How common is "dirty screen effect" for current Pioneer 9G Owners? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-07-2009, 11:25 AM
 
apark5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I see DSE on my Elite PRO-151FD on light color backgrounds and more specifically on panning scenes. If you want to test your TV perfect way to confirm DSE is to watch HGTV, they have tons and tons of panning scenes with lighter backgrounds (white, off white, light cream, light yellow, etc...)

To answer @bsavitz's question: Yes I used the microfiber cloth that came with TV, first used another clean soft microfiber cloth and wiped the dust then, basically soaked Pioneer microfiber cloth in CVS branded distilled water, turned off TV completely (not just standby) and waited about 12-15 minutes to for the panel to cool down and wiped the first half of screen. Then I soaked the Pioneer microfiber again in clean distilled water and wiped rest of the screen. Waited about 15-20 minutes to let it dry and turned on HGTV and see no difference. Next morning I cleaned the Pioneer microfiber cloth with hand soap and completely dried the cloth. And at night I rinsed the cloth in distilled water and repeated the whole process but I see no difference at all.
apark5 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-07-2009, 12:36 PM
Member
 
WIZARD8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Your post is very discouraging, apark5.

BTW, apark5, I viewed 2 50" Elite demo models in 2 different stores (had the rep play the break-in disc through it) and they were both free of "dirty screen effect."

I probably will still try to wash my 5020 myself before returning it, the sales rep told me he will try to find me another 5020 at another store and have it shipped locally, but he said they may already be gone and they will not be getting any more in after that.

Honestly, Pioneer is so full of BS. I called them and the rep said, "dirty screen effect? Never heard of that." Then when I explained it to him and told him I would try to wash the screen, he said not to bother, as the problem is likely due to uneven application of the AR filter, like he really had heard of the problem before but didn't want to admit it. He also said there is no fix to it.

The problem is, the tv is amazing, black levels and everything else IMO blows away the nearest competitor (Panasonic 800 or 850 series), it would be the perfect tv for me except they had to screw up the filter. If I had to swap out for another model, it would definately be a downgrade.

I'm waiting to see what the new Panny G10 is going to be like, if it's not much of a noticable difference I may just swap out for one of those, depending on the cost. At least Panasonic's customer service will be better.

I wonder, is there anything a bunch of us new Pioneer owners can do if we get together against Pioneer on this?
WIZARD8888 is offline  
Old 03-07-2009, 04:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
corpfan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 965
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Could be dirt on the inside of the panel - no?

Really sucks that so many are getting this.
corpfan1 is offline  
Old 03-07-2009, 07:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
simplemath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
has anyone been able to capture this "effect" in a picture to post? It would be nice to be able to see and then know what it looks like.
simplemath is offline  
Old 03-07-2009, 08:04 PM
Member
 
WIZARD8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath View Post

has anyone been able to capture this "effect" in a picture to post? It would be nice to be able to see and then know what it looks like.

I attempted to take a pic of the streaking in the colors of the break-in disc but I found it impossible to capture with my camera, everything is crushed into a solid color.

In person, it is quite noticable during regular tv viewing when the camera pans vertically over any solid color.


I ask again, is there anything a bunch of us new Pioneer owners can do if we get together against Pioneer on this? I would really like another 5020, but not if it has the same problem.
WIZARD8888 is offline  
Old 03-08-2009, 07:48 AM
 
apark5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIZARD8888 View Post

I attempted to take a pic of the streaking in the colors of the break-in disc but I found it impossible to capture with my camera, everything is crushed into a solid color.

In person, it is quite noticable during regular tv viewing when the camera pans vertically over any solid color.


I ask again, is there anything a bunch of us new Pioneer owners can do if we get together against Pioneer on this? I would really like another 5020, but not if it has the same problem.

@WIZARD88888: I sent you pm.
apark5 is offline  
Old 03-08-2009, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
YOTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Buy locally. That is the solution to your problem.


I see the thread has gained steam lately . First off as a few other posters have stated, this dirty screen effect has been an issue since the original 8G sets. I had a 4280 with it. It was very noticeable and distracting so I sold it after about a year for the 5080. My 5080 had a very small case of it that you only noticed if you looked for it. I have a small amount of dirty screen effect on my 5020 (probably a little bit more than the 5080), but I honestly have to focus and look for it in when I am watching. At first I was mad but honestly the picture destroys anything else out there that you can buy. Yes it is frustrating you have to deal with it or buzzing or blotchy black levels at the beginning. Trust me, I tried out probably 7 LCD's before I went to Pioneer. I would take a little dirty screen effect any day over uneven black levels, gray black levels, bright over-saturated colors, flashlighting, and the famous "cloud" issue (if you have owned an LCD, specifically Sony/Samsung, you know what I mean )

As for Pioneer fixing it, don't ask. They won't do it. I had them out when I had my 4280 and they basically said it was normal. Should it be there? No. Should the screen be perfect? Yes, but what tv is to be honest. We just have to choose a set that has as few issues as possible that we can live with. I guess again though that I am a little more tolerable of it because of the horror that is LCD..........lol.
YOTR is offline  
Old 03-08-2009, 09:11 AM
Member
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I got a pixel perfect 5020 and barely notice the dirty screen effect. It is way subtle. The buzzing perceptually registers as a slight tape hiss with the volume on the low end. I open the window and there is enough white noise to distract me from registering the buzz with no sound playing, though if I look for it I will immediately notice it.
carlitos is offline  
Old 03-08-2009, 12:00 PM
Newbie
 
GianChaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

...honestly have to focus and look for it in when I am watching...

Got my 5020 a few days ago and have to look hard for evidence of this.
Using the Video Pattern in the Options Menu, I've looked for it as the white bar travels across the screen.
What I see in just a couple of areas: a thin cloud-like image.
I had this type of image on a Direct View 36" Sony. On that, it looked like dirt behind the glass. On the 5020, it's less noticeable and in no obvious way affects the picture.
I ordered a pack of micro-fiber cloths and will clean per instructions, I read somewhere on this board, using three wipes. Then we'll see see if the clouds dissipate.

Fortunately, there's no loud buzzing, either.

I am loving this 5020 and am thankful I have no issues where I want to return/exchange this. I say thankfully because I interviewed a lot of units before choosing the 5020.
GianChaz is offline  
Old 03-08-2009, 04:03 PM
 
apark5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If dirty screen effect-DSE goes away after several hundred hours of panel aging, is running some sort of pixel exerciser would help?

I am on my 2nd PRO-151FD, 1st set had to go back due to a flashy green light about 3-pixel size long/wide bleeding through the panel. On my first panel I initially thought that it was a bad/stuck pixel and ran jscreenfix and other kinds of pixel exercisers for good 30-40 hours and as far as I can remember I did not see any dirty screen effect.
apark5 is offline  
Old 03-08-2009, 05:48 PM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

I see the thread has gained steam lately . First off as a few other posters have stated, this dirty screen effect has been an issue since the original 8G sets. I had a 4280 with it. It was very noticeable and distracting so I sold it after about a year for the 5080. My 5080 had a very small case of it that you only noticed if you looked for it. I have a small amount of dirty screen effect on my 5020 (probably a little bit more than the 5080), but I honestly have to focus and look for it in when I am watching. At first I was mad but honestly the picture destroys anything else out there that you can buy. Yes it is frustrating you have to deal with it or buzzing or blotchy black levels at the beginning. Trust me, I tried out probably 7 LCD's before I went to Pioneer. I would take a little dirty screen effect any day over uneven black levels, gray black levels, bright over-saturated colors, flashlighting, and the famous "cloud" issue (if you have owned an LCD, specifically Sony/Samsung, you know what I mean )

As for Pioneer fixing it, don't ask. They won't do it. I had them out when I had my 4280 and they basically said it was normal. Should it be there? No. Should the screen be perfect? Yes, but what tv is to be honest. We just have to choose a set that has as few issues as possible that we can live with. I guess again though that I am a little more tolerable of it because of the horror that is LCD..........lol.

Well part of your problem is your perception. I don't think the Pioneer destroys everything out there, neither do most scientifically inclined display technology experts.

Because of your perception, which I think is flawed, because it has more to do with emotion than logic or reason, you backed yourself into purchasing corner, you've forced yourself to maintain a problem plagued Kuro instead of going to another brand more reliable brand.
Auditor55 is offline  
Old 03-08-2009, 08:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
saprano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bronx NY
Posts: 3,457
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 275
I really dont need to be hearing about this DSE. im planning on getting the 151 in a few months, is it really that bad? actually i think i've seen this at BB on a 60" elite. the whites seemed dirty, is this what everybodys talking about?

home theater addict
saprano is online now  
Old 03-08-2009, 10:12 PM
Member
 
Plasmachick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I really dont need to be hearing about this DSE. im planning on getting the 151 in a few months, is it really that bad? actually i think i've seen this at BB on a 60" elite. the whites seemed dirty, is this what everybodys talking about?

I think everybody is talking about different things. Cant pinpoint a single description of it. Hopefully, somebody will post a pic. If you don't like what you see in the store then why buy it? Just curious.
Plasmachick is offline  
Old 03-08-2009, 10:13 PM
Member
 
Plasmachick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Well part of your problem is your perception. I don't think the Pioneer destroys everything out there, neither do most scientifically inclined display technology experts.

Because of your perception, which I think is flawed, because it has more to do with emotion than logic or reason, you backed yourself into purchasing corner, you've forced yourself to maintain a problem plagued Kuro instead of going to another brand more reliable brand.

What's a more reliable brand? They all have issues.
Plasmachick is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 08:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIZARD8888 View Post

Honestly, Pioneer is so full of BS. I called them and the rep said, "dirty screen effect? Never heard of that." Then when I explained it to him and told him I would try to wash the screen, he said not to bother, as the problem is likely due to uneven application of the AR filter, like he really had heard of the problem before but didn't want to admit it. He also said there is no fix to it.

You might have gotten the same rep that I spoke to on Friday, I explained my problem to him with a good bit of detail. (and even said it looked like an uneven AR filter) so he might have just been repeating me.

(Or I could be just grasping at straws here....)

PSN - Pendragoongp
NNID - Pendragoon
Include your AVS username in the friend request.
PENDRAG0ON is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 11:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 558
Well I spoke to a Pioneer certified tech, and he said that both my buzzing and dirty screen effect were being caused by a cracked panel and that it isn't covered by their warranty. (the cracked panel warps the AG screen and causes the streaks and smudges that we see, and also causes the buzz to be much louder as well)

Since Amazon is out of stock on the 5020, I'll be switching brands and taking a step back.

Now then, just what should I do.....

PSN - Pendragoongp
NNID - Pendragoon
Include your AVS username in the friend request.
PENDRAG0ON is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 02:02 PM
Member
 
WIZARD8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Well I spoke to a Pioneer certified tech, and he said that both my buzzing and dirty screen effect were being caused by a cracked panel and that it isn't covered by their warranty.

Why the hell would a cracked panel not be covered under warranty?!?!
WIZARD8888 is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 02:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIZARD8888 View Post

Why the hell would a cracked panel not be covered under warranty?!?!

Shipping Damages, it is the shipping companies problem, not theirs.

PSN - Pendragoongp
NNID - Pendragoon
Include your AVS username in the friend request.
PENDRAG0ON is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 02:11 PM
Member
 
toca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 46
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Shipping Damages, it is the shipping companies problem, not theirs.

Not sure they can prove when it was damaged. Who's to say it wasn't cracked when Pioneer shipped it to the Amazon dealer?
toca is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 02:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by toca View Post

Not sure they can prove when it was damaged. Who's to say it wasn't cracked when Pioneer shipped it to the Amazon dealer?

Exactly. Nobody can prove it either way, so I couldn't get anywhere from that point. So he advised that I return it. (and Amazon is out of Kuros which equals me needing a new TV)

I'm leaning toward a Samsung LCD thanks to my liking to leave the lights on when I watch TV.

PSN - Pendragoongp
NNID - Pendragoon
Include your AVS username in the friend request.
PENDRAG0ON is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 02:55 PM
Member
 
WIZARD8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by apark5 View Post

If dirty screen effect-DSE goes away after several hundred hours of panel aging, is running some sort of pixel exerciser would help?

"Dirty screen effect" is a term that seems to be used for a few different anomalies.
From what I've read, what you've described pretty much matches what I am experiencing: when I play a solid color from the break-in disc, it is streaky; during regular programming I can see horizontal (for the most part) smudges or lines when the camera pans vertically (and diagonally somewhat) over a solid color background.
I feel it is caused by uneven application of the AR filter because when the tv is off and sunlight shines on it, I can see there are lighter and darker streaks on the panel which match the patterns I see when the tv is on.

I don't think panel aging would help our situation. It seems the term "dirty screen effect" has been used to also describe the blotchiness caused by uneven pixel wear, but to the best of my knowledge, this is not what causes the streaking and lines on a solid color, rather it causes the blotchiness seen on an all black screen. It would seem this is a condition which improves over time when the pixels are broken in. The blotchiness in the blacks does not bother me, the DSE during panning shots on a solid color does.
WIZARD8888 is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 03:31 PM
 
apark5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
@WIZARD88888:

I have my replacement PRO-151FD for about 24 days and this DSE is bothering me because it is pretty obvious and very noticable in regular viewing. for any replacement i know i have to deal with Pioneer directly, do you think it is worth the effort? i mean i know i can get refund for purchase price with help of my credit card company and my useless dealer would have to deal with Pioneer for his money, but are you pretty positive about uneven AR filter? I havent contacted Pioneer yet but can do that tonight.
apark5 is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 03:44 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
bfdtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 13,484
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by apark5 View Post

I see DSE on my Elite PRO-151FD on light color backgrounds and more specifically on panning scenes. If you want to test your TV perfect way to confirm DSE is to watch HGTV, they have tons and tons of panning scenes with lighter backgrounds (white, off white, light cream, light yellow, etc...)

I would be wary of using HGTV for anything.

HGTV is one of the most heavily [over]compressed channels on cable and satellite. You will see all sorts of artifacting with pans on that channel, regardless of the TV you've got.

It sounds to me like some people in this thread are confusing compression artifacts and/or interlace artifacts with "DSE."
bfdtv is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 05:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
xrox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
DSE and panel buzz are both issues that Pioneer considers normal with regards to the customer but behind the scenes considers a defect and was trying to resolve before dropping out.

I've always thought the DSE was caused by non-uniform application of the AR coating and here is some evidence to support this. From Pioneer patent applications during the KURO years:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer Corporation View Post

The present invention provides an antireflection film satisfying the reduction of reflection, causing less change in the reflected color due to fluctuation in the thickness of each layer of the antireflection film, and enabling to enhance the productivity by decreasing the difference in reflected color among finished products or hardly allowing the coating unevenness or streak to be perceived. The present invention further provides an antireflection film assured of good neutral property and less projection of outside light.

Or possibly just uneven pixel manufacturing (macro-defect)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer Corporation View Post

When the discharge cells cannot be uniformly formed over the panel surface as a consequence of this, the image displayed on the screen is uneven


Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
xrox is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 05:03 PM
Member
 
mittene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath View Post

has anyone been able to capture this "effect" in a picture to post? It would be nice to be able to see and then know what it looks like.

I was able to find an exaggerated "artist's rendition" of dirty screen effect that I had remembered seeing on avforums.com a while back. My screen is not nearly as bad as this rendition shows, as the streaks on my set show up as much more faint grayish color. But the vertical pattern, width and spacing between the streaks is similar. My streaks don't appear to be as crooked either - they most resemble the streak on the far right in this regard.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/attac...ap-picture.jpg
mittene is offline  
Old 03-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Member
 
WIZARD8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
PM sent, apark5.

Mittene, that doesn't really look anything like the problem on my tv.
WIZARD8888 is offline  
Old 03-10-2009, 06:39 AM
Senior Member
 
bsavitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
What a shame. Even though I didn't want to spend that much, I'd be willing to step up to the Pro-111FD if the Elite models didn't have the same issues, but it seems that they do. I guess I need to give up the thought of ever owning a Kuro. Very disappointing.
Waiting to see the new Panasonics now.
bsavitz is offline  
Old 03-10-2009, 07:05 AM
Advanced Member
 
glum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pale Blue Dot
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by apark5 View Post

If dirty screen effect-DSE goes away after several hundred hours of panel aging...

it does not go away with age.
glum is offline  
Old 03-10-2009, 09:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIZARD8888 View Post

I attempted to take a pic of the streaking in the colors of the break-in disc but I found it impossible to capture with my camera, everything is crushed into a solid color.

In person, it is quite noticable during regular tv viewing when the camera pans vertically over any solid color.


I ask again, is there anything a bunch of us new Pioneer owners can do if we get together against Pioneer on this? I would really like another 5020, but not if it has the same problem.


I'll say it again for those who didn't read my post....this has been an issue for nearly two years ever since the 8g Kuro's were released, this is not a new 9g issue.
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
Old 03-10-2009, 09:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsavitz View Post

What a shame. Even though I didn't want to spend that much, I'd be willing to step up to the Pro-111FD if the Elite models didn't have the same issues, but it seems that they do. I guess I need to give up the thought of ever owning a Kuro. Very disappointing.
Waiting to see the new Panasonics now.

With which you will encounter other issues and an inferior IQ.
Nothing is perfect.
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
 

Tags
Pioneer Pdp 5080 Hd , Pioneer Pdp 5020fd 50 Inch 1080p Kuro Plasma Hdtv
Gear in this thread - 5020fd by PriceGrabber.com
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off