Curiousity . . . Flicker and Default GrayScale in Standard Mode at 1080p/24 on 5020FD - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #241 of 268 Old 03-28-2009, 10:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dahlsim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,997
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

To my eyes the 9G PC mode black is slightly higher than the 8G video mode black, and about the same as the 8G PC mode black.

Now the difference between the video and PC black on the 9G is significant. I switched from a black PC mode screen to video mode and watched the black level fall right before my eyes. It was a big shift.

If that's the case then you must be seeing something different than what I see and also different than the actual measurements I referenced from the review above. In that case the 9G Kuro HDM-PC mode had almost identical black level to the video mode of the Kuro 8G model.

This may also be attributable to the fact that you are working with a monitor model and not a 9G TV model.

Quote:
When I calibrate the grayscale on PC mode I'll look for improvements to the color points. They look so far off to me that a pretty huge change would have to happen.

The biggest issue with PC mode on my 500m is that it doesn't like interlaced signals. 1080i and 480i signals show up as a weird stretched and zoomed in mess. This wasn't the case with the 8G and doesn't seem to be the case with your 9G Kuro either. Must be unique to the monitor models. This makes it challenging to do A-B comparisons, which were very easy with the 8G.

Yes, on my 6020 I can watch any signal in HDMI-PC mode. Your result is comparable to the It seems the PC mode is simply more generally usable in TV models and not directly comparable. The monitors though really wouldn't appear to have much need for the PC modes since the adjustability is there already to make the inputs suitable for PC signals, namely the ability to turn off all the video processing.

The Non-Elite models need the PC modes to get that 'Pure' type signal.

Family DVD Collection
Insider thread last question? R.I.P.
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.
Samuel Johnson 1709-1784, British Author
Dahlsim is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #242 of 268 Old 03-28-2009, 10:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dahlsim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,997
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

But you do have RGB adjustments don't you?

Yes, but don't confuse that with color adjustments, which don't have directly, just indirectly as I linked to.

It's more that you have the ability to adjust/create grayscales in PC mode and also the ability to save them in separate memories which you don't have in Video Modes without Service Menu access / ControlCal.

So maybe Bogney and can tell us exactly what the refresh rates are doing.

Family DVD Collection
Insider thread last question? R.I.P.
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.
Samuel Johnson 1709-1784, British Author
Dahlsim is offline  
post #243 of 268 Old 04-05-2009, 11:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bogney Baux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 1,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I obtained a Blu-Ray movie from France that had the special feature in 576i 50 Hz. I played it in my Pioneer 09 in Source Direct mode and got the following results for Pure Cinema on my 141.

Advance
576i 50 - 75.00 Hz

Smooth
576i 50 - 60.01 Hz

Standard
576i 50 - 75.00 Hz

Off
576i 50 - 75.00 Hz



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogney Baux View Post

I again borrowed the device from the guys in the engineering lab of the TV network that I work at.

Since my previous measurements on the PRO-111FD I have acquired a PRO-141FD Signature series from Robert at Value Electronics.

As before, I used a Pioneer 09 Bluray player that can easily change output resolutions on the fly.

Here are my Pure Cinema refresh frequency results for each setting on the PRO-141FD.

Advance
480i 60 - 71.93 Hz
480p 60 - 71.93 Hz
720p 60 - 71.93 Hz
1080i 60 - 71.93 Hz
1080p 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080p 24 - 71.93 Hz


Smooth
480i 60 - 59.94 Hz
480p 60 - 59.94 Hz
720p 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080i 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080p 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080p 24 - 59.94 Hz


Standard
480i 60 - 59.94 Hz
480p 60 - 59.94 Hz
720p 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080i 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080p 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080p 24 - 71.93 Hz


Off
480i 60 - 59.94 Hz
480p 60 - 59.94 Hz
720p 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080i 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080p 60 - 59.94 Hz
1080p 24 - 59.94 Hz

Bogney Baux is offline  
post #244 of 268 Old 04-05-2009, 11:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bogney Baux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 1,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by razi View Post

I see that you're located on Long Island. I'm in NYC, so if you ever find yourself in the city with your refresh rate sensor, you have an open invitation to test my non-elite 6020.

Razi and I have not yet been able to get together to do this test. Is anyone else in NYC with a 5020 or 6020 interested in doing this test?
Bogney Baux is offline  
post #245 of 268 Old 04-08-2009, 12:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dahlsim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,997
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogney Baux View Post

I obtained a Blu-Ray movie from France that had the special feature in 576i 50 Hz. I played it in my Pioneer 09 in Source Direct mode and got the following results for Pure Cinema on my 141.

Advance
576i 50 – 75.00 Hz

Smooth
576i 50 – 60.01 Hz

Standard
576i 50 – 75.00 Hz

Off
576i 50 – 75.00 Hz

Is source direct the equivalent of hdmi-pc input mode?

The 75Hz is interesting as it is neither 60Hz or 72Hz. Sort of leans towards what I suspected which is that a simple frame duplication scheme is being used.

Good luck finding an XX20 in your area to complete the testing goal.

Family DVD Collection
Insider thread last question? R.I.P.
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.
Samuel Johnson 1709-1784, British Author
Dahlsim is offline  
post #246 of 268 Old 04-08-2009, 02:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bogney Baux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 1,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Is source direct the equivalent of hdmi-pc input mode?

On the Pioneer 09 Bluray player, source direct outputs what ever is on the disc. If it is 1080p 24 then it puts out 1080p 24. If it is 576i 50 as in this case, that is what it outputs
Bogney Baux is offline  
post #247 of 268 Old 04-24-2009, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Scraps628's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogney Baux View Post

Razi and I have not yet been able to get together to do this test. Is anyone else in NYC with a 5020 or 6020 interested in doing this test?

Nothing has happened in a while. Is everyone just too busy enjoying Spring to be inside screwing around with their TVs? Hope so.

Let us know if you ever get together to do the test though.
Scraps628 is offline  
post #248 of 268 Old 04-24-2009, 01:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bogney Baux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 1,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraps628 View Post

Nothing has happened in a while. Is everyone just too busy enjoying Spring to be inside screwing around with their TVs? Hope so.

Let us know if you ever get together to do the test though.

We had two tentative arrangements to do the test but he could not make them. I suggested a time frame for a third try but he never responded back.

Razi, if you are still interested, let me know.

Anyone else in the NYC area want to do this test?
Bogney Baux is offline  
post #249 of 268 Old 04-24-2009, 05:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
notoriousmatty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by razi View Post

The refresh rate change is actually quite easy to detect, even if you are one of those people that is not susceptible to noticing telecine judder.
In a darkened room put up a windowed 100 IRE pattern on your display. You can use the AVS HD 709 patterns found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post12373254

Now put your bluray player in 24p mode and flip between OFF and Advance PC modes. You should easily be able to see a noticeable flicker in OFF and none in Advance. It's a crude test, but it does demonstrate that there is a difference in refresh rate between the 2 modes.

Note: the flicker is more easily noticed if a brighter AV mode is used such as Performance or Sport.

This test also demonstrates one of the additional benefits of achieving 72 Hz beyond the reduction in motion judder, namely a more solid image.


Im very sensitive to judder and am actually having a pioneer tech come out already only on my 2nd day with my 600m. Im not a patient enough person to read through all the soap opera going on in a TECH FORUM. Im noticing a large dose of judder and a subtle anomoly (flicker?) thats giving me a bad headache. I thought the 3:3 pulldown was supposed to eliminate judder, not make it worse.
notoriousmatty is offline  
post #250 of 268 Old 04-24-2009, 11:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Clint S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 2,740
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraps628 View Post

Nothing has happened in a while. Is everyone just too busy enjoying Spring to be inside screwing around with their TVs? Hope so.

As I understand it, the questions have been answered and proved on the Elites, and we're all just waiting on results for the tests on a NE (as Bogney mentioned above).

God Bless,
-Clint
Clint S. is offline  
post #251 of 268 Old 05-04-2009, 03:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bogney Baux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 1,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

What, exactly, do you think the photocell is measuring?

Is the photocell going to detect refresh rate when the pixels have a sub-frame rate of 360Hz while the frame rates are 60Hz or 72Hz and there is NO BLANKING between frames? Plasma TVs do not BLANK the panel between frames. There is NOTHING going on that a photocell is EVER likely to detect.

Some spectrophotometers have the ability to sync on the sub-pixel frequency of 360Hz and they will accurately detect frame rates. I doubt your "simple photometer" is seeing ANYTHING it can measure accurately.

Plasma pixels can only be on or off. To produce intermediate luminance levels, the sub-pixel frequency is used to modulate the pixels... a window representing 50% stimulus would have the pixels in a 1/60th of a second frame changing levels 360 times during that frame... 180 of the sub-pixel cycles would be "off", 180 of the sub-pixel cycles would be "on". If you display a 50% stim window... there will be NO "FRAME" detectable by a photocell. THe pixels will simply be turning on and off at the rate of 360x60 or 2100Hz. How would you know where the "frame" is? There's no blanking between frames.

If you made a test pattern that had 12 white frames and 12 black frames interleaved for alternating 24p white/black frames on a disc... how is the photocell going to measure 60Hz when there will be an uneven cadence of white and black frames (no gap will be detectable between doubled black or doubled white frames)?

I'm VERY skeptical that a photocell is worth anything when measuring plasma refresh rate
.

Mr. Blackburn, I present the following pictures as evidence that a photocell can measure refresh rate on a Pioneer plasma. These particular measurements were made on a PRO-141FD.
The Tektronix oscilloscope's sweep rate is set for 5 milliseconds. The Video source is a Pioneer 09 playing a 1080 24p scene from the Blu-Ray version of Digital Video Essentials.


















Pure Cinema Film Mode Off 59.94 Hz













Pure Cinema Film Mode Advance 71.93Hz


Bogney Baux is offline  
post #252 of 268 Old 05-12-2009, 09:58 AM
Newbie
 
any_user's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Greetings,

I have new information regarding the "Pure Cinema" mode refresh rates on the non-elite models. I've created two videos and put them on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Hmmb-RCfII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPP-CwzHTQ

The videos show my 5020 in all of the "Pure Cinema" modes while being measured for refresh rate using a photocell device sent to me by Bogney Baux. I believe it proves that "Off" mode does not display the 24p effect and that "Standard" mode does not perform 3:2 pulldown when supplied a 1080/24p signal. These two items have been points of contention on this forum for awhile.

I've measured the refresh rates in all of the "Pure Cinema" modes with multiple input resolutions:

Advance
480/60i - 72 Hz
480/60p - 72 Hz
1080/60i - 72 Hz
1080/60p - 60 Hz
1080/24p - 72 Hz

Smooth
480/60i - 60 Hz
480/60p - 60 Hz
1080/60i - 60 Hz
1080/60p - 60 Hz
1080/24p - 60 Hz

Standard
480/60i - 60 Hz
480/60p - 60 Hz
1080/60i - 60 Hz
1080/60p - 60 Hz
1080/24p - 72 Hz

Off
480/60i - 60 Hz
480/60p - 60 Hz
1080/60i - 60 Hz
1080/60p - 60 Hz
1080/24p - 60 Hz

The measurements exactly match those of Bogney Baux performed on his elite model Kuro.

I will admit that I was a bit skeptical when I saw the simplicity of the device. After seeing how it works and researching it a bit however, I'm convinced that it is giving an accurate measurement of the refresh rate. Cinematographers and audio/video engineers have been using devices like this one for a long time to measure refresh rates of TV's, monitors, and flourescent lights.

Thanks to Bogney for sending me the parts and telling me how to assemble them.

Comments and questions are welcome.
any_user is offline  
post #253 of 268 Old 05-12-2009, 10:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dahlsim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,997
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by any_user View Post

Greetings,

I have new information regarding the "Pure Cinema" mode refresh rates on the non-elite models.

Thanks for testing and posting results.

Can you run the same tests on the HDMI-PC Signal type modes? See this earilier post.

Family DVD Collection
Insider thread last question? R.I.P.
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.
Samuel Johnson 1709-1784, British Author
Dahlsim is offline  
post #254 of 268 Old 05-13-2009, 05:25 AM
Newbie
 
any_user's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Can you run the same tests on the HDMI-PC Signal type modes?

Sure thing. I'll do that today if possible.
any_user is offline  
post #255 of 268 Old 05-22-2009, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Scraps628's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by any_user View Post

Greetings,

I have new information regarding the "Pure Cinema" mode refresh rates on the non-elite models. I've created two videos and put them on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Hmmb-RCfII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmPP-CwzHTQ

The videos show my 5020 in all of the "Pure Cinema" modes while being measured for refresh rate using a photocell device sent to me by Bogney Baux. I believe it proves that "Off" mode does not display the 24p effect and that "Standard" mode does not perform 3:2 pulldown when supplied a 1080/24p signal. These two items have been points of contention on this forum for awhile.

I've measured the refresh rates in all of the "Pure Cinema" modes with multiple input resolutions:

Advance
480/60i - 72 Hz
480/60p - 72 Hz
1080/60i - 72 Hz
1080/60p - 60 Hz
1080/24p - 72 Hz

Smooth
480/60i - 60 Hz
480/60p - 60 Hz
1080/60i - 60 Hz
1080/60p - 60 Hz
1080/24p - 60 Hz

Standard
480/60i - 60 Hz
480/60p - 60 Hz
1080/60i - 60 Hz
1080/60p - 60 Hz
1080/24p - 72 Hz

Off
480/60i - 60 Hz
480/60p - 60 Hz
1080/60i - 60 Hz
1080/60p - 60 Hz
1080/24p - 60 Hz

The measurements exactly match those of Bogney Baux performed on his elite model Kuro.

I will admit that I was a bit skeptical when I saw the simplicity of the device. After seeing how it works and researching it a bit however, I'm convinced that it is giving an accurate measurement of the refresh rate. Cinematographers and audio/video engineers have been using devices like this one for a long time to measure refresh rates of TV's, monitors, and flourescent lights.

Thanks to Bogney for sending me the parts and telling me how to assemble them.

Comments and questions are welcome.

Thanks! That's obviously what we'd all been suspecting. Very good to know. I guess we have to choose between 72 Hz and modified grayscale then.
Scraps628 is offline  
post #256 of 268 Old 05-22-2009, 07:00 AM
Newbie
 
any_user's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I still haven't forgotten about testing HDMI PC mode. I've just barely had any time to turn on the TV for the last week. I plan to try ASAP.
any_user is offline  
post #257 of 268 Old 05-22-2009, 07:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dahlsim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,997
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by any_user View Post

I still haven't forgotten about testing HDMI PC mode. I've just barely had any time to turn on the TV for the last week. I plan to try ASAP.

Don't sweat it. Thanks to Bogney I already have the device (he loaned it too me ) and have tested some already. Been busy myself but hopefully I'll be able to finish this weekend and then post.


Quote:
Thanks! That's obviously what we'd all been suspecting. Very good to know. I guess we have to choose between 72 Hz and modified grayscale then.

Actually the real issue has been resolved. If you read the owners thread recent discovery by Razi along with updated software from Turbe has made the issue itself moot because owners can now calibrate any Pure Cinema mode.

Family DVD Collection
Insider thread last question? R.I.P.
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.
Samuel Johnson 1709-1784, British Author
Dahlsim is offline  
post #258 of 268 Old 05-23-2009, 03:44 PM
Member
 
Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

[..]
The 75Hz is interesting as it is neither 60Hz or 72Hz. Sort of leans towards what I suspected which is that a simple frame duplication scheme is being used.
[..]

75 Hz works well for film based 50Hz material, since a properly deinterlaced 50Hz film based signal will produce 25 x 2 identical frames per second (using Pure Cinema Standard). At 75 Hz, frame duplication produces 25 x 3 identical frames.

For video based 50Hz material, however, this introduces judder, since in that case the 2 deinterlaced frames are not identical and duplication produces 25 x (2+1).

This is why on the European models there is an additional setting called drive mode, which allows the user to choose 100Hz instead 75Hz so that it produces 25 x (2+2).

S.
Scrutinizer is offline  
post #259 of 268 Old 05-26-2009, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Scraps628's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

Actually the real issue has been resolved. If you read the owners thread recent discovery by Razi along with updated software from Turbe has made the issue itself moot because owners can now calibrate any Pure Cinema mode.

Wow, thanks for letting me know. Do you happen to have a link - I've been unfortunately getting behind on my normal owner's thread reading. And how do we get new software from Turbe?
Scraps628 is offline  
post #260 of 268 Old 05-26-2009, 01:34 PM
Newbie
 
any_user's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
HDMI PC mode seems to run at 60 Hz no matter what signal is sent to it. I'm not sure why Bogney got different results on his Elite.
any_user is offline  
post #261 of 268 Old 07-05-2009, 03:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Rod#S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 36
I realize this thread concerns the behaviour of the modes for the 9Gs but I was wondering if anyone knows how the 8Gs are handling things? Are the results found by any_user and Bogney Baux also taking place on the 8Gs or do those panels do something entirely different? I'm interested because I have a PRO-150FD.

Thanks,

Rod

Rod#S is offline  
post #262 of 268 Old 07-06-2009, 11:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dahlsim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,997
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

I realize this thread concerns the behaviour of the modes for the 9Gs but I was wondering if anyone knows how the 8Gs are handling things? Are the results found by any_user and Bogney Baux also taking place on the 8Gs or do those panels do something entirely different? I'm interested because I have a PRO-150FD.

Thanks,

Rod

I posted results for my own testing of this "curiousity" in the 9G NE Kuro owners thread.

Quote:


HDMI PC mode seems to run at 60 Hz no matter what signal is sent to it. I'm not sure why Bogney got different results on his Elite.

This is the same result I found. The Elite results are because it is a different model. The HDMI PC mode of the 9G NE models is completely stable on every signal type and in general I've found to be a more useful mode for this model while perhaps unneeded on other models.

Family DVD Collection
Insider thread last question? R.I.P.
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.
Samuel Johnson 1709-1784, British Author
Dahlsim is offline  
post #263 of 268 Old 07-06-2009, 11:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dahlsim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,997
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraps628 View Post

Wow, thanks for letting me know. Do you happen to have a link - I've been unfortunately getting behind on my normal owner's thread reading. And how do we get new software from Turbe?

Turbe updated the NE profile, see here.

You can calibrate and save both PC:Advanced and the other PC modes now.

You can even use ControlCal to calibrate and save 2 different video grayscale modes allowing you to drastically affect the usability of all A/V modes.

Family DVD Collection
Insider thread last question? R.I.P.
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome.
Samuel Johnson 1709-1784, British Author
Dahlsim is offline  
post #264 of 268 Old 07-06-2009, 01:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Rod#S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahlsim View Post

I posted results for my own testing of this "curiousity" in the 9G NE Kuro owners thread.



This is the same result I found. The Elite results are because it is a different model. The HDMI PC mode of the 9G NE models is completely stable on every signal type and in general I've found to be a more useful mode for this model while perhaps unneeded on other models.

Thanks for the response and link. Have you seen anyone try these tests with a 8G unit? Im liking what I'm seeing with respect to 1080p24 material in that both Pure Cinema Advance and Pure Cinema Standard play these sources back at 72Hz. I just wish I could verify if the 8Gs are doing this as well.

Thanks again.

Rod

Rod#S is offline  
post #265 of 268 Old 07-07-2009, 05:29 PM
Member
 
mike911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

Thanks for the response and link. Have you seen anyone try these tests with a 8G unit? Im liking what I'm seeing with respect to 1080p24 material in that both Pure Cinema Advance and Pure Cinema Standard play these sources back at 72Hz. I just wish I could verify if the 8Gs are doing this as well.

Thanks again.

Rod

Hi everyone, glad I found this thread, it has proven very informative. I own a 8G (508xd - uk model) and have been trying to test if the 8g really engages 72hz when pure cinema is set to off when a 1080p/24 signal is input (from a ps3 in my case). This was a common asumption back in the 8g days. I lack the equipment Bogney Baux uses, but used a digital camera trick i once used to test a crt refresh rate (with a sony h9). I set my camera to shutter priority mode, and set the shutter to 1/60s and zoomed at the screen. The results are highly repeatable. If the panel is in 60hz mode, there will be no flicker on the kuro when looked throught the digital camera screen, as soon as 72hz or higher is engaged you will notice flickering. As I cannot set the digicam to use 1/72s as shutter speed i cannot be sure it is actually 72hz, but as it flickers it must be certainly different than 60hz. Is there another option besides 72hz? (50hz, 100hz?)

Using this:

Pure cinema when 1080p24 is input

off: 72hz?
standard: 60hz (to answer rods question)
smooth: 60hz
advance: 72hz?

Now the fun part is I notice faster flickering using pure cinema advance than off. Both settings flickers, so none of them are using a 60hz refresh rate, but why are they different? I think advance must be doing some more processing that off doesn't, but the flicker should be at the same speed if both run at 72hz. Maybe as advance is dimmer I am noticing it flickers more but I seriously doubt it.Let's hope anyone with the right equipment can clear this further.

Regards,

Mike
mike911 is offline  
post #266 of 268 Old 07-07-2009, 05:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Rod#S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike911 View Post

Hi everyone, glad I found this thread, it has proven very informative. I own a 8G (508xd - uk model) and have been trying to test if the 8g really engages 72hz when pure cinema is set to off when a 1080p/24 signal is input (from a ps3 in my case). This was a common asumption back in the 8g days. I lack the equipment Bogney Baux uses, but used a digital camera trick i once used to test a crt refresh rate (with a sony h9). I set my camera to shutter priority mode, and set the shutter to 1/60s and zoomed at the screen. The results are highly repeatable. If the panel is in 60hz mode, there will be no flicker on the kuro when looked throught the digital camera screen, as soon as 72hz or higher is engaged you will notice flickering. As I cannot set the digicam to use 1/72s as shutter speed i cannot be sure it is actually 72hz, but as it flickers it must be certainly different than 60hz. Is there another option besides 72hz? (50hz, 100hz?)

Using this:

Pure cinema when 1080p24 is input

off: 72hz?
standard: 60hz (to answer rods question)
smooth: 60hz
advance: 72hz?

Now the fun part is I notice faster flickering using pure cinema advance than off. Both settings flickers, so none of them are using a 60hz refresh rate, but why are they different? I think advance must be doing some more processing that off doesn't, but the flicker should be at the same speed if both run at 72hz. Maybe as advance is dimmer I am noticing it flickers more but I seriously doubt it.Let's hope anyone with the right equipment can clear this further.

Regards,

Mike

Thanks for posting your findings. That's a real bummer what you are seeing with Standard. With my BluRay player because I am seeing judder with Advance I was hoping for another mode that runs 72Hz. There is no judder with Standard but if it is running at 60Hz then it's technically not an ideal setting. Now if Off happens to run at 72Hz that would be my fall back setting but based on the results from the 9gs they are running at 60Hz for all sources but it is possible that our 8Gs do things differently. I wish this wasn't so hard to figure out. With the price these tvs cost you would think Pioneer would show some good will and just come clean showing a very nice level of customer support.

Rod#S is offline  
post #267 of 268 Old 07-07-2009, 07:05 PM
Member
 
mike911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

Thanks for posting your findings. That's a real bummer what you are seeing with Standard. With my BluRay player because I am seeing judder with Advance I was hoping for another mode that runs 72Hz. There is no judder with Standard but if it is running at 60Hz then it's technically not an ideal setting. Now if Off happens to run at 72Hz that would be my fall back setting but based on the results from the 9gs they are running at 60Hz for all sources but it is possible that our 8Gs do things differently. I wish this wasn't so hard to figure out. With the price these tvs cost you would think Pioneer would show some good will and just come clean showing a very nice level of customer support.

I think the judder we notice in PC advance is due to the low 24fps of film and not 3:2 pulldown judder. My other tv set (panny pz85) accepts 24p but always displays it @60hz with pull down, never noticed the same judder I see in the kuro with 3:3 pulldown, 72hz enabled. I think using Standard is ok if you are bothered by 24p judder, it would add 3:2 judder but for most it is preferible and not as distracting as 24p judder.

I was using PC off for 1080p24 before I tried the test I did, now I use advance till further tests are made. Even if both use 72hz, my test indicates they both act different (w/advance flickering faster??, besides being dimmer). And as advance is recommended with 1080p24, it's the setting I use just to be on the safe side. I just cannot understand what advance does different vs off when receiving a 24p signal, I know they both flicker, so they must be using 72hz, they both have the same 24p judder, so both do 3:3 pulldown. What causes the dimming then? And the faster flickering with advance on my test? We might never know for sure I guess.

I love my 8g kuro, the only reason I envy the 9g is not the black levels, but that they fixed the bug with pure cinema advance losing cadence when playing 480i and 1080i sources (maybe it still does lose cadence in the 9g but the panel is locked @72hz, preventing the artifacts that showed on the 8g as it reverted to 60hz). I always thought a new firmware would fix that in the 8g but it never came. Now with pioneer getting out of the tv business I wish they would release the firmware code so I could tinker with it and maybe find a fix.

Mike
mike911 is offline  
post #268 of 268 Old 07-08-2009, 05:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Rod#S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike911 View Post

I think the judder we notice in PC advance is due to the low 24fps of film and not 3:2 pulldown judder. My other tv set (panny pz85) accepts 24p but always displays it @60hz with pull down, never noticed the same judder I see in the kuro with 3:3 pulldown, 72hz enabled. I think using Standard is ok if you are bothered by 24p judder, it would add 3:2 judder but for most it is preferible and not as distracting as 24p judder.

I was using PC off for 1080p24 before I tried the test I did, now I use advance till further tests are made. Even if both use 72hz, my test indicates they both act different (w/advance flickering faster??, besides being dimmer). And as advance is recommended with 1080p24, it's the setting I use just to be on the safe side. I just cannot understand what advance does different vs off when receiving a 24p signal, I know they both flicker, so they must be using 72hz, they both have the same 24p judder, so both do 3:3 pulldown. What causes the dimming then? And the faster flickering with advance on my test? We might never know for sure I guess.

I love my 8g kuro, the only reason I envy the 9g is not the black levels, but that they fixed the bug with pure cinema advance losing cadence when playing 480i and 1080i sources (maybe it still does lose cadence in the 9g but the panel is locked @72hz, preventing the artifacts that showed on the 8g as it reverted to 60hz). I always thought a new firmware would fix that in the 8g but it never came. Now with pioneer getting out of the tv business I wish they would release the firmware code so I could tinker with it and maybe find a fix.

Mike

Yeah it would be great to find out what is really going on because like you said you can see differences with your camera between the 2 modes so something is up. I agree there should be a way to get the fix so it can be applied to the tv's. Pioneer should post the serial number split for the tvs that are working right and the ones that are not and even if it means only the dealers can apply the fix so be it, just make it available.

Rod#S is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off