Benefits of ISF beyond what you see? Please advise - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

One of the top calibrators here admits that the majority of customers change the calibrated settings within 30 minutes after he leaves.

Calibration mania runs rampant on this forum and for many it ends up being a $500 lesson about researching before you purchase

One thing the ISF'er should explain is that whenever calibration is changed the viewer should keep the settings for a week before switching. The brain needs time to adjust, especially going to D65 from torch mode. If the person paying the money doesn't want to give the new settings a chance, that's his option and his money (possibly wasted).

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post #32 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

One thing the ISF'er should explain is that whenever calibration is changed the viewer should keep the settings for a week before switching. The brain needs time to adjust, especially going to D65 from torch mode. If the person paying the money doesn't want to give the new settings a chance, that's his option and his money (possibly wasted).

larry

Larry, you make a good point. I recently picked up a Samsung 950 LCD to go with my plasma and XBR960. I find myself toning the LCD down each week and liking the results as it gets closer to D65K. But I'm never going to like true D65K. If I'm paying for the calibration wouldn't it be more valuable to me if the calibrator could get me close to what I can live with even if it's not true D65K?
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post #33 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Manufacurers are in the business to sell TVs and they know that people are drawn to the brightest/most pumped up picuture on the "wall of TVs". This is also what many average buyers accept as a "good" picture.

Isn't that what Vivid Mode is all about?
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A TV calibrated to be accurate will look dull on the wall of TVs compared to the other TV with their pumped up settings.

Isn't that what Cinema Mode is for?
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In the end it's a personal choice and each has to decide on their own whether or not it's worth the money.

Yeah -- this is America after all, isn't it.

I finally was able to detect (I think) a visible difference between a 50-inch 720p display and a 1080 display. I imagine someone out there might think that's worth $500. Kinda like that TruCoat the dealers put on new cars in Fargo.
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post #34 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

This quote from the article sums up the disconnect between the calibration community and the average customer:

"Right is right and wrong is wrong. Presenting material on a video system in anything but the most accurate manner in which it is capable of is a disservice to the time and monetary investment that its owners spent assembling it, particularly to those that have given considerable amounts of both."

For the Calibrator community it's D65K or the highway. You, the customer, will learn to like it and if you don't then you are wrong. There should be some room to compromise on customer preference but the arrogance of the calibrators won't allow that.

People don't want to watch tv in a cave, they want something that looks good to them. Given the economy and people's willingness to spend $500 on calibration and not be satisfied ought to be a message to the calibration community. But I suspect they will cling to the "right is right" mantra

These generalizations are as bad as any others. Some people don't mind watching in a "cave". Some people want to know that their set is set to match professional standards widely used in the TV production industry. Some people find the "pop" that many people like to look at cartoonish.

What is important for each person to do is decide what they consider important. If you are more interested in getting a certain look to your picture and that look is not compatible with D65 and proper color space and color points, then you probably shouldn't bother with a calibration at all. You will be much happier with your own "to-taste" adjustments and will save a few hundred bucks at the same time.

It is wrong though to say that those of us who prefer a properly calibrated picture and don't find it dull, yellow or gray, are wasting our money. Calibration, to me, means calibrating to some standard. Anything else is not calibration but adjustment. For people who don't like the D65 standard, come up with a different standard and develop calibration training for calibrators who will adjust sets to that standard. Right now, D65 is the only standard that has any kind of professional credibility unless and until someone comes up with something else (and it would have to be a better standard to be worth anything).

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post #35 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post


It is wrong though to say that those of us who prefer a properly calibrated picture and don't find it dull, yellow or gray, are wasting our money.

I never said that.

You are a convert and subscribe to the D65k standard, but you are in the vast minority just as this board represents a small fraction of the AV users. Money well spent for you, maybe not for the general public.
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post #36 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 02:16 PM
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Being in a minority does not automatically make one wrong (or right). The general public might think differently if they understood more about the subject. It really doesn't matter to me. I have studied the issues and determined that the standard makes sense and I wanted to apply it to my set.

By the way, I wouldn't call myself a convert to anything. D65 is not a religion. It is about the application of known and accepted standards, which is more about science and engineering than a belief system. You may choose to ignore those standards. There is no penalty for doing so (except that you might miss seeing your display at its very best). All I think that should be done is to provide as much information to people like the OP so they can make a decision that makes sense to them. That means all sides of the issue should be discussed.

You don't like D65 calibration and I do so we will go our separate ways. The OP will make his own decision and that is fine as long as it is well-informed. I do think it is incorrect to imply that because I am in a minority that my decision doesn't make sense.

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post #37 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 02:25 PM
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question if u calibrate your tv, and say ur little cousin comes on and goes into pure mode and messes with the settings is your calibration gone? Is there a way to lock in the settings?

Pioneer Elite 111FD and Onkyo 6100B 7.1
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post #38 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 02:35 PM
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>>>D65 is not a religion.<<<<

It is to professional calibrator which was the point of the original article quote: "right is right and wrong is wrong". They are pretty clear about what they mean.

>>>>That means all sides of the issue should be discussed.<<<<br />
Huh? The article clearly indicates that they are not interested in any other opinion

>>>I do think it is incorrect to imply that because I am in a minority that my decision doesn't make sense.<<<<

Show me where I said that. Quit making stuff up
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post #39 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 03:03 PM
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I'm not knocking ISF calibration, but IMO if your room isn't appropriate for it, then I think it would not be worthwhile. By that I mean if your room isn't dark enough. In my living room, there is always light during the day and I suspect an ISF calibration would be too dark for me. In certain dark movies, AVPR for example, would I even be able to tell what's going on? I know the director intended the movie to be dark, but I doubt he meant for it to be so dark that I sit there and ask "what's going on there? I can't see."

Steve

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post #40 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 03:11 PM
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I would say one benefit, especially with the Kuro line, would be less buzzing. Buzzing seems to be tied to contrast and the brightness of the picture. ISF calibrated sets are usually more dim than what Pioneer sets them to out of the box.

So that might be a plus.
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post #41 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 03:18 PM
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While d65 is a real standard and is "correct," brightness is really a subjective thing. If you want a brighter display, ask the calibrator to make it as bright as possible without comproming other picture quality aspects.

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Originally Posted by fireman325 View Post

I'm not knocking ISF calibration, but IMO if your room isn't appropriate for it, then I think it would not be worthwhile. By that I mean if your room isn't dark enough. In my living room, there is always light during the day and I suspect an ISF calibration would be too dark for me. In certain dark movies, AVPR for example, would I even be able to tell what's going on? I know the director intended the movie to be dark, but I doubt he meant for it to be so dark that I sit there and ask "what's going on there? I can't see."

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post #42 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by psychot|K View Post

ISF calibrated sets are usually more dim than what Pioneer sets them to out of the box.

You mean Pioneer has their own Torch Mode out of the box?

Them's fightin' words in these here parts...
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post #43 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by fireman325 View Post

I'm not knocking ISF calibration, but IMO if your room isn't appropriate for it, then I think it would not be worthwhile. By that I mean if your room isn't dark enough. In my living room, there is always light during the day and I suspect an ISF calibration would be too dark for me. In certain dark movies, AVPR for example, would I even be able to tell what's going on? I know the director intended the movie to be dark, but I doubt he meant for it to be so dark that I sit there and ask "what's going on there? I can't see."

I watch a good amount of daytime and/or lights-on TV, and absolutely appreciate the pro-adjustment that one of my sets has under those conditions. I've never found myself having to squint or eliminate lights to clearly see a dark scene during the day. I think people without first hand experience have inaccurate notions about what a calibrated set actually looks like.

And of course a calibrated TV will be at its best in a darkened environment, but that alone certainly doesn't mean that it won't offer considerable improvements under all conditions. Afterall, Pioneer Elites offer ISFccc Day Mode for a reason.
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post #44 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I watch a good amount of daytime and/or lights-on TV, and absolutely appreciate the pro-adjustment that one of my sets has under those conditions. I've never found myself having to squint or eliminate lights to clearly see a dark scene during the day. I think people without first hand experience have inaccurate notions about what a calibrated set actually looks like.

And of course a calibrated TV will be at its best in a darkened environment, but that alone certainly doesn't mean that it won't offer considerable improvements under all conditions. Afterall, Pioneer Elites offer ISFccc Day Mode for a reason.

I don't have bright direct sunlight coming into my room but it is never totally dark and during the day it is moderately bright. I find 99% of the time I get perfectly satisfactory brightness using the calibrated ISFccc night setting.

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post #45 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

>>>D65 is not a religion.<<<<

It is to professional calibrator which was the point of the original article quote: "right is right and wrong is wrong". They are pretty clear about what they mean.

>>>>That means all sides of the issue should be discussed.<<<<br />
Huh? The article clearly indicates that they are not interested in any other opinion

>>>I do think it is incorrect to imply that because I am in a minority that my decision doesn't make sense.<<<<

Show me where I said that. Quit making stuff up

I wasn't commenting on the article but on your response to it. Your implication was that calibration is not for the bulk of the public and therefore makes no sense. Maybe that's not what you meant but that's sure what it sounded like. By both sides of the argument, I think the OP needs to hear all the reasons why a calibration may be worth it as well as all the reasons it might not. I did a lot of study before I ever had a TV calibrated. I learned why the D65 standard exists, who uses it (and I don't mean calibrators), why they use it, what it is intended to do, and why you might or might not want to have it applied to your TV. I also understood the constraints on its applicability. To me the arguments were compellingly for calibration and there were plenty of sound, measurable reasons for it and my environment and tastes would quite comfortably accommodate a calibrated TV. I also understand why many prefer to adjust their sets to what they like and I have no trouble with that. I do have trouble with people who dismiss calibration as inappropriate for everyone because it doesn't work for them.

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post #46 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

While d65 is a real standard and is "correct," brightness is really a subjective thing. If you want a brighter display, ask the calibrator to make it as bright as possible without comproming other picture quality aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I watch a good amount of daytime and/or lights-on TV, and absolutely appreciate the pro-adjustment that one of my sets has under those conditions. I've never found myself having to squint or eliminate lights to clearly see a dark scene during the day. I think people without first hand experience have inaccurate notions about what a calibrated set actually looks like.

And of course a calibrated TV will be at its best in a darkened environment, but that alone certainly doesn't mean that it won't offer considerable improvements under all conditions. Afterall, Pioneer Elites offer ISFccc Day Mode for a reason.

Thanks for the information guys. I didn't realize the brightness could be set at anything other than some exact specified level with ISF calibration. I just assumed that it would be too dark in a lit room. This is why you should never ASSuME anything, and I stand corrected.

Steve

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post #47 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lightforce18 View Post

The Grass looks green as heck. whats wrong with it?

I saw a calibrated 111fd next to a calibrated sony XBR8 and the elite smoked the XBR8 so bad. Thats why I figured the Elite calibrated was awsome. But they didnt have a non calibrated for me to compare.


Some TV can be calibrated better than others. The Sharp special edition that costs more than $10k for example... well, it can't be calibrated properly.

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post #48 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

This quote from the article sums up the disconnect between the calibration community and the average customer:

"Right is right and wrong is wrong. Presenting material on a video system in anything but the most accurate manner in which it is capable of is a disservice to the time and monetary investment that its owners spent assembling it, particularly to those that have given considerable amounts of both."

For the Calibrator community it's D65K or the highway. You, the customer, will learn to like it and if you don't then you are wrong. There should be some room to compromise on customer preference but the arrogance of the calibrators won't allow that.

People don't want to watch tv in a cave, they want something that looks good to them. Given the economy and people's willingness to spend $500 on calibration and not be satisfied ought to be a message to the calibration community. But I suspect they will cling to the "right is right" mantra


Why would a calibrator calibrate a TV incorrectly for a customer?

The purpose of calibrating is to get as close to the standard as possible?

Are you saying that you would like calibrators to do reverse calibrations? To try to make the TV as innaccurate as possible?

A properly calibrated display gives the full benefit of video.

What you are talking about is no different than someone buying a 5000$ 7.1surround sound system and disconnecting 3 of the speakers and arranging 4 of them incorrectly because they "like" the sound that way better.

They may like it, and it may be great for them, but they are doing themselves a disservice and missing out on much of the content by deviating from the way it was intended to be used.
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post #49 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Why would a calibrator calibrate a TV incorrectly for a customer?

The purpose of calibrating is to get as close to the standard as possible?

Are you saying that you would like calibrators to do reverse calibrations? To try to make the TV as innaccurate as possible?

A properly calibrated display gives the full benefit of video.

What you are talking about is no different than someone buying a 5000$ 7.1surround sound system and disconnecting 3 of the speakers and arranging 4 of them incorrectly because they "like" the sound that way better.

They may like it, and it may be great for them, but they are doing themselves a disservice and missing out on much of the content by deviating from the way it was intended to be used.

All standards are arbitrary by their nature. The ISF has picked a standard that is not attractive to the majority of consumers. No one denies the ISF that right.

The disconnect comes from the customers' expectation and the ISF standard. The term "calibration" is an attractive notion to bring out the best in their TV. But what they get is not what they expected. The customer has the right to like what they like.

Many come to this forum with the false expectation of what they will receive from an ISF calibration. I suggest they view a calibrated set before they plunk down $500.
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post #50 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 08:27 PM
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The ISF has picked a standard that is not attractive to the majority of consumers. No one denies the ISF that right.

They are standards that film and video have been shot and mastered against for the better part of a century. You can call those standards arbitrary if you'd like, but if you want a display that's as true to the source that you're watching as possible, calibration is the only way to go.

And I'd like to know where you've gotten the idea that it's not attractive to the majority of consumers. The majority of consumers have never and will never see a properly calibrated television, so how could they possibly have an opinion on the process one way or the other?
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post #51 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post


And I'd like to know where you've gotten the idea that it's not attractive to the majority of consumers. The majority of consumers have never and will never see a properly calibrated television, so how could they possibly have an opinion on the process one way or the other?

I'll rely on the comments from professional calibrators that have said the majority of their customers modify their settings (one noted calibrator on this forum has admitted that and I have had others say it to me). Also, this site is littered with posts from customers that have said they have modified their calibrated settings. There are those that have tried recommended calibrated settings and thought they were too dark and soft. Finally, there are many defenders that admit that a calibrated set is an acquired taste and that people need time to get acclimated to the look.
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post #52 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

I'll rely on the comments from professional calibrators that have said the majority of their customers modify their settings (one noted calibrator on this forum has admitted that and I have had others say it to me). Also, this site is littered with posts from customers that have said they have modified their calibrated settings. .

Thats strange, because HTwaits has the largest list I have ever seen of those who have had thier sets calibrated and thier feedback. I only remember seeing one that didn't state that the calibration improved PQ.
In fact most were blown away.
I think you are confusing your own experience with most here at AVS.

Also, One thing that is terribly obvious is the fact that most of those that do not like a calibrated picture are first time buyers (and most LCD buyers).
Most that have owned an HDTV for a while, preferr a properly calibrated picture over a torched out inaccurate picture.
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post #53 of 99 Old 01-30-2009, 10:00 PM
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I think you are confusing your own experience with most here at AVS.

I have made constant reference to the average consumer. But there are also ton of negative comments on AVS from those dissatisfied with the D65k look. You just have to read them.
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post #54 of 99 Old 01-31-2009, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

All standards are arbitrary by their nature. The ISF has picked a standard that is not attractive to the majority of consumers.


ISF does not "pick" a standard. D65 have been the standard in broadcast and productions houses before ISF ever formed.

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post #55 of 99 Old 01-31-2009, 07:33 AM
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ISF does not "pick" a standard. D65 have been the standard in broadcast and productions houses before ISF ever formed.

And that was an arbitrary standard. So they picked an arbitrary standard which is my point.
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post #56 of 99 Old 01-31-2009, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

Larry, you make a good point. I recently picked up a Samsung 950 LCD to go with my plasma and XBR960. I find myself toning the LCD down each week and liking the results as it gets closer to D65K. But I'm never going to like true D65K. If I'm paying for the calibration wouldn't it be more valuable to me if the calibrator could get me close to what I can live with even if it's not true D65K?

For digital displays, the most important part of a calibration is correct/proper gray scale setup. You have a smooth transition from black ("off") at 16 all the way up to reference white at 235 and hopefully some headroom above for whiter than white. The color temp theoretically can be anything and you can still have a smooth gray scale ramp. The "black and white" (luma) part of component video is what produces your "detail".

Years ago when I first saw D65 I wasn't impressed, most likely because it was different than what I was used to seeing. Although, my goal has always been to watch exactly what is on the disc - good or bad. Now anything other than D65 looks odd to me.

larry

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post #57 of 99 Old 01-31-2009, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

And that was an arbitrary standard. So they picked an arbitrary standard which is my point.

In what way was the choice arbitrary? D65 is the white point that is generally considered to be a good match for daylight. Is your comment based on some other information on the matter or just that you don't know any better?

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #58 of 99 Old 01-31-2009, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

And that was an arbitrary standard. So they picked an arbitrary standard which is my point.

ISF does not choose an arbitrary standard. The industrty maybe, but ISF is just picking up what's already being used by the industry.

Also, ANY standard in the beginning is arbitrary such as NTSC, decibel, ISO, etc

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post #59 of 99 Old 01-31-2009, 08:35 AM
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ISF does not choose an arbitrary standard. The industrty maybe, but ISF is just picking up what's already being used by the industry.

Also, ANY standard in the beginning is arbitrary such as NTSC, decibel, etc

Correct, any standard is established to set a benchmark to be used by everyone such that consistency of result can be achieved.

At one time the "mile" was arbitrary. Once it becomes a standard then it is meaningful and relevant. Do you also weigh whatever you want to weigh, because the pound was arbitrarily chosen?
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post #60 of 99 Old 01-31-2009, 08:36 AM
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correct, any standard is established to set a benchmark to be used by everyone such that consistency of result can be achieved.


agreed !!!!

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