How common is "dirty screen effect" for current Pioneer 9G Owners? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 455 Old 03-10-2009, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bsavitz View Post

What a shame. Even though I didn't want to spend that much, I'd be willing to step up to the Pro-111FD if the Elite models didn't have the same issues, but it seems that they do. I guess I need to give up the thought of ever owning a Kuro. Very disappointing.
Waiting to see the new Panasonics now.


Cleveland Plasma has a picture posted on the new Panasonic thread and tomorrow will have a calibration done. Blacks look great, and I will be waiting for the review.
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post #92 of 455 Old 03-10-2009, 12:58 PM
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I stopped by Best Buy today. They had a panasonic S1 on display right next to a 5020. The 5020 blew it away but the S1 still looked pretty decent. The main problem was the color, which had a very warm, yellow cast to it but I would assume that could be adjusted. If not, the G10 may fare better with the THX certification. Overall I'm encouraged by what I saw and look forward to the G10.
On the other hand, the Pioneers looked so darn good, even in Best Buy. This Best Buy has a Magnolia store and they also had some Elites on display there. I looked at those as well as the 5020 for quite awhile trying to see the dirty screen effect. I actually did see it, on all of them, but it was barely noticeable to me. If I wasn't trying to see it I don't think I would have noticed it at all. If it is never worse than what I saw, I could easily live with it. So, I'm still undecided. I think it will all depend on what the G10 looks like.
Does anyone know if Best Buy will hook up a TV and let you view it before you leave the store with it? I kind of doubt it but maybe I'll ask.
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post #93 of 455 Old 03-11-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Well I spoke to a Pioneer certified tech, and he said that both my buzzing and dirty screen effect were being caused by a cracked panel and that it isn't covered by their warranty. (the cracked panel warps the AG screen and causes the streaks and smudges that we see, and also causes the buzz to be much louder as well)

I'm PMing you on this too, can you please tell me which location/who the tech was you spoke with regarding this, and also let me know what characteristics led the tech to determine it was caused by a cracked panel, as opposed to an improperly applied AR coating, etc.? Thanks.
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post #94 of 455 Old 03-12-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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If this is indeed an uneven application of AR coating then can I use rubbing alcohol to scrape off the AR coating

Just kidding, anyway I called Pioneer Warranty Service and was told to call the local repair center to schedule a tech. I was surprised, that they told me to contact local authorized repair center instead opening a case, because last time I called they created a case and local Pioneer field engineer called me to schedule a time with a tech from authorized repair facility. Anyway once I schedule local tech and inspection is done, will post the outcome here.
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post #95 of 455 Old 03-12-2009, 08:55 PM
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Cool, apark5, I'm interested in hearing the results.



I wonder if uneven patches of luminance (the blotchiness we see on a black screen) may also contribute to the DSE, this combined with the uneven application of the AR filter may be making the effect more pronounced.
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post #96 of 455 Old 03-16-2009, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Well part of your problem is your perception. I don't think the Pioneer destroys everything out there, neither do most scientifically inclined display technology experts.

Because of your perception, which I think is flawed, because it has more to do with emotion than logic or reason, you backed yourself into purchasing corner, you've forced yourself to maintain a problem plagued Kuro instead of going to another brand more reliable brand.


LOL, are you serious or is this a joke post?

Do you own a pioneer (I didn't bother looking at your history)? Have you every compared one next to the other brands? I went through 6 LCD's before I realized they were completely inferior to the Panasonic/Pioneer plasmas (I also have a Panasonic one which I love). I may be a little more picky than you when it comes to displays but honestly the Pioneer has been the most trouble-free set I have ever owned. I will take a little dirty screen any day over flashlights, cloud issues, banding, blurring, and grey black levels from a LCD.

By the way, what brand is more reliable? Sony? You can have your clouds and horrible black levels. Panasonic? Good plasma but has plenty of little bugs. Samsung? Good luck with those HDMI sync/Cloud issues on those sets. I guess the point is every set has there issues (even Pioneer) and you as a consumer has to find the one you can live with. Sorry if I seem a little defensive but your comments seemed to be on the rude side. My perception isn't flawed. If you think that, then I guess the hundreds of people in this forum that own a Pioneer product and love it are also flawed.

I chose Pioneer because an an avid gamer and movie watcher, it gives me the best picture. As I stated I went through many sets before the Pioneer so believe me I didn't back myself in a corner when I purchased it.
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post #97 of 455 Old 03-16-2009, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Well I spoke to a Pioneer certified tech, and he said that both my buzzing and dirty screen effect were being caused by a cracked panel and that it isn't covered by their warranty. (the cracked panel warps the AG screen and causes the streaks and smudges that we see, and also causes the buzz to be much louder as well)

Since Amazon is out of stock on the 5020, I'll be switching brands and taking a step back.

Now then, just what should I do.....

I'm calling bull on your tech's diagnosis. A cracked screen doesn't cause dirty screen effect as far as I know (buzzing I can't comment on as all of the Pioneer's that I have owned had it to a certain degree). Every one of my Pioneer's had dirty screen effect to a certain degree (had 3 of them) so I highly doubt I got 3 sets with cracked screens. Also any time I have gone to best buy or another B&M store, their Pioneer display units either have a little dirty screen effect or quite a bit. I do know that Pioneer will not fix the dirty screen effect regardless so maybe he was just telling you something in hopes you would just return it to the store. I haven't read your previous posts but how bad is your dirty screen effect? Do you see it on horizontal/vertical scans?
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post #98 of 455 Old 03-16-2009, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

I'm calling bull on your tech's diagnosis. A cracked screen doesn't cause dirty screen effect as far as I know (buzzing I can't comment on as all of the Pioneer's that I have owned had it to a certain degree). Every one of my Pioneer's had it to a certain degree (had 3 of them) so I highly doubt I got 3 sets with cracked screens. Also any time I have gone to best buy or another B&M store, their Pioneer display units either have a little dirty screen effect or quite a bit. I do know that Pioneer will not fix the dirty screen effect regardless so maybe he was just telling you something in hopes you would just return it to the store. I haven't read your previous posts but how bad is your dirty screen effect? Do you see it on horizontal/vertical scans?

I called bull on it as well, buzz could easily have been a cracked panel. (it was really bad and really loud, power save 2 was the only way to make it bearable, but it was still annoying) My Dirty screen effect was also very bad (visible on anything with lighter colors, such as a sky) and killed far too many of my favorite shows and games. I am back on the market looking for a new TV and I am finding nothing that compares to the Pioneer. It has been very disheartening finally finding a TV that I actually felt had a good Picture that I could live with happily only to have these two major issues kill it for me. (and with Amazon not having anymore, a return was my only option)

As for Auditor55, he *claims* to own a Kuro but has offered no proof at all, and in the past has been a major basher of the Kuro's and plasma tech in general, so until he posts some proof that he actually owns one, it is best to ignore anything that he says about the Kuro.

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post #99 of 455 Old 03-16-2009, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I called bull on it as well, buzz could easily have been a cracked panel. (it was really bad and really loud, power save 2 was the only way to make it bearable, but it was still annoying) My Dirty screen effect was also very bad (visible on anything with lighter colors, such as a sky) and killed far too many of my favorite shows and games. I am back on the market looking for a new TV and I am finding nothing that compares to the Pioneer. It has been very disheartening finally finding a TV that I actually felt had a good Picture that I could live with happily only to have these two major issues kill it for me. (and with Amazon not having anymore, a return was my only option)

As for Auditor55, he *claims* to own a Kuro but has offered no proof at all, and in the past has been a major basher of the Kuro's and plasma tech in general, so until he posts some proof that he actually owns one, it is best to ignore anything that he says about the Kuro.

I have heard of certain Pioneer sets having a loud buzz so I definitely believe you. My 4280 was somewhat loud but my 5080 and 5020 are barely noticeable. I don't know what you payed for it but some of the forum sponsors probably have it for the same or less than what you payed from Amazon. Most allow a 15 day return policy also. I went through the same thing as you and realized I would accept a few flaws as every set has them. It's what you can deal with at the end of the day. Should Pioneer fix the issues? Yes. Are they normal? For Pioneer yes but they should of fixed it. My dirty screen is only noticeable whenever the screen pans up or down with light colors. I would say it is a light case of dirty screen effect. It's hard once you see it to not focus on it, especially if you have a bad case. It bugged me at first but I have grown accustomed to it. I don't find myself looking for it anymore so it isn't a big issue (of course mine is a light case where as you had a very bad set. My 4280 was horrible with vertical panning scenes where as my 5080 had very little if any DSE. I would say don't give up yet. Maybe you could try another store or retailer? One thing to realize though is that every Pioneer has it to a certain extent (I have checked 10 Pioneer sets counting mine and they all had it from very bad to almost non-existent). I have seen very very light cases of it where certain people will see it while others don't.

Like you I wanted the best set and went through to many sets to remember. Each had their own issues and I had to decide what I could live with. I couldn't live with cloudy screens, flashlights, or grey black levels. Unfortunately I have to deal with a few issues with the Pioneer but I get an image that I am very happy with.


Thank for the advice on Auditor55 by the way .
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post #100 of 455 Old 03-16-2009, 12:09 PM
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Aside from the dirty screen effect, my 5020 is the best tv I have ever seen next to the Elite. I originally went in to purchase a Panny PZ800, but the sales rep cut me a huge deal on the 5020 and for just about $250 more than the PZ800 he told me I was crazy not to take it. He was right, so I took it. With the DSE problem on the 5020 he told me I could swap it out for the PZ800 but I can't bring myself to doing that. I went back in and looked at the PZ800 and it is inferior (though the next best tv to the 5020 at this time). When I first started my tv search, I looked at various LCD, plasmas, etc. and I remember being wowed in the beginning by the Samsung and LG plasmas. After having the 5020 for over a month now, I popped into a store and they were playing Hellboy II on blu-ray through the top of the line LG plasma, and it looked like crap compared to how the movie looks on my 5020, no comparison whatsover, the 5020 blows it out of the water.

That said, the only tv I would consider swapping it out for would be the new Panny TC-P50V10, I am waiting for reviews and comparisons to the 5020 once it is released. PENDRAG0ON, if you can't get another Pioneer, the TC-P50V10 is the one I would suggest you look at when it is released in May.
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post #101 of 455 Old 03-16-2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WIZARD8888 View Post

That said, the only tv I would consider swapping it out for would be the new Panny TC-P50V10, I am waiting for reviews and comparisons to the 5020 once it is released. PENDRAG0ON, if you can't get another Pioneer, the TC-P50V10 is the one I would suggest you look at when it is released in May.

I can't wait that long to get another TV, it has been hard enough since I had to pack up the 5020 last Wendsday (waiting for my card to get credited before I can get another set) I might just grab a cheap 40 inch set and wait for the new 58inch models from Panasonic, or I might grab a S or G 50inch this weekend, or I might even grab a Samsung LCD, I just don't know what to do at this point.

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post #102 of 455 Old 03-16-2009, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I called bull on it as well, buzz could easily have been a cracked panel. (it was really bad and really loud, power save 2 was the only way to make it bearable, but it was still annoying) My Dirty screen effect was also very bad (visible on anything with lighter colors, such as a sky) and killed far too many of my favorite shows and games. I am back on the market looking for a new TV and I am finding nothing that compares to the Pioneer. It has been very disheartening finally finding a TV that I actually felt had a good Picture that I could live with happily only to have these two major issues kill it for me. (and with Amazon not having anymore, a return was my only option)

As for Auditor55, he *claims* to own a Kuro but has offered no proof at all, and in the past has been a major basher of the Kuro's and plasma tech in general, so until he posts some proof that he actually owns one, it is best to ignore anything that he says about the Kuro.

My 111FD that was delivered Saturday has what I guess you could call a "dirty screen" effect. However, it is extremely light and doesn't jump out at you like it did on my Sharp D62 and D92 LCD sets. It's something I have to stare at the screen to see. Since I just started my 30 day return window I have more time to see if it's a deal killer. My 52A650 Sammy isn't 100% uniform either so I do realize nothings perfect. It's just finding a set where the positives out weight the flaws.

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post #103 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 06:37 AM
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I am seeing the dirty screen effect on my 09/2008 build-date 5020FD as well. It is like everyone is saying, you can notice it on light colors and panning scenes. The other bad thing is that I also see flicker along with the dirty screen effect, LOL. I am not impressed by Kuro overall. It has good image quality, but the other details that come into play to round out the overall package are not as strong.

I dread having to go to LCD and deal with clouds and flashlights...
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post #104 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 07:03 AM
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I hate to ask again, but what does this dirty screen effect look like? I've read every page here and there is still not a decent description of it, yet many are claiming to have it. Not doubting that it exists, just find it odd that nobody can definitively describe it.

Is it as if parts of the screen were covered in grease causing parts to be hazy/blurry?

Is it a matter of clearness/fuzziness in the picture or just uneveness in the color, which I believe is the blotching problem that should go away after burn-in.

I just got a 5020 and don't notice anything abnormal during bright scenes, pans, etc. I do notice some uneveness in the screen which has been lessening with more hours on the set.
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post #105 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asap200x View Post

I hate to ask again, but what does this dirty screen effect look like? I've read every page here and there is still not a decent description of it, yet many are claiming to have it. Not doubting that it exists, just find it odd that nobody can definitively describe it.

Is it as if parts of the screen were covered in grease causing parts to be hazy/blurry?

Is it a matter of clearness/fuzziness in the picture or just unevenness in the color, which I believe is the blotching problem that should go away after burn-in.

I just got a 5020 and don't notice anything abnormal during bright scenes, pans, etc. I do notice some uneveness in the screen which has been lessening with more hours on the set.

It's hard to describe it unless you have seen it. The best I could explain is this way:

When you are doing the break-in you see the 100% white image. The image on the screen looks somewhat discolored and it's not 100% even, pure white, I am not talking about the shade of white, but screen uniformity. There are parts where it looks darker, now when there is motion the image is moving, but these darker parts are stationary in relation to what's on the screen. This movement of the light area under the darker parts causes it to stand out more. The "dirty" screen is physically on the screen, many say it's the bonded filter, which I would agree with in my case.
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post #106 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by iatacs19 View Post

It's hard to describe it unless you have seen it. The best I could explain is this way:

When you are doing the break-in you see the 100% white image. The image on the screen looks somewhat discolored and it's not 100% even, pure white, I am not talking about the shade of white, but screen uniformity. There are parts where it looks darker, now when there is motion the image is moving, but these darker parts are stationary in relation to what's on the screen. This movement of the light area under the darker parts causes it to stand out more. The "dirty" screen is physically on the screen, many say it's the bonded filter, which I would agree with in my case.

That is a good explanation of it, though I also had lighter spots as well as straight lines (horizontal and vertical) that were either lighter or darker on my 5020 as well.

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post #107 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iatacs19 View Post

It's hard to describe it unless you have seen it. The best I could explain is this way:

When you are doing the break-in you see the 100% white image. The image on the screen looks somewhat discolored and it's not 100% even, pure white, I am not talking about the shade of white, but screen uniformity. There are parts where it looks darker, now when there is motion the image is moving, but these darker parts are stationary in relation to what's on the screen. This movement of the light area under the darker parts causes it to stand out more. The "dirty" screen is physically on the screen, many say it's the bonded filter, which I would agree with in my case.


Yeah that is a good explanation. Another way to tell is watch a movie with a light colored scene that pans vertically or horizontally. If you have it, you will see faint lines, streaks, etc. when it pans. If you are into video games, try any game that has a free controlling camera (Assassins Creed, RE5, etc). Move the camera around when looking up at a light sky (thinking of Assassins Creed on this one). You should also see it this way.
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post #108 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 08:48 AM
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Iatacs, i thought what you are describing (uneveness in the color) is the blotchiness that goes away after burn-in?

I believe I have noticed what you just described, but i have also noticed that the uneveness in color uniformity is dissapearing greatly. I noticed it very clearly when running my break-in images through my thumbdrive during the first few hours. I now have about 80 hours on my set and don't notice it nearly as much.
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post #109 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asap200x View Post

Iatacs, i thought what you are describing (uneveness in the color) is the blotchiness that goes away after burn-in?

I believe I have noticed what you just described, but i have also noticed that the uneveness in color uniformity is dissapearing greatly. I noticed it very clearly when running my break-in images through my thumbdrive during the first few hours. I now have about 80 hours on my set and don't notice it nearly as much.

Unfortunately, it is not anything that can be corrected. It is a physical defect in the coating of the screen. The actual pixels in the panel are 100% functional and perfect. I am sure that if the AR coating were removed, the screen would look 100% uniform or very close to it.

I really like plasma because there are no clouding or flashlight problems, but it has its own limitations. The Pioneer Kuro IMO is at a disadvantage when it comes to "dirty screen" effect compared to the Panasonic's due to its "bonded" filter vs. just using a physical filter in front of the screen.

I ran into this "dirty screen" effect a lot back in the early 90's with CRT monitors from cheap manufacturers. Some people see it right away, others will never notice it and continue to enjoy their TV sets during its lifetime.

If you don't notice the dirty screen and the low refresh rate flicker doesn't bother you, then the Kuro is a top notch quality product.
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post #110 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iatacs19 View Post

I am seeing the dirty screen effect on my 09/2008 build-date 5020FD as well. It is like everyone is saying, you can notice it on light colors and panning scenes. The other bad thing is that I also see flicker along with the dirty screen effect, LOL. I am not impressed by Kuro overall. It has good image quality, but the other details that come into play to round out the overall package are not as strong.

I dread having to go to LCD and deal with clouds and flashlights...

You don't have to go back to LCD. Samsung and Panasonic have excellent panels with new models coming out now!
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post #111 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asap200x View Post

I hate to ask again, but what does this dirty screen effect look like? I've read every page here and there is still not a decent description of it, yet many are claiming to have it. Not doubting that it exists, just find it odd that nobody can definitively describe it.

Not an actual picture of it, but an exaggerated rendition of it. See my post on the previous page:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16004934
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post #112 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mittene View Post

Not an actual picture of it, but an exaggerated rendition of it. See my post on the previous page:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16004934

Actually, that is pretty accurate to varying degrees depending on your specific panel.
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post #113 of 455 Old 03-17-2009, 07:25 PM
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If you've ever looked at tinted car windows through polarized sunglasses, a similar effect can be seen.
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post #114 of 455 Old 03-18-2009, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iatacs19 View Post

Actually, that is pretty accurate to varying degrees depending on your specific panel.

If there really is a Pioneer panel that looked even close to that I'd tell that person to take it back asap. I did the Invisible Glass wipe down of my 111 last night and there was certainly some stuff on the screen. It seemed to clear up most of what I thought was the "dirty screen" effect. The screen isn't 100% uniform but I've never had a LCD or Plasma that was.

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post #115 of 455 Old 03-18-2009, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

If there really is a Pioneer panel that looked even close to that I'd tell that person to take it back asap. I did the Invisible Glass wipe down of my 111 last night and there was certainly some stuff on the screen. It seemed to clear up most of what I thought was the "dirty screen" effect. The screen isn't 100% uniform but I've never had a LCD or Plasma that was.

Ok I thought I knew what people are talking about but I don't think I do anymore. I totally recommend everyone to clean their screen once they get their set. There was plenty of gunk on my bezel so I am sure some of that is on the screen. Toppermcfly did the cleaning of this screen and also said it made a huge difference. If I look at my set while it is off in a bright room and move my head up and down with a bright window reflecting off the screen, I can see wavy lines from what appears to be the application of the anti reflective screen. It doesn't affect viewing and I don't see any blotching with no input. Anyone else get the wavy type lines with the set off?

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post #116 of 455 Old 03-18-2009, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sharpjunkie View Post

Ok I thought I knew what people are talking about but I don't think I do anymore. I totally recommend everyone to clean their screen once they get their set. There was plenty of gunk on my bezel so I am sure some of that is on the screen. Toppermcfly did the cleaning of this screen and also said it made a huge difference. If I look at my set while it is off in a bright room and move my head up and down with a bright window reflecting off the screen, I can see wavy lines from what appears to be the application of the anti reflective screen. It doesn't affect viewing and I don't see any blotching with no input. Anyone else get the wavy type lines with the set off?

Yes, I see those wavy lines as well.
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post #117 of 455 Old 03-18-2009, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpjunkie View Post

Ok I thought I knew what people are talking about but I don't think I do anymore. I totally recommend everyone to clean their screen once they get their set. There was plenty of gunk on my bezel so I am sure some of that is on the screen. Toppermcfly did the cleaning of this screen and also said it made a huge difference. If I look at my set while it is off in a bright room and move my head up and down with a bright window reflecting off the screen, I can see wavy lines from what appears to be the application of the anti reflective screen. It doesn't affect viewing and I don't see any blotching with no input. Anyone else get the wavy type lines with the set off?

I tried cleaning mine several times, to see if it was a gunk or not, it didn't help at all, sad to say. So I am pretty sure that the AR screen was the root of my problem, but it seems that it isn't the only cause of this problem.

(I also had the wavy lines as well)

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post #118 of 455 Old 03-18-2009, 12:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Trojita View Post

What exactly is distilled water? I know it is probably a dumb question. Would this be like bottle water? I realize distilled water is removed of chemicals etc. I have the microfiber cloth that came with the Kuro. Would I just dip the microfiber cloth in the water and then ring it out and then wash the screen? Any special way I would need to wash it or dry it? Would I "air" dry it?


Distilled water is free of minerals and contaminants, after going thru a steam process to remove them. Distilled water is clearly marked on the containers in your local store.
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post #119 of 455 Old 03-18-2009, 12:30 PM
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All pioneers will have some form of transparent streaking on camera pans with sky backrounds. This is one of pio's biggest flaws.
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post #120 of 455 Old 03-18-2009, 12:52 PM
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I have a Pro111, got it last September and I post MANY times in the owner thread about this and everyone said I was crazy.....

VINDICATION...

As I said months ago, I looked at about 20 or Pioneer plasmas, both Elite and non-elite and saw dirty screen on most of them, a couple had it so ever so slightly that you wouldn;t be effected by it. I think mine is much worse then most of the ones I have seen. It doesn't get better over time, sad to say.

I am going to try cleaning the screen with a microfiber cloth and distilled water, see if that helps any.

I did notice the the signature series 141 I saw at Best Buy didn't have any dirty screen effect that I could see.. it makes me think that some have the AR coating applied better then others.. too bad
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