Panasonic Premiere TH-65VX100U Review - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 03-08-2009, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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on www.Hometheatermag.com , still not able to compete with last years Kuro PDPs, even the 8G Kuros have better blacks, this PDP has no tuner no speakers, no individual color controls no HDMI 1.3a, and the list goes on and on, yes it is a great PDP but for $10,000 it falls a bit short in my book, and only available through home Audio Video installers.

Quote from the review: I was unable to view this set directly to a Pioneer Kuro or a Sony XBR8 in time for this review. Still, the Panasonic Premiere clearly doesn't deliver the same sensation of the inky, infinite blackness of space behind the stars that the Pioneers can. On this display, this also translates to a slightly less consistently rich,dark look on less challenging but otherwise dark scenes with few bright highlights. While the black letterbox bars on 2.35:1 films looked respectably dark, they where more visible than on a Pioneer. The Panasonic Premiere's shadow detail is superb, it's arguably as good or better than those other sets. "It's a great PDP but the question begs is it worth the premium " this is my take not the reviewers.
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post #2 of 30 Old 03-08-2009, 04:10 PM
 
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inky, infinite blackness of space behind the stars that the Pioneers can

That must be on the Elite, because on my 5020, I yet too see what's supposed to be infinite blacks. I even see a light glow sometimes. Also, I see reddish tint in my blacks, granted I have done any calibrations while I'm allowing the set to break in.
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post #3 of 30 Old 03-08-2009, 04:12 PM
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The review on www.avforums.com makes interesting reading.
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post #4 of 30 Old 03-08-2009, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

That must be on the Elite, because on my 5020, If yet too see what's supposed to be infinite blacks. I even see a light glow sometimes. Also, I see reddish tint in my blacks, granted I have done any calibrations while I'm allowing the set to break in.

The blacks on an elite and non elite are identical and neither are "infinite"

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post #5 of 30 Old 03-08-2009, 10:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

The blacks on an elite and non elite are identical and neither are "infinite"

That's what I thought.
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post #6 of 30 Old 03-08-2009, 11:04 PM
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The guy who calibrated my 151FD told me he had calibrated a $10K Panasonic 65" plasma recently , it must have been a TH-65VX100U. Anyhow, I asked him if it was close in performance to my Pioneer, he said nope , the 9g Kuro is still the king in blacks. He said something about the colors as well.
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post #7 of 30 Old 03-08-2009, 11:23 PM
 
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the 9g Kuro is still the king in blacks

Does deeper black means better picture? Not really.
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post #8 of 30 Old 03-09-2009, 04:46 AM
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Auditor, I am sure you have done this but I did the following. I turned off the light sensor and use Standard mode with brightness at about +2 and contrast at 37. I also have calibrated gray scale.

I know we shared a "brighness" concern which fo rme is ALMOST satisfied with this configuration. Plus I find the blacks to be one of the only things I agree with most of the kurophiles. I definately see mine as "inky". Anyway, what are your overall feelings so far?

Just curios Auditor: If you turn your set on with a black background, you do see the black drop to much darker after about 6-8 seconds right? If it is not doing that, something is wrong.

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post #9 of 30 Old 03-09-2009, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

If you turn your set on with a black background, you do see the black drop to much darker after about 6-8 seconds right? If it is not doing that, something is wrong.

That is the panel turning off, its not representative of the real black level because if even one pixel needs to be on the panel must turn on.
When the panel is actually on its not black in a dark room.
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post #10 of 30 Old 03-09-2009, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

That is the panel turning off, its not representative of the real black level because if even one pixel needs to be on the panel must turn on.
When the panel is actually on its not black in a dark room.


He is not talking about when the TV is off. My panny does the same thing when you initially turn it on. Just before a picture is displayed after you turn the set on, the screen is moderately dark. The screen will then adjust itself even darker depending on the picture and contrast settings of that input (I am assuming), and then the picture is displayed all within about 6 or so seconds.
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post #11 of 30 Old 03-09-2009, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Does deeper black means better picture? Not really.

Obviously no, if things like sharpness are junk and colours are wonky...but if you have fairly accurate colour and good sharpness then deeper black does mean better PQ since it will give the image more richness and image depth.

I used to think the whole thing with black level was overblown years ago when I used to have LCD front projectors but then I got the JVC RS1 then my current RS2 (and I also have a kuro 42") and can say how important a good black level is to PQ and would never want a display with inferior black to what I have now with the kuro and the RS-2 projector.

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post #12 of 30 Old 03-09-2009, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

The guy who calibrated my 151FD told me he had calibrated a $10K Panasonic 65" plasma recently , it must have been a TH-65VX100U. Anyhow, I asked him if it was close in performance to my Pioneer, he said nope , the 9g Kuro is still the king in blacks. He said something about the colors as well.

Did he say something about the size

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post #13 of 30 Old 03-12-2009, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SATM View Post

The review on www.avforums.com makes interesting reading.

It's interesting how the reviewer suggests the phosphor trail is reduced on this Panasonic plasma, that's one of my only concerns with the Kuro's. The Kuro's, to me, seem to have more of a trail than other plasma's, I am not sure why, but I notice them much more on those, even when watching their demo disc, when the sword goes across the screen, black silver and green.
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post #14 of 30 Old 03-27-2009, 01:18 PM
 
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Did not want to start another thread and was wondering if anyone has one or got one of these 65VX100U or the 50VX100U.
Just trying to do some research and did not find anything posted yet.
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post #15 of 30 Old 03-27-2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ROMAN O View Post

Did not want to start another thread and was wondering if anyone has one or got one of these 65VX100U or the 50VX100U.
Just trying to do some research and did not find anything posted yet.

I didn't know they had a 50 inch version of this set. Do you know the price?
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post #16 of 30 Old 03-27-2009, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by agustus View Post

I didn't know they had a 50 inch version of this set. Do you know the price?

Can only talk LIST price on here per rules. $5000 list and yes they are available just like the 65.
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post #17 of 30 Old 03-27-2009, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

The blacks on an elite and non elite are identical and neither are "infinite"

Actually the Elite has slightly deeper blacks so they aren't identical. It is however highly unlikely that one would be able to tell the difference in black levels unless the two were side by side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Does deeper black means better picture? Not really.

-10

I must admit, I'm curious why you even bother posting on these forums especially because most people have you on their ignore lists. It's obvious you don't employ reason or logic in any of your posts so I don't know why you make these "claims".

EDIT: For an AV pragmatist you sure aren't very pragmatic about SED's future.
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post #18 of 30 Old 03-27-2009, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideogeek View Post

Actually the Elite has slightly deeper blacks so they aren't identical. It is however highly unlikely that one would be able to tell the difference in black levels unless the two were side by side.



-10

I must admit, I'm curious why you even bother posting on these forums especially because most people have you on their ignore lists. It's obvious you don't employ reason or logic in any of your posts so I don't know why you make these "claims".

Why do think that the Elites have a better black level? They should be identical in that regard. If you're seeing a difference I'd chalk it up to slight variation either from panel to panel or amongst your measuring instruments.

As for Auditor's comment, better blacks = higher contrast ratio. IMO, there is no single aspect of a display's performance more important than contrast ratio.
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post #19 of 30 Old 03-27-2009, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Why do think that the Elites have a better black level? They should be identical in that regard. If you're seeing a difference I'd chalk it up to slight variation either from panel to panel or amongst your measuring instruments.

As for Auditor's comment, better blacks = higher contrast ratio. IMO, there is no single aspect of a display's performance more important than contrast ratio.

You could be right (that its simply Unit to Unit sample variations) but I remember reading on a few sites like CNET and Home Theater Mag that the Elite had a slightly lower black level than its Non-Elite counterpart. Ofcourse considering how deep KURO's blacks are, one might have to question the accuracy of the instruments and thus the authenticity of the measurements.

I would say that both the TV's Color and Contrast are important aspects to operation and neither one is more important than the other... That's just me though
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post #20 of 30 Old 03-27-2009, 06:31 PM
 
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I was trying to get some feedback on VX lets not get the thread shut down
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post #21 of 30 Old 03-27-2009, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideogeek View Post

You could be right (that its simply Unit to Unit sample variations) but I remember reading on a few sites like CNET and Home Theater Mag that the Elite had a slightly lower black level than its Non-Elite counterpart. Ofcourse considering how deep KURO's blacks are, one might have to question the accuracy of the instruments and thus the authenticity of the measurements.

I would say that both the TV's Color and Contrast are important aspects to operation and neither one is more important than the other... That's just me though

It's the opposite.. reread those reviews

http://www.hometheatermag.com/plasma...tv/index4.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Home Theater Magazine View Post

ll of the measurements here were taken in the Pure mode, adjusted for the most accurate picture. The Energy Save control was set to off. The full-on/full-off contrast ratio above speaks for itself. The Pioneer KURO PDP-6020FD we reviewed in the September 2008 issue (the latest KURO 60-inch standard-range model) actually had a lower measured black level—0.00 ft-L. But this difference appears to be strictly a result of unit-to-unit variation. (We’re dealing with very small numbers here.) Again, this is at the very threshold of our test instruments’ published specs for accuracy.


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post #22 of 30 Old 03-28-2009, 04:19 AM
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would say that both the TV's Color and Contrast are important aspects to operation and neither one is more important than the other... That's just me though

They are both of extreme importance, but I'd give the edge ever-so-slightly to contrast, personally (and the ISF agrees).
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post #23 of 30 Old 03-28-2009, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Does deeper black means better picture? Not really.

Why would you even spend your money on a KURO, if that's what you think?

Anyway, a proper calibration should get rid of the red bias in your lower greyscale.


Back on topic, here is an italian review of the 65VX100. Some figures (along with those of a 50" KURO 9G reviewed by the same guy, with the same equipment, for comparison):

min. black level: 0,012 [KURO: 0,003]
max black level: 0,021 [KURO: 0,004]

min. white level: 116 cd/m2 [KURO: 59.5 cd/m2]
max white level: 253 cd/m2 [KURO: 137.5 cd/m2]

contrast ratio: 21.083:1 [KURO: 45.833:1]

The reviewer says the gamma curve is more consistent on the Panasonic, which doesn't eat out details in the first step from 0% to 5% like the KURO did. The color gamut, on the other hand, was much more accurate on the KURO and the Panny offers no CMS to work with.

Conclusion: "The Kuro still wins when it comes to absolute contrast and first class black level. Nonetheless, if I were to choose between the two philosophies, I would pick Panasonic's, with a slightly worse black level but lots more shades of grey and details in low lights which will turn your mouth agape." (translation by yours truly, on the fly)
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post #24 of 30 Old 03-28-2009, 07:28 AM
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A UK dealer has advised that the VX100 is taking a lot of running in,which has delayed calibration.
He also states that it's black level is reminiscent of that of Pioneer's 8G series,but that the VX100 has an immense amount of shadow detail.
One wonders if Pioneer consciously decided to pursue deeper blacks with the 9Gs at the expense of shadow detail.
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post #25 of 30 Old 03-28-2009, 09:39 AM
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Re-reading the HD Guru review of the TH-65VX100U, can't see any strong criticism of its color gamut. This archived one (link) points out the 100U's color primaries are close to the wider DCI (digital cinema) standard and the 50" Pioneer Elite Kuro he measured. Thought I recalled the review called the 100U's color "inaccurate" originally; maybe I'm just merging reviews from other sources.

Most reviews mention the bypass mode for using an external video processor. If the color is "inaccurate", seems that buyng a costly external processor to correct color primaries would be unacceptable if you wanted accurate color. Also, if Panasonic isn't using the best Gennum/Sigma-Designs or similar-quality processor, it would be interesting to see what processing tests it passes/fails compared to processors in other high-end hardware. For example, Greg Rogers' reviews of higher-end front projectors indicated those with newer Gennum processor chips caused less resolution pumping than other models. Haven't read any complaints from plasma owners about such static-to-motion blurring of images. -- John
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post #26 of 30 Old 04-03-2009, 10:01 AM
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^^^Checking CNET's review, based on measurements like HD Guru's, they point out the VX100's color gamut is inaccurate. That results in 'neon-like' greens, they say, citing several examples, while noting that turning the color down for less 'pop' reduces saturation too much.

An external scaler with a full color management system (CMS) could apparently tone down color to the Rec709 HD standard. Anyone know of a separate color processor, other than the ~$6k Radiance (latest model), with a complete CMS?

Who's selling the VX100, even within the CEDIA community? I've filled out a form at Panasonic's professional site indicating interest in the model, and asked a Manhattan CEDIA firm to contact me. So far, silence. [EDIT: Finally reached someone at Panny who gave me several NYC-area dealers. Checking out a 65VX100 tomorrow.]-- John
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post #27 of 30 Old 04-23-2009, 09:13 AM
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John

You mentioned in a couple other threads that you did get one of these. When you get a chance, can you provide us with a review?

Thanks.

Rich B.
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post #28 of 30 Old 05-08-2009, 11:39 AM
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^^^I've scattered commentaries in various AVS threads since acquiring a TH-65VX100U about one month ago, replacing my year-2000 64" 9"-guns 1080i CRT RPTV (Philips 64PH9905). For example, this post compares higher-resolution travelogue-type viewing, and includes a sublink to a discussion of the special video processor for the VX100s. There are various reviews on the web for the 65VX100, using instruments, but haven't gotten into calibration here yet.

Also, being new to plasmas, can't say whether the 65VX100's reported 60,000:1 contrast ratio is noticeably better than the 50VX100's 40,000:1 CR, or what difference, if any, its reported 18-bit video processing makes. Can't really compare my 65VX100's black level with my former 1080i CRT RPTV; both had/have low levels; scenes I've viewed having an apparent blackness, not dark gray. There's obviously a tinted panel covering, which greatly cuts room reflections--unlike my former CRT RPTV that had a clear-plastic protective cover, requiring minimal lighting for serious viewing to avoid reflections. Don't plan on getting into back-and-forths over Kuros vs 65VX100s black levels!

Can say many images on the 65VX100 are strikingly crisp and clear. The clichéd through-a-window effect often crops up with live sports or travelogues. And it's more amazing than with my former 64" CRT RPTV--both normally viewed at ~8' to achieve ~33-degree-wide images. With really crisp images, like live shots of golfers teeing off, briefly moving to ~4' from the screen, with no visible artifacts, the through-the-window effect almost becomes 3D-like. (Viewing all video from NYC's all-digital TWC, and outlined here why I switched to using a YPbPr input rather than my initial HDMI hookup.)

Started a thread regarding the VX100's DCI-color gamut, but so far haven't discovered what, if anything, should be done. Believe my last post there mentions someone in this forum who has carefully measured 'extended color' with an earlier Panny series and seems to conclude this color is used only when cinema mode is active. Colors on this VX100 sure don't look unnatural. Grass on the live golf shots appears 'naturally green' as on my former CRT RPTV--not the yellowish greens attributed to inaccurate color on some JVC front projectors. Reds are quite strong, but I can adjust flesh tones for normal appearance. With ~15 memory settings, I've set 5 so far, usually for diminishing color intensity and more green tint, for viewing too-strong colors, like CSI:Miami or some 24p movies. Also, to avoid image retention, I've been expanding 4:3 images to fill the screen, or just selecting a non-active input for a black screen--during ads, for example.

No Blu-ray viewing yet (no player), but as the Blu-ray selection expands I'll no doubt invest in it. [Edit: bought a Sony PS3, summer '09] -- John
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post #29 of 30 Old 01-12-2010, 09:30 AM
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Bump for current info?

bob
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post #30 of 30 Old 01-12-2010, 11:10 AM
 
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Bump for current info?

bob

I would like to hear some more too, but most likely wont get much info since the product is restricted and most think they aren't any deals on them. I do know those who have one love it.
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