Pioneer 9G Kuro Comparison Chart: xx20, 500/600M, 111/151, 101/141, 500/600A, LX-XX90 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 525 Old 03-12-2009, 06:25 PM
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SoSo, wonderful job with the chart! I may have talked one of my friends into a 600M before their gone, and I directed him to your chart first. Just one small correction, neither the 111 or 151 have dynamic mode. I have owned them both (upgraded the 111to the 151 about a month ago), so I'm positive on this. Out of curiousity, what does the dynamic mode look like on the 101/141?? Is it closer to Performance (standard) or Sport, or is it something quite different?? I realize it is probably a terrible AV mode, but I still wish it was on the set just for fun.

Oh, and even though its been stated before (late to the party I guess, sorry I'm on call!), Turbe is a tremendous help to the forum. I, along with many others on this forum, would vouch for his knowledge!!
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post #92 of 525 Old 03-12-2009, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSo View Post

The internal of the 141 and the 151 should be the very best components from Pioneer. However, the 141 is actually one up the 151 because Pioneer claims the 141's plasma display panels are hand picked of the best crop of the best. It actually comes with a certificate. So if you don't need tuner, stand, and speakers (141 has no amp.), then the 141 is the king of the king.

Thanks. The other question is also rather critical in my decision. Should I be concerned that Pioneer is leaving this business? I assume all warranties with be fine as the company will still be around. How about replacement parts if I ever need it? Any comparisons to Panasonics, etc?

Thanks,
Steve
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post #93 of 525 Old 03-12-2009, 08:51 PM
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I own an 141 myself, but when I hear about hand-picked parts, It makes me think of the folks who grab our scrap TVs and such off the curb during spring cleaning.
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post #94 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 05:40 AM
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Not spilled milk or nothing as well since I have a 151, not a 141, but in relation to the 101/141 vs 111/151 "better manufacturing" idea, I doubt much beyond a certificate from Pioneer and a quick check to see if everything is working is the real difference between the sets. It seems just as many people with 141 have had issues with their sets as 151 (crossing my fingers no futures issues with my 151!). After owning a 111, I actually had more issues so far with that set (more dithering, buzz) than with my 151. 141 people seem to have the same issues so far and I cannot foresee the sets being built on completely different display lines in a plant with a "personal checker" due to cost. I think the real difference between the sets is in application. Just my two cents on the Sig vs Elite situation...
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post #95 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhp1675 View Post

SoSo, wonderful job with the chart! I may have talked one of my friends into a 600M before their gone, and I directed him to your chart first. Just one small correction, neither the 111 or 151 have dynamic mode. I have owned them both (upgraded the 111to the 151 about a month ago), so I'm positive on this. Out of curiousity, what does the dynamic mode look like on the 101/141?? Is it closer to Performance (standard) or Sport, or is it something quite different?? I realize it is probably a terrible AV mode, but I still wish it was on the set just for fun.

Oh, and even though its been stated before (late to the party I guess, sorry I'm on call!), Turbe is a tremendous help to the forum. I, along with many others on this forum, would vouch for his knowledge!!

Thanks for the info. Mis-information on my part. Chart corrected. According to the manual, Performance (standard) is for viewing at normal bright room and dynamic is for maximum contrast with very sharp image. No idea what exactly it is for.
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post #96 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

I own an 141 myself, but when I hear about hand-picked parts, It makes me think of the folks who grab our scrap TVs and such off the curb during spring cleaning.

What does hand-picked means anyway? Do these panels get a grade rating then they are set aside to use for the more expensive sets?

In the semiconductor fabrication world this is called "binning" and it depends on the yields. So if you have a good process and all your wafers are grade A, then you sell some grade A chips marked as cheaper models.

Do they do the same thing for PDPs?
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post #97 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saz25 View Post

Thanks. The other question is also rather critical in my decision. Should I be concerned that Pioneer is leaving this business? I assume all warranties with be fine as the company will still be around. How about replacement parts if I ever need it? Any comparisons to Panasonics, etc?

Thanks,
Steve

That has been debated so many time and everyone has their own opinion. I my opinion, Pioneer will honor their Plasma warranty as long as they are around much like NEC and Fujitsu. However, people were worried about Pioneer's survival as a company as well. To be very honest with you, I have absolutely no idea Pioneer is going to make it or not (I hope they do but in this state of economy ... ). But I think they will be around for at least 1 or 2 years which covers the manufacturer warranty. In term of parts availability, the biggest worry I have is the glass panel itself because 1, it is the most expansive; 2, that is what they stop making. With all the shattered glass during delivery, they should have plenty of other parts.

In terms of Panasonics, I also created a comparison chart for all the north American models here. Since most of the large size one are not available yet (12G), the information is still very much incomplete. However, the G10 professional review by Chad B looks quite promising. In your case if I were you, I am assuming money is not too much of an issue if you are looking at the 151/141, I will wait for the V10 series (58" or 65") if you are worried about Pioneer's future. However, bear in mind, I believe the 12G Panasonics are not at the Pioneer Elite level yet. Why?

Data is from Chad B's review of the G10 and D-Nice review of the 111.
  • Black Level: G10=0.0079fL; 111=0.001fL
  • Contrast Ratio: G10=7399; 111=17,800:1
  • ANSI: G10=3892; 111=13,833:1
  • 24p Material: G10=48 Hz "still flickers"; 111=72 Hz
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post #98 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nambit View Post

I own an 141 myself, but when I hear about hand-picked parts, It makes me think of the folks who grab our scrap TVs and such off the curb during spring cleaning.

Yes, a person reached into the bin and picked a part! Viola, hand picked parts

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post #99 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 08:39 AM
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Did someone say that the Pro-111FD has no dynamic mode? I was going to buy one to replace my 5010FD, which I only watch in dynamic. Does the 5020FD have a dynamic mode?
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post #100 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARQMAGE View Post

Did someone say that the Pro-111FD has no dynamic mode? I was going to buy one to replace my 5010FD, which I only watch in dynamic. Does the 5020FD have a dynamic mode?

Yes and Yes.
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post #101 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 09:16 AM
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Can anyone answer rather the 5020 has a 10bit panel?
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post #102 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Yes, a person reached into the bin and picked a part! Viola, hand picked parts

- Rich

Yup, that's basically what I was thinking
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post #103 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSo View Post

Thanks for the info. Mis-information on my part. Chart corrected. According to the manual, Performance (standard) is for viewing at normal bright room and dynamic is for maximum contrast with very sharp image. No idea what exactly it is for.

You have the 600M, right?? Once you get it tucked away, send some pics of the difference between the two. I often use either Performance or Pure (can't wait for ISF Day once break-in is done!!), but wonder how bright & sharp Dynamic is on the 141/600Ms...
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post #104 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhp1675 View Post

You have the 600M, right?? Once you get it tucked away, send some pics of the difference between the two. I often use either Performance or Pure (can't wait for ISF Day once break-in is done!!), but wonder how bright & sharp Dynamic is on the 141/600Ms...

Actually, I don't have any (yet). Just got the CFO (wife) approval for a 60" TV and the dealer I want to buy it from is out of stocks. I am in the process of searching now.
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post #105 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Yes, a person reached into the bin and picked a part! Viola, hand picked parts

- Rich

There is more human scrutiny (not just diagnostics) on the glass for the Sigs and on final assembly inspection. There is also additional testing performed.

The Sigs were meant to be a limited run with low quantities.

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post #106 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

There is more human scrutiny (not just diagnostics) on the glass for the Sigs and on final assembly inspection. There is also additional testing performed.

Without disputing this already hotly disputed topic, I wonder what benefit it offers in real world terms? It is not like the other models are not high in quality, although IMHO, in some ways signaling out the Signature models as being built from "hand picked" components implies this (i.e. it is a questionable marketing strategy, at leat to this marketing layman's ears).
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post #107 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSo View Post

Actually, I don't have any (yet). Just got the CFO (wife) approval for a 60" TV and the dealer I want to buy it from is out of stocks. I am in the process of searching now.

Well the "CFO" approval is the first good step, I'm guessing $4-5K on a set isn't like trying to sell a toaster to her so, congrats to you sir Suppose I'm lucky I'm not married yet, I guess being a poor, single physician has its advantages after all

Your still planning on the 600M though, right??
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post #108 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhp1675 View Post

Well the "CFO" approval is the first good step, I'm guessing $4-5K on a set isn't like trying to sell a toaster to her so, congrats to you sir Suppose I'm lucky I'm not married yet, I guess being a poor, single physician has its advantages after all

Your still planning on the 600M though, right??

Yep. The 600M is it. I even bought the Pro-151 speakers already (on ebay). Well, that is another story.
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post #109 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoSo View Post

Yep. The 600M is it. I even bought the Pro-151 speakers already (on ebay). Well, that is another story.

Really I did too. Did I beat you to it?

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post #110 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Really I did too. Did I beat you to it?

- Rich

LOL, I think you did.
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post #111 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 01:38 PM
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There might be one more item to add.
The bezel appears a little different on the 500M than the 5020, it is a thicker coating. At one time, there maybe someone can weigh in on this.

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post #112 of 525 Old 03-13-2009, 05:41 PM
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At the risk of being totally alienated for my eccentricities in terms of my PQ tastes, I must concede; I only watch the Kuro in dynamic mode. I've heard that 5020FD lacks minute detail due to its ubiquitous and totally inextinguishable NR technology; that basically kills it as a purchase for me as I am a detail fiend. Is it possible to achieve a PQ similar if not better than the dynamic mode on my 5010FD with the PRO-111FD? Please help; I'm supposed to go and purchase the Elite tomorrow and I'm trying to justify the purchase to myself. I like the punchy, color imbued and high contrast image the torch mode effects. Thanx.
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post #113 of 525 Old 03-14-2009, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARQMAGE View Post

At the risk of being totally alienated for my eccentricities in terms of my PQ tastes, I must concede; I only watch the Kuro in dynamic mode. I've heard that 5020FD lacks minute detail due to its ubiquitous and totally inextinguishable NR technology; that basically kills it as a purchase for me as I am a detail fiend. Is it possible to achieve a PQ similar if not better than the dynamic mode on my 5010FD with the PRO-111FD? Please help; I'm supposed to go and purchase the Elite tomorrow and I'm trying to justify the purchase to myself. I like the punchy, color imbued and high contrast image the torch mode effects. Thanx.

Hmm, maybe Performance mode would get you close, but I'm not sure. Sport mode appears brighter, but it always ends up looking alien to me. Certainly you would want to be in Color Space 1 with close to 40 contrast, though. Once you get beyond 40 for contrast, the picture quality diminishes, and it is noticeable, unfortunately. I like high, punchy contrast as well with certain material (animation)...
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post #114 of 525 Old 03-14-2009, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARQMAGE View Post

At the risk of being totally alienated for my eccentricities in terms of my PQ tastes, I must concede; I only watch the Kuro in dynamic mode. I've heard that 5020FD lacks minute detail due to its ubiquitous and totally inextinguishable NR technology; that basically kills it as a purchase for me as I am a detail fiend. Is it possible to achieve a PQ similar if not better than the dynamic mode on my 5010FD with the PRO-111FD? Please help; I'm supposed to go and purchase the Elite tomorrow and I'm trying to justify the purchase to myself. I like the punchy, color imbued and high contrast image the torch mode effects. Thanx.

If you're itching to get the 111 - do it. It is gorgeous. Optimum looks pretty "punchy." Because the Elite has additional pro adjustments, you should be able to take one of the other AV settings and dial in something as good or better than a 5010 or 5020 in Dynamic.

The prospect of running any KURO in torch mode does seem to run counter to the purpose of having such a capable set though. Kinda like a finger-painting version of the Mona Lisa.

...TV
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post #115 of 525 Old 03-15-2009, 04:41 AM
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Yeah or Neah on this? ISFccc (Day, Night, Auto)

Didn't someone say they figured out the codes for this on the M?

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Originally Posted by ndisgii View Post

Thats awesome news indeed, as long as he is willing to share it with everyone or at least calibrators. I truely hope it is not only for people that buy from him. I will be very hesitant to pay for any type of calibration now without it being enabled, knowing that it is available by code. Hmmm.....

I would like to know this. I am about to order an M.

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post #116 of 525 Old 03-15-2009, 06:23 AM
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It was false info. This might happen in the future, but dont buy it just for that reason because it probobly wont happen.

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Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

Yeah or Neah on this? ISFccc (Day, Night, Auto)

Didn't someone say they figured out the codes for this on the M?



I would like to know this. I am about to order an M.

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post #117 of 525 Old 03-17-2009, 05:44 PM
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Hi,
I'm starting to have second thoughts about the 141. I am starting to consider the 6020.

Here are some of my thoughts.

1) The HMG option might be kinda neat to be able to connect to a PC on my home network and play movies. I guess the ethernet connection on the 141 is only meant for setup. True?

2) Does anyone have any picture quality comparisons of these two models? I looked on the Pioneer site but couldn't find those details. I'd like to know if there are differences and whether they are noticable.

3) The USB port on the 6020 could be useful to play videos or slide shows, something you can't do on the 141.

4) A downside (sort of) the fact that the 6020 is about 1.5" more depth.

5) I don't need the speakers on the 6020 as I have a home theater, but they could be removed easily. True?

6) You can probably get a 6020 cheaper than a 141. True?

7) The 141 seems more adjustable PQ-wise, but would I do that and would it make much of a difference?

Sorry to ramble but I thought I was set on the 141 last week and now I am starting to rethink.

Your thoughts?
thanks,
Steve
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post #118 of 525 Old 03-17-2009, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by saz25 View Post

Hi,
I'm starting to have second thoughts about the 141. I am starting to consider the 6020.

Here are some of my thoughts.

1) The HMG option might be kinda neat to be able to connect to a PC on my home network and play movies. I guess the ethernet connection on the 141 is only meant for setup. True?

2) Does anyone have any picture quality comparisons of these two models? I looked on the Pioneer site but couldn't find those details. I'd like to know if there are differences and whether they are noticable.

3) The USB port on the 6020 could be useful to play videos or slide shows, something you can't do on the 141.

4) A downside (sort of) the fact that the 6020 is about 1.5" more depth.

5) I don't need the speakers on the 6020 as I have a home theater, but they could be removed easily. True?

6) You can probably get a 6020 cheaper than a 141. True?

7) The 141 seems more adjustable PQ-wise, but would I do that and would it make much of a difference?

Sorry to ramble but I thought I was set on the 141 last week and now I am starting to rethink.

Your thoughts?
thanks,
Steve

Dont forget the 600M
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post #119 of 525 Old 03-23-2009, 11:56 AM
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Im seriously considering the 600M. Is it really like the elite without the stand and speakers for the most part? Performance the same? how much do elite speakers cost? Thanks in advance.
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post #120 of 525 Old 03-23-2009, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrTAPOUT View Post

Im seriously considering the 600M. Is it really like the elite without the stand and speakers for the most part? Performance the same? how much do elite speakers cost? Thanks in advance.

It is indeed a 141FD without the ISFccc Day/Night modes, and with a few less physical inputs for the most part. Just look at the comparison chart
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