Pioneer KRP Shipments and Damage Tracking Thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lakebum431 View Post

I also think it is absurd to have to pay an additional dime. If they won't replace it for free, I'd dispute the charge with your credit card company. Sponsor or not, that is BS.

So who should be out the $2000 here? Pioneer? Value Electronics? The shipping company? Me?

It's got to be someone, and everyone can make a reasonable case that it shouldn't be them.

--Eric
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post #242 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:16 PM
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maybe robert needs to fight harder for you against the carrier? first off, there is no way that you would go deliberately go damage the screen on purpose, in the corner of the screen no less, within 3 hours. I think if robert put enough pressure on the carrier, the carrier would do the right thing, but I am not in anybody's shoes, so this is all a "hoping" situation.

I know that if I was in eric's situation, I would not be happy at all to fork over another $400, through no fault of my own.
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post #243 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ndisgii View Post

OK, I just wanted to make sure that we werent talking about days in between. That is unacceptable IMO for him to try and charge you. Is there something I am missing here before jumping the gun? Anyone else think this sounds right?

That sounds completely unreasonable to me as well. It sounds to me more like your getting squished for more money rather than helped with a damaged item that was sent to you. "Robert initially said $1000, but he then said he'd ponder it overnight and talk to me tomorrow." Than "I'd pay $400--basically the cost of shipping the broken one back and getting a replacement." Maybe I'm completely of base with my assessment of your situation but to first ask for 1000$ 55% of what you payed for the TV to get a replacement, than dialing it down to 400$ 23% of what you played seems completely insane!

On their web site they are quoting delivery price of a 500M as $175, so 400$ to ship back doesn't make sense. It cost 175$ to ship one way, than 400$ to ship the other? Did the weight double in the few days you had the TV?


I just received a damaged 111FD myself, I was lucky enough to catch the damage before signing for it, because it was pretty obvious but the company I'm getting my 111FD from, allows 48 hours to contact them and return items that had damage not seen at the time of delivery.

Sorry to hear about your bad luck, I hope everything works out for you.
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post #244 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by eelton View Post

So who should be out the $2000 here? Pioneer? Value Electronics? The shipping company? Me?

It's got to be someone, and everyone can make a reasonable case that it shouldn't be them.

Unless the product that you ordered arrived in perfect condition then that is for the selling company (in this case Value Electronics) to work out, as that is their business. Unless of course they are in the business of selling broken plasmas and that is what you intended to purchase.
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post #245 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by eelton View Post

So who should be out the $2000 here? Pioneer? Value Electronics? The shipping company? Me?

It's got to be someone, and everyone can make a reasonable case that it shouldn't be them.

it should be pioneer in my opinion. isn't there something that dealer can do to file with the distributor, so that no money would be lost in exchange of the broken set? just curious. I am no dealer of course, but I thought there would be a policy like this. if someone who is a dealer that can clarify this, that'd be great.
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post #246 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:22 PM
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Eelton, sorry about what happened, but let this be a lesson to everyone to never let the shipper leave your home until you at least plug in the panel. That is the only way to really know if it has a crack.

Had you done that, there would be no question as to who is responsible. That would be the shipping company, and the shipper would not pay, their insurer would and you and Robert and Pioneer are all off the hook.

I think Robert is bending over backwards for you in this case. Although I am sympathetic to your plight, you had control over the outcome. Live and learn.

This case does bring up an interesting question though as so many of the 600's have been cracked, how does the home shipper know that it was not already cracked before they even laid a finger on it. Technically it could have been damaged in a previous shipping leg or even in Pio's factory. I guess thats why everyone pays the insurance premiums and then every so often the insurer has to pay.
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post #247 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:24 PM
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I'm telling you if they don't replace it for free just dispute the charge with your credit card and you won't have to pay a dime.
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post #248 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

Eelton, sorry about what happened, but let this be a lesson to everyone to never let the shipper leave your home until you at least plug in the panel. That is the only way to really know if it has a crack.

Had you done that, there would be no question as to who is responsible. That would be the shipping company, and the shipper would not pay, their insurer would and you and Robert and Pioneer are all off the hook.

I think Robert is bending over backwards for you in this case. Although I am sympathetic to your plight, you had control over the outcome. Live and learn.

This case does bring up an interesting question though as so many of the 600's have been cracked, how does the home shipper know that it was not already cracked before they even laid a finger on it. Technically it could have been damaged in a previous shipping leg or even in Pio's factory. I guess thats why everyone pays the insurance premiums and then every so often the insurer has to pay.

On both boxes of units I received it had a bright orange sticker saying inspect for damage and that you have 24 hours to contact the shipper in case of damage. Therefore, if you contact your dealer and they contact the shipper within 24 hours, you should not be charged for the damage. Who is at fault is not your concern - in this case the customer (yourself) should not be held responsible if following the policies of the dealer and shipper.
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post #249 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

Had you done that, there would be no question as to who is responsible. That would be the shipping company, and the shipper would not pay, their insurer would and you and Robert and Pioneer are all off the hook...This case does bring up an interesting question though as so many of the 600's have been cracked, how does the home shipper know that it was not already cracked before they even laid a finger on it. Technically it could have been damaged in a previous shipping leg or even in Pio's factory. I guess thats why everyone pays the insurance premiums and then every so often the insurer has to pay.

All good points. Interestingly, during the conference call with Robert, the shipping company, and me, the rep eventually said they would be unlikely to pay the claim even if I hadn't signed for it, making the argument you state above. And that's understandable, since there were various handlers along the way who could have damaged it, or it could have been cracked before leaving the Pioneer factory.

Having said that, your statement about insurance is important--doesn't the carrier have insurance for things like this? And isn't it in their interest to do the right thing? Robert told me he was thinking of not shipping any more plasma TVs out if this can happen. So everyone would lose business.

For what it's worth, I just e-mailed Pioneer's customer service. Judging from my past experience with customer service (in general), it won't surprise me if I don't receive a response.

--Eric
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post #250 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

Eelton, sorry about what happened, but let this be a lesson to everyone to never let the shipper leave your home until you at least plug in the panel. That is the only way to really know if it has a crack.

Had you done that, there would be no question as to who is responsible. That would be the shipping company, and the shipper would not pay, their insurer would and you and Robert and Pioneer are all off the hook.

I think Robert is bending over backwards for you in this case. Although I am sympathetic to your plight, you had control over the outcome. Live and learn.

This case does bring up an interesting question though as so many of the 600's have been cracked, how does the home shipper know that it was not already cracked before they even laid a finger on it. Technically it could have been damaged in a previous shipping leg or even in Pio's factory. I guess thats why everyone pays the insurance premiums and then every so often the insurer has to pay.

BS

Most shippers will not stay while you inspect the TV for cracks let alone wait for you to set it up and plug it in. It's not the buyers fault and he should not have to pay a dime.
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post #251 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by woody888 View Post

maybe robert needs to fight harder for you against the carrier? first off, there is no way that you would go deliberately go damage the screen on purpose, in the corner of the screen no less, within 3 hours.

Oh really, lets say (totally hypothetically, I am not accusing anyone) that he has spotted a few dead pixels and realizes there is no remedy for that as there is no gaurantee of a pixel perfect panel, so he dreams up a scheme to tap it with a hammer to make a crack. 3 hours is a long time, I could not wait 3 minutes to plug in. So its plausible and thats why the shipper is washing their hands and they have every right to. It also plausible that he couldn't wait for help and tried to hang the panel by himself and he dropped it (hypothetical).
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post #252 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:40 PM
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Looking at their website, I find it kinda scary they don't have anything about a return policy or anything of that nature in writing, that would have been a big red flag for me. You might be **** out of luck and kinda at their mercy because there isn't really anything in writing to protect you from something like this. I do find it ironic they proudly post better business bureau all of their site.
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post #253 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by plasmaowner View Post

BS

Most shippers will not stay while you inspect the TV for cracks let alone wait for you to set it up and plug it in. It's not the buyers fault and he should not have to pay a dime.

I gave the driver a $20, he stayed and helped me hang it on the wall, he did not ask me to sign until after I checked it out, and I would not have signed until I plugged it in. If they wouldn't agree with those terms, I would refuse delivery and ask them to leave and take the panel with them. the driver was in my home for a total of 7 minutes, they stay for 7 minutes if you just give them lunch money.
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post #254 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 07:56 PM
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It only took you 7 mins to hang the TV on the wall?
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post #255 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

I gave the driver a $20, he stayed and helped me hang it on the wall, he did not ask me to sign until after I checked it out, and I would not have signed until I plugged it in. If they wouldn't agree with those terms, I would refuse delivery and ask them to leave and take the panel with them. the driver was in my home for a total of 7 minutes, they stay for 7 minutes if you just give them lunch money.

I also gave the driver a $20 for his trouble, but I didn't make him stay. Maybe I should have, but truthfully I didn't see the crack under normal room lighting. I suppose I should have used a flashlight immediately, but is it really reasonable to expect a consumer to go to these lengths? I would think that 99% of people who buy plasma TVs aren't on the AVS forum and have no idea about this.

By the way, dmichael, I appreciate your saying "hypothetically" twice in your earlier message. To be clear, I didn't do anything--unintentional or otherwise--to damage the plasma. I have three stuck pixels on my 5060HD--always have--and they don't bother me a bit. I always thought it was a bit silly for people to worry about a pixel or two (or three), when they're invisible during normal viewing. Also, I didn't hang or drop the 500M; it was on the floor the whole time. I never even put it on the table.

--Eric
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post #256 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by eelton View Post

I suppose I should have used a flashlight immediately, but is it really reasonable to expect a consumer to go to these lengths?

When considering all of the cracked panels that there have been reported in the KRP series, and also with all of the people that have numerous times said to BE SURE to check them out with flashlights immediately upon delivery, as it is often the only way to see some of the smaller cracks. Then yes, if you want to have any real recourse about refusing/returning a set with small hard to see cracks, it is indeed reasonable to check it with a flashlight! Granted, most of the sets that have been delivered with cracks in the KRP line and also the normal non-Elite and Elites, it seems like more of them have been the 60" inch sets, and not so much with the 50". But still, it remains, no matter what the size of the panel or even what the brand of the plasma is that you are having delivered. Make sure to check them out for small cracks in the panel with flashlights immediately upon delivery!
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post #257 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 08:57 PM
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they built the best TV in the world with the worst packaging. Styrofoam at the base of the box is non-compliant & transfers all the energy to the glass if the box is dropped. Pioneer should have used high density polyurethane

Most courier companies couldnt give a rats arse to treat a heavy TV with respect especially if on minimum wage.Such a waste of televisions
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post #258 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 09:12 PM
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on my 2nd deliver of my 600m the driver would not let me plug in set. so if there was damage other then a huge crack, in my mind its still shippers fault. thats horseshit that its your fault.
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post #259 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 10:19 PM
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Hi everyone! I just got my second Pioneer 151 in the last week and a half and like the first it had several cracks on the screen. This is very discouraging but I still want one of these TV's. If I get one I will never be able to move without fear of the screen cracking. Thanks Greg
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post #260 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

I gave the driver a $20, he stayed and helped me hang it on the wall, he did not ask me to sign until after I checked it out, and I would not have signed until I plugged it in. If they wouldn't agree with those terms, I would refuse delivery and ask them to leave and take the panel with them. the driver was in my home for a total of 7 minutes, they stay for 7 minutes if you just give them lunch money.

Hi Michael,
it really depend on what carrier, and which driver. If you track back a few pages to my delivery. my driver was not accommodating at all. I am at an apartment, as soon as he sees it from the parking lot, he was hesitant to even go inside the apartment complex door. I told him I am by myself with this delivery, so he would have to help me, otherwise I can't get the TV in. He reluctantly agreed. but once he was inside, I asked him if he can help me unbox, have me inspect it, then help me put it on the pioneer stand. I told him I would pay him money for it. he said he wouldn't do it, and not going to risk it for his job, would not even help me at all to unbox it. Once I started working on unboxing the tv, and inspected it, he basically said hurry up, and he has another delivery.

so what you have said may be an ideal situation, but sometimes things just don't work out in an ideal situation, such as what Eric is going through. I looked at the price carefully, and if the price is not that big of a difference, then you should choose your dealer. if I would've encountered Eric's situation, would my dealer take care of me? I would hope so. sure, "hypothetically" one would potentially go crack the screen himself, if he were to find a few dead pixels, but I really don't think that is the case. and ultimately, Eric is the customer, and I just think he has a decent amount of rights to be treated fairly, that was all. I hope this situation will be corrected in the end.

if you were in Eric's shoes, would you be willing just fork out $1000 if Robert ask you to? I know, it's pretty much a rough deal for everybody, but it really isn't Eric's fault, just saying. I hope you can also see where I am coming from. and I honestly can see everybody's perspective, but I think they can still do him right. sorry for the rambling. it's getting late.........
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post #261 of 1854 Old 04-09-2009, 11:32 PM
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As someone who was one of the first recipients of a cracked 600M and who did sign for it before discovering the damage, I can say that I would have been absolutely livid if anyone had tried to get me to pay for the damage. It was made clear to me at the time of delivery that damage needed to be reported within 24 hours to collect from the insurer. I discovered the damage to my set within minutes of the delivery guy leaving (we did a visual inspection together but it took a flashlight to see the damge) and I reported the problem immediately. It is completely unrealistic to say that you shouldn't take delivery until you have powered the set up as many deliverers are not cooperative in this regard and because weather issues often require that you allow the temperature of the set to equilibrate to the indoors before attempting to turn it on.

In my case, the seller (Dave at Satellite & Sound) asked me to photograph the cracks on the set and to photograph the box from various angles including serial number. Once I emailed him these, arrangement was made to take the damaged set away within a couple of days and he shipped me out a new set almost immediately.

I would have accepted no other response and neither should you and if your seller asks for 1 penny from you I would agree that you should dispute the charge with your CC company. I would also suggest that no one on this forum should use that seller no matter how nice they might be. There is no excuse for an innocent customer to be victimized in this situation.
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post #262 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

So who should be out the $2000 here? Pioneer? Value Electronics? The shipping company? Me?

It's got to be someone, and everyone can make a reasonable case that it shouldn't be them.

not you 100% !

Robert has a contract with the shipping company and he should be handling it with them. And he should have or be getting another one out to you asap for a replacement.

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #263 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 04:50 AM
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I am starting to come around to Eric's side, and I would ask Robert point blank, was the shipment insured or not, and if it was what were the terms of the contract?
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post #264 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 04:52 AM
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I would have accepted no other response and neither should you and if your seller asks for 1 penny from you I would agree that you should dispute the charge with your CC company. I would also suggest that no one on this forum should use that seller no matter how nice they might be. There is no excuse for an innocent customer to be victimized in this situation.

I appreciate everyone's support in this. If I were dealing with Best Buy or some other huge faceless company, I would certainly take a more hard-line approach, dispute the charge with Visa, etc. In this case, though, I truly feel bad for Robert at Value Electronics, who has been very apologetic and helpful. No, I don't want to be screwed, but I don't want him to be either. I really hope that Pioneer gets back to me and says they'll pay for the replacement.

And yes, when the new one comes, I'll be ready with a flashlight, no matter what the driver says. The driver yesterday helped me carry the box to the edge of the living room--not really all the way into it--and then said he had twelve deliveries to make. I had some scissors ready to open the box, but I wimped out and didn't make him wait. The box looked perfect, it had been shipped on a pallet, and the tip indicators on the box showed that it had always remained upright. It wouldn't have made any difference, though, as I didn't have a flashlight handy. I hadn't read this thread carefully enough, and when I envisioned "cracked screen" it was something more obvious than what it turned out to mean.

--Eric
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post #265 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dmichael View Post

I am starting to come around to Eric's side, and I would ask Robert point blank, was the shipment insured or not, and if it was what were the terms of the contract?

To this point, whomever you use to buy a KRP, the shipment must be insured. I used monitoroutlet, and had two cracked 600Ms...and had no issues with the return and getting a new unit resent.

The insurance company takes the hit on the damaged unit and I confirmed that even if I had accepted the deliveries, that there is a 24 hour window to see if the unit is broken.

Seems like common sense that every vendor would insure a shipment like this, especially with it's track record, but assume nothing.
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post #266 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 05:53 AM
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To this point, whomever you use to buy a KRP, the shipment must be insured. I used monitoroutlet, and had two cracked 600Ms...and had no issues with the return and getting a new unit resent.

The insurance company takes the hit on the damaged unit and I confirmed that even if I had accepted the deliveries, that there is a 24 hour window to see if the unit is broken.

Seems like common sense that every vendor would insure a shipment like this, especially with it's track record, but assume nothing.

I'll e-mail Robert to ask him whether it was insured, although I get the idea that the "insurance" is the possibility of making a claim with the shipper--who, at least preliminarily, said they would be unlikely to pay.

I know Robert reads this thread, and I'd welcome him chiming in here. I think I'm representing the situation accurately, but there are always two (at least) sides to a story.

--Eric
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post #267 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 06:09 AM
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^^ Is it possible for you to post what a crack on this set looks like? I am curious as to what I should be looking for when this set comes next week.

I also ordered 500M from Value Electronics and I am having them install it with a Peerless Mount. I will have them turn it on and make sure it works and then look over the screen myself.

So if you can or anyone else ... that you be great. Maybe it can be put up on the first post of this thread.
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post #268 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by eelton View Post

I'll e-mail Robert to ask him whether it was insured, although I get the idea that the "insurance" is the possibility of making a claim with the shipper--who, at least preliminarily, said they would be unlikely to pay.

I know Robert reads this thread, and I'd welcome him chiming in here. I think I'm representing the situation accurately, but there are always two (at least) sides to a story.

I hope this Robert pulls through for you...I think it's safe to say this whole board agrees you shouldn't be paying anything for a replacement. best of luck....
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post #269 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dssturbo1 View Post

D-nice got 3 damaged panels (2 cracked 6020 and a Pro111) shipped from Robert and he never mentioned having to pay to send them back and get replacements........

That's because I inspected the panels BEFORE the driver left AND wrote "subject to inspection" beside my signature. Failure to at least place "subject to inspection" beside your signature actually removes the shipping company from being liable for any damage and solely places the blame on you if you discover damage to the display after you the driver leaves.... especially if the box is in pristine condition. I know that hurts when you spent a couple of grand on a display, but its the truth.

Now, if the dealer you purchased the display chooses to replace the panel at no cost, please believe that the chances of them getting a full refund on the price of your panel from the insurance company or manufacturer when you did not put "subject to inspection" beside your name is slim to none. They will be eating the price of that panel. Sure, it's probably good business to "take one for the team"... BUT they are not required to do so.

Everyone needs to remember to ALWAYS put "subject to inspection" beside their signature REGARDLESS if you inspect the panel, power it on, or do anything else before and/or after the driver leaves.
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post #270 of 1854 Old 04-10-2009, 06:57 AM
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It is also important to ask and know the vendors policy before you purchase. It seems there are many very good authorized dealers who allow a 24 to 48 hour period even after signing to return if damage is found. I know Coza has this policy as well as a 14 days return policy other defects.

Barry
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