it's ridiculous to worry about input lag.

Nobody cares if any of you are right or wrong.

Everyone simply wants to know the lag test results for various plasma TV's in order to find out which one is the fastest.

-The End

There is extensive links to posts with testing results for the Kuro Plasmas in this thread HERE and HERE (along with an extended debate on results).

Testing can be a bit tricky at times depending on the model because to get the fastest time you have to make sure you don't mistakenly introduce signal processing to the test that could possibly be avoided.

You may have to check the specific game mode capabilities of your Plasma Model. On the Kuro for instance in some specific cases the Game Pref Mode could be ignored, but if it is engaged many have reported excellent 'CRT like' response time


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Insider thread
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
? R.I.P.
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.
Samuel Johnson 1709-1784, British Author
Dahlsim is offline  
post #28 of 47 Old 02-18-2010, 01:48 AM
Member
 
trent_bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Testing can be a bit tricky at times depending on the model because to get the fastest time you have to make sure you don't mistakenly introduce signal processing to the test that could possibly be avoided.

You may have to check the specific game mode capabilities of your Plasma Model. On the Kuro for instance in some specific cases the Game Pref Mode could be ignored, but if it is engaged many have reported excellent 'CRT like' response time

Thanks for an informative answer. I often times have a hard time finding these posts in the forums.

If it really had CRT like performance I'd be out a lot of money the moment I read that.

The problem is when I read further that the person tested it at 30ms. That's not CRT performance. At least not for me - let me explain.

I gamed forever on a CRT computer monitor. It wasn't a TV. The rockband 2 autotest actually tests my CRT at -3 ms. Yes negative three.

I've been testing a lot of displays.

I bought a TC-42X1 panasonic cause it was said to be 16.5ms(?)

I'm sending it back because it's about 30ms in game mode with everything turned off.

I test panels in dot by dot or full mode with the xbox outputting native resolution. I also turn things off such has 120/240hz or frame creation in the case of plasmas.

Here's my results so far.

Lg LH32 - 30ms
Several samsung lcd's - 50-100ms
Samsung LCD computer monitor 27'' - 14ms
Sharp 40E67U - 15ms
Vizio 47XVT LED VGA - 16ms
Sharp 52E77U - 17ms
Samsung 19'' syncmaster CRT - negative 3ms
Panasonic TC-32ls1 - 14ms

For size the panasonic 32'' IPS panel is the fastest at 14ms.
Impressive that it tied my 27'' LCD computer monitor.

I tested a Samsung Plasma (B550 50'') to have about 80ms normal and around 50ms in game mode.

I took my gear to Sears a couple days ago and got a few of these results and I tested some other various LCD's like sony's at around 70ms.

For some people 30 is fine. For me it's terrible.

The only big screen I've been able to do well on is the Vizio because it has very little motion blur, about 1 frame (16-17ms) input lag and the picture quality is decent in game mode.

So if someone can confirm a Kuro that has CRT-like performance (-3 to 12ms) then I'm in. I definitely prefer the motion resolution and well.. everything else about a plasma to an LCD. I'm sadly sending back the panasonic I just got. I don't want to because its so nice after looking at all these LCD's.

One last thing: FYI the Sony XBR7 52'' model has less than 10ms from what I understand. Not sure on the 40'' model as it uses a different 120hz panel.
trent_bob is offline  
post #29 of 47 Old 02-18-2010, 06:44 AM
Member
 
motoracer51's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by trent_bob View Post

Thanks for an informative answer. I often times have a hard time finding these posts in the forums.

If it really had CRT like performance I'd be out a lot of money the moment I read that.

The problem is when I read further that the person tested it at 30ms. That's not CRT performance. At least not for me - let me explain.

I gamed forever on a CRT computer monitor. It wasn't a TV. The rockband 2 autotest actually tests my CRT at -3 ms. Yes negative three.

I've been testing a lot of displays.

I bought a TC-42X1 panasonic cause it was said to be 16.5ms(?)

I'm sending it back because it's about 30ms in game mode with everything turned off.

I test panels in dot by dot or full mode with the xbox outputting native resolution. I also turn things off such has 120/240hz or frame creation in the case of plasmas.

Here's my results so far.

Lg LH32 - 30ms
Several samsung lcd's - 50-100ms
Samsung LCD computer monitor 27'' - 14ms
Sharp 40E67U - 15ms
Vizio 47XVT LED VGA - 16ms
Sharp 52E77U - 17ms
Samsung 19'' syncmaster CRT - negative 3ms
Panasonic TC-32ls1 - 14ms

For size the panasonic 32'' IPS panel is the fastest at 14ms.
Impressive that it tied my 27'' LCD computer monitor.

I tested a Samsung Plasma (B550 50'') to have about 80ms normal and around 50ms in game mode.

I took my gear to Sears a couple days ago and got a few of these results and I tested some other various LCD's like sony's at around 70ms.

For some people 30 is fine. For me it's terrible.

The only big screen I've been able to do well on is the Vizio because it has very little motion blur, about 1 frame (16-17ms) input lag and the picture quality is decent in game mode.

So if someone can confirm a Kuro that has CRT-like performance (-3 to 12ms) then I'm in. I definitely prefer the motion resolution and well.. everything else about a plasma to an LCD. I'm sadly sending back the panasonic I just got. I don't want to because its so nice after looking at all these LCD's.

One last thing: FYI the Sony XBR7 52'' model has less than 10ms from what I understand. Not sure on the 40'' model as it uses a different 120hz panel.

Did you happen to test the larger 55" Vizio XVT or LG 55" LH90?

I'm considering these two sets as my current Samsung plasma is garbage, and I'm waiting for my money to be returned.

You know the issues with Panasonic and Samsung, so I'm looking elsewhere.....

Thanks for the numbers. They are important to some people ( I play a lot of Modern Warfare 2 online ) and I need a low lag set to offset my laggy DSL to get me somewhat competitive.
motoracer51 is offline  
post #30 of 47 Old 02-18-2010, 08:24 AM
Member
 
datrumole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
First off, in response to the main post, i'd have to say, if you are choosing between the 800u and the 111, i would look at the xx20 Kuros. They are the same panel as the Elites, just without the extra bit of color controls within the service menu (all you are able to calibrate is the grayscale on the xx20's). For any TV owner (videophile or not), the Kuro is the cream of the crop...period. so if a Kuro is in your budget, there should be no other questions needed answering. After owning one, i dont care what TV you look at, they will all bow down to the KURO. I will use a quote from Kill bill if i may "If you're gonna compare a Hanzo sword, you compare it to every other sword ever made... that wasn't made by Hattori Hanzo". Also, i cannot STAND LCD motion blur....ugh...gross

I own a 5020, and i game heavily on this panel. I am an expert level GH player and avid Halo COD2 player. With gamepref on, i measure 0ms on the manual GH calibration. And i never lose a knife/gun butt match in COD/Halo online. I feel this is due to the fact that people are playing on sets and do not know they have a serious amount of lag, whereas i do not. I've attempted to game at friends houses playing GH to 'show off my skills' (aka my friends think i'm god because i can beat even the easiest songs on expert...dont have many gaming friends...ha) and i look like a loser because their LCD has 40+ lag in the manual calibration and i lose. I cannot confirm though in comparison to the Pannys, but Kuro = no lag = ahhhh (sigh of relief)


In response to the person who brought up what the MLG uses. I'm not sure if you attempting to defend the fact that they use LCD and not plasma, but here are a few of my thoughts:

1) PLASMA isnt mass produced under the size of 40", i hightly doubt they are going to spring for a couple thousand 40" screens on top of the fact that who the hell wants to set that up. and where are they going to find the space for all that, god forbid on broke or some psycho gamer threw a controller through it....

2) Viewsonic was probably the winner of the contract....aka they gave them the cheapest price on this particular model than any other bidders. so the fact that they use them doesn't mean they are the perfect monitor to use, just means they were the cheapest

3) if everyone is using the same monitor, than the fact the panel has lag is completely MOOT....every one would be experiencing the same level of lag
datrumole is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off