Curiousity . . . Flicker and Default GrayScale in Standard Mode at 1080p/24 on 5020FD - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 268 Old 03-01-2009, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath View Post

This sounds very reasonable. So why in this case is off not refaulting to 72hz on a 24p signal is the question.

Perhaps it has something to do with pure mode, vs optimum mode, vs. isf day.

if you could test in those 3 modes. I believe not all of those modes have the default 72hz in off, but rather off is = to advanced.

1 other tidbit. now that i know it is a 5020. I am pretty sure the default to 72hz in off mode is elite only. and not your set. dnice might have assumed an elite, as i did.

See my previous post.
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post #92 of 268 Old 03-01-2009, 10:53 AM
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I would agree that under your current setup, off is acting at 60hz. (for whatever the reason, but I also think it is working as intended)
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post #93 of 268 Old 03-01-2009, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath View Post

This sounds very reasonable. So why in this case is off not refaulting to 72hz on a 24p signal is the question.

Perhaps it has something to do with pure mode, vs optimum mode, vs. isf day.

if you could test in those 3 modes. I believe not all of those modes have the default 72hz in off, but rather off is = to advanced.

1 other tidbit. now that i know it is a 5020. I am pretty sure the default to 72hz in off mode is elite only. and not your set. dnice might have assumed an elite, as i did.

Yes, my references were also to the Elite reviews/tests. My mistake. Until now, I was unaware the two differed in this regard.

Go Duke !
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post #94 of 268 Old 03-01-2009, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

Yes, my references were also to the Elite reviews/tests. My mistake. Until now, I was unaware the two differed in this regard.

I'm not so sure they do, but that very well may be the case. All this talk started in the non-elite discussion thread, so I don't think there was any confusion about which set was the subject.
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post #95 of 268 Old 03-01-2009, 12:31 PM
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If PureCinema Off behaves differently with 24p inputs on non-Elites versus Elites, I'm tempted to think this is a bug. Don't the owner's manuals say the exact same things for Pure Cinema modes for both sets? I think they do.
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post #96 of 268 Old 03-01-2009, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwolf View Post


I input a 24p source to the TV. If I set my camera to it's 24p shooting mode and then a shutter speed that is a multiple of 24(ie 24 or 48), I get flickering in "Off" and "Smooth". If I set my camera to 60i mode and a shutter speed that is a multiple of 60, I get flickering in "Standard" and "Advanced". I can also see telecine judder in "Off" and "Smooth", but not in "Standard" and "Advanced". Notice I say telecine judder and not 24P motion judder, I know the difference. I even said in the non elite thread that I don't believe this constitutes as fact because of all the variables, but that doesn't stop me from believing it.

now that is interesting
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post #97 of 268 Old 03-01-2009, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff_DML View Post

now that is interesting

I think so too!
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post #98 of 268 Old 03-03-2009, 11:20 AM
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Nice to see a dedicated topic to this.

I had always taken what D-Nice said about 24p in PC modes Off and Advance (that is it does the 72Hz 3:3 conversion in both) as gospel. I'm running a 5020 non-Elite, btw.

Just last night I was watching Transformers and decided to play around with PC. I was doing this mainly because I wanted to see what Pioneer's motion interpolation looked like in PC Smooth. It's VERY subtle, much more so than Samsung AMP, and I could only really tell it was on in a few scenes.

Finally, I got to the credits and had been watching in PC Off at that point. I noticed the credits were completely smoothly scrolling up the screen. I could have sworn if it was really doing 72Hz then I would at least see some of the 24p judder here, but I wasn't. I switched to PC Advance and suddenly I could see the judder in the vertically scrolling credits. Using the "wrench" button to switch between PC Off and PC Advance it was quite obvious that the TV was treating the source differently between the two modes. I don't claim to know how to tell the difference between telecine judder and 24fps judder, but it's obvious the two modes were displaying the same input signal differently. I'd assume PC Advance was actually displaying the 24p at 72Hz and PC Off was not.

If this is the case, and this is specific to the non-Elites, that PC off DOES NOT do 72Hz 3:3 pulldown on 24p sources on the non-Elite sets, then that basically means there is no way for non-Elite Kuros to do any ControlCal grayscale adjustments AND have proper 24p display at the same time.

Seems sort of wonky to me. I haven't done any ControlCal adjustments yet, but that would be a disappointing development.
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post #99 of 268 Old 03-03-2009, 11:44 AM
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XRox:
You seem to be familiar with how a plasma redraws the frames. Do you think a video could be made similar to this one(uses CRTs) that could then be photographed to check the refresh for ourselves? Or some other way to exploit the way a plasma operates for our own personal gain(knowledge)!

If so I'll gladly make it.
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post #100 of 268 Old 03-03-2009, 11:55 AM
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what bluray player were you using? did you force it to 1080p/24?? is the bluray player connect directly to the panel or to a receiver? if to a receiver you sure its not affecting the video signal in anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teiresias View Post

Nice to see a dedicated topic to this.

I had always taken what D-Nice said about 24p in PC modes Off and Advance (that is it does the 72Hz 3:3 conversion in both) as gospel. I'm running a 5020 non-Elite, btw.

Just last night I was watching Transformers and decided to play around with PC. I was doing this mainly because I wanted to see what Pioneer's motion interpolation looked like in PC Smooth. It's VERY subtle, much more so than Samsung AMP, and I could only really tell it was on in a few scenes.

Finally, I got to the credits and had been watching in PC Off at that point. I noticed the credits were completely smoothly scrolling up the screen. I could have sworn if it was really doing 72Hz then I would at least see some of the 24p judder here, but I wasn't. I switched to PC Advance and suddenly I could see the judder in the vertically scrolling credits. Using the "wrench" button to switch between PC Off and PC Advance it was quite obvious that the TV was treating the source differently between the two modes. I don't claim to know how to tell the difference between telecine judder and 24fps judder, but it's obvious the two modes were displaying the same input signal differently. I'd assume PC Advance was actually displaying the 24p at 72Hz and PC Off was not.

If this is the case, and this is specific to the non-Elites, that PC off DOES NOT do 72Hz 3:3 pulldown on 24p sources on the non-Elite sets, then that basically means there is no way for non-Elite Kuros to do any ControlCal grayscale adjustments AND have proper 24p display at the same time.

Seems sort of wonky to me. I haven't done any ControlCal adjustments yet, but that would be a disappointing development.

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post #101 of 268 Old 03-03-2009, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syk69 View Post

what bluray player were you using? did you force it to 1080p/24?? is the bluray player connect directly to the panel or to a receiver? if to a receiver you sure its not affecting the video signal in anyway?

I was using a PS3 with the 24p option set to Automatic, but I made sure to set the Video option to PC while it was running to make sure the panel was seeing a 24p source - it was. Then, obviously, I switched it back to video to make my comparisons.

The PS3 was hooked directly to the 5020, it was not going through a receiver.
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post #102 of 268 Old 03-03-2009, 03:53 PM
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I have D-Nice coming on Saturday to calibrate my set.. he has said he will bring his equipment that measures refresh rate

I'll post pictures of the results if possible.

It was never said that there is no difference between PC: Off and PC:Advanced.. only that PC: Off will process 24p content with 3:3 pulldown at 72Hz.

This is still an interesting topic
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post #103 of 268 Old 03-03-2009, 06:38 PM
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Thanks Andrmgic! Look forward to seeing your results.
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post #104 of 268 Old 03-03-2009, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrmgic View Post

It was never said that there is no difference between PC: Off and PC:Advanced.. only that PC: Off will process 24p content with 3:3 pulldown at 72Hz.

No.
It has been stated many times in the 5020 discussion thread.
Quote:


IF you send your Kuro a 1080p/24 signal, it WILL display it @ 72Hz (with 3:3 pull down) in Pure Cinema OFF and Advance. The ONLY difference between Pure Cinema OFF and Advance is that Advance will extract 24fps material out of 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i signals. AGAIN Pure Cinema OFF and Pure Cinema Advance are IDENTICAL when it comes to a 1080p/24 signal.


Quote:


AGAIN Pure Cinema OFF and Pure Cinema Advance are IDENTICAL when it comes to a 1080p/24 signal.

This is obviously FALSE.
It's visible that motion is different in Off and Advance.
No measurements are required - just look at your 5020.

Our hope is Standard mode. In Standard you can get advantage of 24p (not in Off and Smooth). So if it does support calibration in the same way as Off does, you'll have both: calibration and 24p advantages.
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post #105 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teiresias View Post

Finally, I got to the credits and had been watching in PC Off at that point. I noticed the credits were completely smoothly scrolling up the screen. I could have sworn if it was really doing 72Hz then I would at least see some of the 24p judder here, but I wasn't. I switched to PC Advance and suddenly I could see the judder in the vertically scrolling credits. Using the "wrench" button to switch between PC Off and PC Advance it was quite obvious that the TV was treating the source differently between the two modes.

That's just the kind of useful straight-to-the-point post that's helpful. Something we all can easily test ourselves. But I'm most curious as to how you can change PC modes using the tools button (wrench button) on the remote. ?? There's nothing there about PC modes.

God Bless,
-Clint
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post #106 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

That's just the kind of useful straight-to-the-point post that's helpful. Something we all can easily test ourselves. But I'm most curious as to how you can change PC modes using the tools button (wrench button) on the remote. ?? There's nothing there about PC modes.

Tools is also a before and after button. Press it after changing PC modes and it will revert to the previous setting for instant comparisons.
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post #107 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 05:59 AM
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Can you guys help me edit this chart started by SoSo. Specifically we can add the refresh rates as a column and expand on this matrix so people can just refer to this instead of digging for posts by D-Nice and others in hundreds of threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSo View Post

PureCinema Mode is the same across all models:

PureCinema Mode
Parameter
Description
Film Mode Off deactivates PureCinema
  Standard (not available for input signals 480p, 720p @60Hz, or 1080p @60Hz) automatically detects recorded image data when displaying DVD or high-definition images (e.g., movies) having 24 frames per second for smooth and vivid playback
  Smooth (not available for input signals 1080p @60 Hz) produces smoother and more vivid moving images
  Advance (not available for input signals 1080p @60 Hz) converts theatre-quality images to 72 Hz when displaying DVD images (e.g., movies) having 24 frames per second for smooth and vivid playback
Text Optimization Off deactivates text optimization
  On improves subtitle display quality



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post #108 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by video313 View Post

Our hope is Standard mode. In Standard you can get advantage of 24p (not in Off and Smooth). So if it does support calibration in the same way as Off does, you'll have both: calibration and 24p advantages.

For someone who is so quick to fault people who don't recall the exact details of everything that has been said on this forum, you have managed to miss a very big point in this thread - in fact, one that is obvious from the title. It has been confirmed by several people at this point that Standard mode does not use the calibrated grayscale when the TV receives a 1080p/24 signal.

You also jump to the conclusion that Standard does indeed refresh at a multiple of 24 - that is something which, while possible, remains to be confirmed. Getting to the bottom of both of these observations is the entire reason for this thread, and should be entirely obvious from the title and the first post. You're welcome to contribute here, but have some respect for the process. We're trying to figure something out, not arbitrarily draw conclusions and then criticize people who make observations or ask simple questions.
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post #109 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

That's just the kind of useful straight-to-the-point post that's helpful. Something we all can easily test ourselves. But I'm most curious as to how you can change PC modes using the tools button (wrench button) on the remote. ?? There's nothing there about PC modes.

Maybe I'm referencing the wrong button (and I'm at home at the moment and can't check), but when you're in the picture adjustment menu, including the PC mode select menu, there's a button - which I think is the "wrench" you can press on the remote that toggles between your current setting and your last changed setting. That way you can, for example, go from sharpness set to 15 and sharpness set to 25 at the push of a button to see the difference.

This button also works in the PC selection menu, so just select PC Off first, then choose PC Advance and you can push the wrench button to switch between the two. It does keep the menu displayed though.
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post #110 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teiresias View Post

Maybe I'm referencing the wrong button (and I'm at home at the moment and can't check), but when you're in the picture adjustment menu, including the PC mode select menu, there's a button - which I think is the "wrench" you can press on the remote that toggles between your current setting on your last changed setting. That way you can, for example, go from sharpness set to 15 and sharpness set to 25 at the push of a button to see the difference.

This button also works in the PC selection menu, so just select PC Off first, then choose PC Advance and you can push the wrench button to switch between the two. It does keep the menu displayed though.

To clarify for Clint S., you have to have the PC mode selection window up at the time. If you do, you first change the PC mode (if you are in Off, then change to Advanced, or if you are in Advanced, then change to Off), and then if you press the wrench it will toggle back to the original setting and back and forth if you continue pressing it. Once you are done, you have to toggle back to the new setting to exit the PC menu (it doesn't let you exit from that menu if you are currently toggled to the original setting).
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post #111 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bmwolf View Post

Thanks Andrmgic! Look forward to seeing your results.

Yeah, that's awesome, I really look forward to hearing how he is able to measure this. If you are able to, a video of the test would be very enlightening. Even if he proves that it's in 72 Hz mode when in Off, there are obviously some differences between the various modes. It may be more technical than 72 Hz - different number of subfields, or different scanning technique? - but I'd still love to figure that out too if we can.
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post #112 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogney Baux View Post

Tools is also a before and after button. Press it after changing PC modes and it will revert to the previous setting for instant comparisons.

Hey thank you! But it took some doing to figure out exactly what you mean.

God Bless,
-Clint
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post #113 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraps628 View Post

To clarify for Clint S., you have to have the PC mode selection window up at the time. If you do, you first change the PC mode (if you are in Off, then change to Advanced, or if you are in Advanced, then change to Off), and then if you press the wrench it will toggle back to the original setting and back and forth if you continue pressing it. Once you are done, you have to toggle back to the new setting to exit the PC menu (it doesn't let you exit from that menu if you are currently toggled to the original setting).

I saw your post a bit late, but I finally figured that out, thanks.

It will change between any two PC modes. To exit, all I had to do was press the "X" key.

God Bless,
-Clint
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post #114 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraps628 View Post

Yeah, that's awesome, I really look forward to hearing how he is able to measure this. If you are able to, a video of the test would be very enlightening. Even if he proves that it's in 72 Hz mode when in Off, there are obviously some differences between the various modes. It may be more technical than 72 Hz - different number of subfields, or different scanning technique? - but I'd still love to figure that out too if we can.

Unfortunately, all I've got is a still camera.

Still, it should be an enlightening experience.
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post #115 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Andrmgic View Post

Unfortunately, all I've got is a still camera.

Still, it should be an enlightening experience.

Cool, look forward to it. By the way, at least my digital still camera has a movie mode, which I expect would do the trick if you have the same thing. Just a thought.
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post #116 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraps628 View Post

For someone who is so quick to fault people who don't recall the exact details of everything that has been said on this forum, you have managed to miss a very big point in this thread - in fact, one that is obvious from the title. It has been confirmed by several people at this point that Standard mode does not use the calibrated grayscale when the TV receives a 1080p/24 signal.

1. I don't fault newcomers. I keep facts straight.
2. I did not miss anything.
As you see in my post I say "hope" and "if" regarding Standard mode vs calibrated grayscale support.
That's my concern.
You might read in the 5020 discussion multiple guarantees that Standard uses calibrated grayscale for 24p.
What you observe and post here ruins much of what was written on the topic.
That's why your research is very important.

Quote:
You also jump to the conclusion that Standard does indeed refresh at a multiple of 24 - that is something which, while possible, remains to be confirmed.

I've never jumped to refresh rate conclusions.
I just post what my 5020 shows. Off and Advance demonstarate different motion. I am talking about visible things.
Off provides no 24p advantage, while Standard does.

Your testing will be more successful if visual assessment is not neglected.
Thank you.
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post #117 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teiresias View Post

Nice to see a dedicated topic to this.

I had always taken what D-Nice said about 24p in PC modes Off and Advance (that is it does the 72Hz 3:3 conversion in both) as gospel. I'm running a 5020 non-Elite, btw.

Just last night I was watching Transformers and decided to play around with PC. I was doing this mainly because I wanted to see what Pioneer's motion interpolation looked like in PC Smooth. It's VERY subtle, much more so than Samsung AMP, and I could only really tell it was on in a few scenes.

I just started looking at the smooth mode. One poster says it fixes more problems than any artifacts it creates and "does more good than harm". So what was your overall impression of the mode?


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post #118 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrmgic View Post

I have D-Nice coming on Saturday to calibrate my set.. he has said he will bring his equipment that measures refresh rate

If the refresh rate measures at 72Hz does that neccessitate also that that 3:3 pulldown is being used?

Quote:
If you are able to, a video of the test would be very enlightening. Even if he proves that it's in 72 Hz mode when in Off, there are obviously some differences between the various modes.

True.

At the same time the faster 72Hz refresh rate provides some benefit in and of itself. Not only does it benefit obviously as being a multiple of 24 for 24fps content but it is also the rate at which all flicker has been found to be absent in terms of human visual perception.

If the 1080p/24fps signal causes a 72Hz refresh rate in Pure Cinema: Off then I would have to conclude that the 72Hz benefit is being received along with calibration effect even if the modes total behavior is not identical to PC:Advanced.


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post #119 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

I just started looking at the smooth mode. One poster says it fixes more problems than any artifacts it creates and "does more harm than good". So what was your overall impression of the mode?

Honestly, I could barely see it doing anything. When I watch a Samsung LCD with AMP turned on I think it's pretty obvious, but the motion interpolation done in PC Smooth is so subtle I barely could see it. The only times I could see it is when there is very slow panning of backgrounds or slower moving foreground images against fairly static backgrounds. It's almost like the processing barely does anything to faster moving images (to my eyes anyway).

That being said, I'd never use it. The fact that it only shows up to me in very rare instances only serves to make it stick out even more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

If the refresh rate measures at 72Hz does that neccessitate also that that 3:3 pulldown is being used?

True.

At the same time the faster 72Hz refresh rate provides some benefit in and of itself. Not only does it benefit obviously as being a multiple of 24 for 24fps content but it is also the rate at which all flicker has been found to be absent in terms of human visual perception.

If the 1080p/24fps signal causes a 72Hz refresh rate in Pure Cinema: Off then I would have to conclude that the 72Hz benefit is being received along with calibration effect even if the modes total behavior is not identical to PC:Advanced.

If the source is 24Hz and the refresh rate is 72Hz, then there has to be some kind of pulldown algorithm going on. 3:3 is the most natural, and I'd imagine easiest to do. Unless either PC Off or PC Advance is doing some kind of interpolation that isn't specified than if both modes were operating at 72Hz then I'd expect them to look the same, which they clearly do not.

However, I have yet to notice any of the tell-tale signs of interpolation while viewing in PC Advance or PC Off that one can see when viewing in PC Smooth or when viewing Samsung AMP (or any other similar technology). My pure guess would be to think the simplest explanation would be the right one and that PC Off is not 72Hz. I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but if I am then we have another mystery as to why the two modes (Off and Advance) look different when they're both running at 72Hz.
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post #120 of 268 Old 03-04-2009, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teiresias View Post

If the source is 24Hz and the refresh rate is 72Hz, then there has to be some kind of pulldown algorithm going on.

Well I would expect so but if you're going to consider every possibility then you have to consider that perhaps it's not.

Quote:


3:3 is the most natural, and I'd imagine easiest to do. Unless either PC Off or PC Advance is doing some kind of interpolation that isn't specified than if both modes were operating at 72Hz then I'd expect them to look the same, which they clearly do not.

Yes it seems that if it's 72hz it would naturally do 3:3 pulldown. However I suppose it's possible that simple frame dup scheme could be used, every 5th frame?, although I can't imagine why they would unless it's unintentional.


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