Samsung PN5xB650 Owner Thread - Page 167 - AVS Forum
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post #4981 of 5062 Old 11-16-2010, 12:44 AM
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Zounds! I am undone! Got the Eye One Display 2 and I knew there was something fishy when I saw that it still had the GretagMacbeth logo on it instead of the more recent X-Rite. Sadly, my alarmingly keen intuition turned out, as ever, to be correct. The colorimeter was a dud. I googled for an answer and came across a thread that suggested that these lower end colorimeters go haywire within a year. I'm gonna try to return this piece of crap, but now I don't know if I should try to get another Eye One or maybe look into something else. Is the Spyder 3 any good? They all have such discouraging reviews.
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post #4982 of 5062 Old 11-16-2010, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

To me these episodes are like a very brief loss of signal. We know with no signal the screen is very black. I notice this when calibrating where it is not difficult to find and reproduce this 'threshold'. In fact, when the TV turns on you can see the same thing in the various stages before picture. The truly black/black must simply represent a micro period of no signal. The meter will verify with a 0 value reading.

Hmmn... That's very interesting. Could the blu-ray player be the problem? I'm having trouble remembering this happening on regular TV. Even if it were on regular TV, it could be a compression artifact in the cable signal since virtually all I watch is HD. Does anyone know what sort of setting to look for to avoid these signal drop-outs that cause the screen to blank?
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post #4983 of 5062 Old 11-20-2010, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gib View Post

As you say, there is black and then there is a real super black like the pixels turns off completely. The normal black to me is not as dark as I thought this TV should be and this is the black you see on the side bars with non-16x9 material and in most scenes. Then sometimes the TV senses that the whole screen is "black" and below some threshold and it basically shuts off the pixels and becomes really true black. You see this often before or after the main content of a movie starts. It is frustrating because why isn't the normal black the same pitch black?

I noticed this with Moulin Rouge Blu-ray the other night. It happens with two different Blu-ray players (Oppo and Dune). I have not noticed this in dozens of other Blu-rays or any cable shows. Just this one disc.

My guess is this is an "optimization" to improve their measured contrast ratio. Make the black screen even blacker and their reported (meaningless) contrast numbers skyrocket. But it is very distracting and obnoxious when it happens in the middle of the movie.

Overall I'm disgusted with the PQ of this set as compared to my 11 year old Toshiba TW40H80 CRT RPTV, which had a better picture in every way except resolution (being only 480i).
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post #4984 of 5062 Old 11-21-2010, 08:15 AM
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Sorry to hear that. Perhaps you should sell it and move on.

So you're saying your 40" 480i RGB rear projection set has better PQ than a 58" 1080P plasma? Hmmmmmm? Blu-Ray on these panels is superb. I have no idea what you are looking at.

Also, your post is a little unclear. If this was something Samsung was doing to improve contrast ratio, why does it only show on this one disc, even with different players, per your own post? Seems to me you have two items which are in question...the set and the disc. Is the set calibrated? What settings?



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post #4985 of 5062 Old 11-21-2010, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Sorry to hear that. Perhaps you should sell it and move on.

So you're saying your 40" 480i RGB rear projection set has better PQ than a 58" 1080P plasma? Hmmmmmm? Blu-Ray on these panels is superb. I have no idea what you are looking at.

Also, your post is a little unclear. If this was something Samsung was doing to improve contrast ratio, why does it only show on this one disc, even with different players, per your own post? Seems to me you have two items which are in question...the set and the disc. Is the set calibrated? What settings?

Yep, that's what I'm saying, believe it or not.
  • My CRT had zero image retention
  • My CRT had real blacks, not grey
  • My CRT did not have nasty phosphor trails when watching Sin City
  • My CRT did not have nasty line bleed
  • My CRT did not flicker between grey and black on Moulin Rouge
  • My CRT did not buzz incessantly

I calibrated my Samsung plasma (as much as I could do myself) with the S&M Blu-ray. I don't think most of the above issues could be alleviated by further calibration.

I am not saying Blu-ray looks bad. Compared to other plasmas, maybe other LCDs, I'm sure it looks great. But compared to a good CRT projector like I was used to, it comes up short.

I can only guess why this grey/black phenomenon only happens with this one disc. Clearly it is source material related. Perhaps these black scenes in Moulin Rouge are a perfect, pure black, with every pixel exactly zero? Whereas other movies have black scenes with a little bit of noise in them.
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post #4986 of 5062 Old 11-22-2010, 09:43 AM
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I kinda get where you're coming from. I still have a 42" Zenith plasma 480P EDTV from 2005 which has excellent PQ ... but I would never put it up against the 58B650. Unfortunately there are compromises inherent in moving to flat panels from CRT technology, whether direct or projected. Only Pioneer panels compete with CRT for blacks. Seemingly all flat panels suffer from the ailments you mentioned to one degree or another. But rear projection CRT also had limitations like severe off-axis dimming and RGB replacement/re-calibration, to name just a few. It is what it is. I suggest if you care about PQ/calibration you should either buy what you need like a meter and software or pay for the services of a local ISF calibrator.



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post #4987 of 5062 Old 11-22-2010, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

I kinda get where you're coming from. I still have a 42" Zenith plasma 480P EDTV from 2005 which has excellent PQ ... but I would never put it up against the 58B650. Unfortunately there are compromises inherent in moving to flat panels from CRT technology, whether direct or projected. Only Pioneer panels compete with CRT for blacks. Seemingly all flat panels suffer from the ailments you mentioned to one degree or another. But rear projection CRT also had limitations like severe off-axis dimming and RGB replacement/re-calibration, to name just a few. It is what it is. I suggest if you care about PQ/calibration you should either buy what you need like a meter and software or pay for the services of a local ISF calibrator.

You're right, and I don't mean to rant. My old CRT was ISF calibrated. I didn't bother to do so with this plasma. But I don't think that can fix the inherent limitations.

CRT technology has its own limitations, but for a PQ-picky person like myself they are tolerable. I'm fantasizing about my next home theater build which will have a used, high-end CRT front projector. Even a Sony G90 in good shape (sold new for like $30k) is about $4k now.
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post #4988 of 5062 Old 11-22-2010, 02:14 PM
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Sounds like a plan.



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post #4989 of 5062 Old 11-23-2010, 12:34 PM
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Ever since I've had my 650 I feel like the black level isn't as dark as it should be and maybe the TV is defective. I don't have any calibration equipment to measure it but it just seems like it is really too gray based on everything I have read about plasmas. I don't have another plasma to compare it to but my Samsung A650 LCD seems to be darker - although it is also tinged slightly blue.

The other interesting thing is that I know the Cinema Smooth option is defective on these TVs and causes the black level to rise. However, when I engage cinema smooth I have looked as closely as possible and don't see any change in black level. I feel like my TV is already at a high black level so thats why I see no change. None of this would matter if I didn't notice it when I watch real content, but I definitely do.

I use Movie mode and lowering brightness, contrast, back light or anything else lower than I have it now doesn't help. Is there any way, short of getting calibration equipment, to determine if there is a problem? Will Samsung ever replace a TV that otherwise works fine (other than some buzzing) but where black level is too high? I am afraid that if I get a technician he will come in the day time and won't be able to see anything.
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post #4990 of 5062 Old 12-07-2010, 11:38 PM
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Weird, I just recently updated my firmware from 1017 to 1018 and now I have "Cinema Smooth" in the Picture Options / Film Mode category. I've never had this option until today. Looks to be greyed out though, haha
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post #4991 of 5062 Old 12-08-2010, 05:49 AM
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Cinema Smooth will only be active in the Menu when you have a Blu-Ray input, otherwise it is not available.



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post #4992 of 5062 Old 12-09-2010, 04:42 PM
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Does anyone here know what constraints the TV puts on PCM audio coming in via HDMI? Will it accept 88.2K/24? 96K/24?

Also, if the audio comes in as PCM, say 88.2K/24, on HDMI, will it go out of the optical digital output the same? Or are there limits below that put on by the TV?

I cannot discover the answers with my equipment because I am using a stereo DAC/preamp/amp that doesn't have a display.
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post #4993 of 5062 Old 01-06-2011, 06:30 PM
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I've asked before, but has anyone used any of the samygo items on their 650?
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post #4994 of 5062 Old 01-12-2011, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwinner View Post

Does anyone here know what constraints the TV puts on PCM audio coming in via HDMI? Will it accept 88.2K/24? 96K/24?

Also, if the audio comes in as PCM, say 88.2K/24, on HDMI, will it go out of the optical digital output the same? Or are there limits below that put on by the TV?

I cannot discover the answers with my equipment because I am using a stereo DAC/preamp/amp that doesn't have a display.

I'm not quite sure the limits on what it will accept, but I know that the optical out from the TV is limited to 2.0 channels. I believe it is discussed somewhere within this thread.
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post #4995 of 5062 Old 01-12-2011, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike3 View Post

I've asked before, but has anyone used any of the samygo items on their 650?

for me, it's just not worth the risk. Seems very very possible to brick the tv. I tried the apps that shipped with the TV and all were slow and lackluster, and can be done better by some other piece of equipment I own.

The only thing I plan on using again is the Amazon VOD app.
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post #4996 of 5062 Old 01-14-2011, 08:21 AM
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Haven't been following the current events with my TV for a while...
what's the latest Firmware? Is Cinema Smooth fixed??

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post #4997 of 5062 Old 01-14-2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velvet396 View Post
I'm not quite sure the limits on what it will accept, but I know that the optical out from the TV is limited to 2.0 channels. I believe it is discussed somewhere within this thread.
Yes, two-channel output is just fine for me. The questions are:
(1) if the TV gets a 24-bit 96KHZ two-channel audio signal in via HDMI, will it output 24/96K via the optical out line?

(2) what does it tell the HDMI source about its audio capability that might cause the source to limit the audio over HDMI?

If anyone has a receiver that displays the relevant info and can input an HDMI signal from, say, an SACD or other hi-rez source, I would love to know what the TV outputs over the optical audio-out line.
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post #4998 of 5062 Old 01-15-2011, 08:26 AM
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I'm currently running 1017. noticed that someone mentioned 1018. i went into the menu to perform an online upgrade but got the message "Connection Failed. (800)".

Its funny because when i test the network settings it says that its working and my yahoo widgets are working too, so it clearly has a working internet connection.

Anyone else getting this? Any ideas?
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post #4999 of 5062 Old 01-22-2011, 01:57 AM
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I thought my black bars looked a little brighter than normal so I played around and thought I'd share:

1) Service menu reset. I'm almost certain this fixed the problem. But why? If you can think of all the possible settings we've messed with in the last year, its likely that something just got effed up.

2) I started running cell light 10 instead of 8 (contrast 95, brightness 50, whatever). Again this is subjective, but I think it looks better. Maybe because I'm exceeding the recommended light output of 35ftl and its tricking my eyes because the screen is brighter? I dont really know.

3) Bias lighting... Ok maybe not directly related to the b650, but I picked up a clip on light from wal mart and pointed it at the back of the tv (or wall). It works great. Petco sells a decent 6500k 10w "Zoo Med Ultra Sun" Compact Fluorescent Bulb for about 8 bucks. This has helped with the blacks for obvious reasons and needless to say I wont be tv shopping anytime soon.
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post #5000 of 5062 Old 02-09-2011, 10:54 AM
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I'm wondering if people are still noticing the contrast ghosting / banding.

Is this particular to this model? Sometimes it can be very annoying on things like kids shows (white background with moving characters).

If this issue was gone, it would be the perfect set!
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post #5001 of 5062 Old 02-09-2011, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dime5150 View Post

I'm wondering if people are still noticing the contrast ghosting / banding.

Is this particular to this model? Sometimes it can be very annoying on things like kids shows (white background with moving characters).

If this issue was gone, it would be the perfect set!

I have had my pn50b650 a year today and I can honestly say i dont have any banding. All plasmas have ghosting. Ghosting disappears in less than 1 min on my set. When i say this you may not believe me, but i have played 10 hours straight of the same game more than 20 times (Left 4 Dead 2) with no burn in. I also play L4D2 everyday as well (get yo 4 lol.) You cant go wrong owning a sammy pnxxb650 i can honestly say that it is the perfect set with 1 flaw... Its not 73 inches like my mits dlp ... Im kinda sad to see that this forum has slowed down AKA died
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post #5002 of 5062 Old 02-11-2011, 07:51 AM
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I have had the set for over a year and have one big complaint. For the first hour after power up, there are several hundred pixels toward the right edge of the screen that show up as bright green sparkles whenever the picture is mid-level bright on those pixels. When the pixels are supposed to be dark or near white, they are ok, but in between they are sparkly green. As the set warms up, this phenomenon slowly fades in that fewer and fewer pixels act this way. It does take quite a while before there are none visible.
I have never heard back from anyone here or elsewhere if there is a fix. Samsung never replied to a query by email. The nearest Samsung-listed repair place is over an hour's drive away. So, I live with it.

Any advice?
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post #5003 of 5062 Old 02-14-2011, 05:05 AM
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I had something similar. Needed a service adjustment of the voltages on an internal board.
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post #5004 of 5062 Old 02-14-2011, 10:08 AM
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have there been any updates to the apps that are available on the b650?
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post #5005 of 5062 Old 02-14-2011, 01:37 PM
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I've had my 50" set for over a year and I have some burn-in from too much Modern Warfare 2.

The Claymore, Flashbang icons on the bottom right, and the word "WINNING" on lower left from playing domination matches all the time. This is super noticable when the TV is initially on, but less notciable after an hour or so (do plasmas warm up??)

Less prone to IR than before. I can pause the TV long enough for it to go into the dimmed mode, and no IR after resuming play.

Very happy with this unit as my first HDTV. Great bang for the buck.

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post #5006 of 5062 Old 02-20-2011, 06:12 PM
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I have an opportunity to get a new in box pn58b650 for $1k (+tax and possibly shipping). Wondering if there's anything I should be aware about it (or if people would direct me at others for that price).
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post #5007 of 5062 Old 03-03-2011, 08:46 PM
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Hey guys, so I recently picked up the pn50b650 for bout 899 recently. It's our first HD tv and I'm having some troubles tuning it. The image looks pretty sharp while watching HD talkshows and whatnot, however my friend has been telling me that the images seen while watching sports feeds aren't as sharp as HD should be.

I'm currently using telus optik tv for the Canadians here. I was wondering if this is the TV, period, or if there's something I can do to improve the PQ for sports. I've also noticed the image isn't as bright as my friend's LED. Is this normal for the set?

Anyway, thanks in advance and there's definitely a lot for me to learn!
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post #5008 of 5062 Old 03-04-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason.pc View Post

Hey guys, so I recently picked up the pn50b650 for bout 899 recently. It's our first HD tv and I'm having some troubles tuning it. The image looks pretty sharp while watching HD talkshows and whatnot, however my friend has been telling me that the images seen while watching sports feeds aren't as sharp as HD should be.

I'm currently using telus optik tv for the Canadians here. I was wondering if this is the TV, period, or if there's something I can do to improve the PQ for sports. I've also noticed the image isn't as bright as my friend's LED. Is this normal for the set?

Anyway, thanks in advance and there's definitely a lot for me to learn!

Sports should look incredible on your TV but there are a lot of factors to make sure you have it set up right. I assume your Optik TV uses an external box and you are using an HDMI connection to the TV or at least Component cables? Make sure you tell your Optik box you have an HDTV and the box is set for the highest resolution it can which is probably 1080i. You can press the Info button for the TV to see what signal it is receiving - it should show 1080i/60. Also you need to be watching an HD program/channel as you probably know.

The size setting on the TV should be Screen Fit or 16:9. Also you should check the forum here or CNET to get good initial settings for the TV. The default Standard setting it comes with is terrible. In general it should be on Movie mode and Color Tone of Warm 2. Back light of 8 or 9 is usually good with Contrast around 85-90, Brightness 51-52, and Sharpness should be set to between 0 and 10. Most settings on Advanced Settings should be turned off like dynamic contrast, edge enhancement, black level etc.

In terms of Sharpness, there are settings on TVs, like the Sharpness setting, that make them look unrealistically sharp. They actually add lines to the picture so it is less accurate but may look "sharper". Thats why the Sharpness should be turned way down. Your friend may have his LED set like with a high, but not accurate, sharpness. In terms of brightness, plasmas in general do not go as bright as LCDs. However, you should have no problem with this set unless you have a lot of direct sunlight on it. Mine is plenty bright for daytime watching and at night it can go blindingly bright if you want it to - I don't suggest that.
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post #5009 of 5062 Old 03-06-2011, 01:38 PM
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Hi Gib,

Thanks for the response, it turns out the STB was set to give a 720p feed. I just switched it over to 1080i. However it seems as though the blacks/colors aren't as vibrant as when the source is my Xbox or USB drive with HD content. Is this normal or should I be expecting PQ on par, or close to that of any other HD content? I guess I could say the PQ looks flat, with kind of a light gray haze?

My current settings are:


Movie Mode

Cell Light 10
Contrast 92
Brightness 53
Sharpness 2
Color 50
Tint 50/50

Put gamma at -1 and put film mode to "auto 1." Auto 1 is the only mode that deinterlaces properly. Turn everything else "off"

Use Warm2 white balance adjusted as follows:

R-Offset: 24
G-Offset: 25
B-Offset: 24
R-Gain: 36
G-Gain: 25
B-Gain: 39

Custom Color Space (1st # is red, 2nd is green, 3rd is blue):

Red: 38,7,7
Green: 33,50,16
Blue: 5, 0, 39
Yellow: 47, 50, 19
Cyan: 36, 48, 48
Magenta: 40, 0, 42

as per page 163.
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post #5010 of 5062 Old 03-06-2011, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason.pc View Post

Hi Gib,

Thanks for the response, it turns out the STB was set to give a 720p feed. I just switched it over to 1080i. However it seems as though the blacks/colors aren't as vibrant as when the source is my Xbox or USB drive with HD content. Is this normal or should I be expecting PQ on par, or close to that of any other HD content? I guess I could say the PQ looks flat, with kind of a light gray haze?

I did a search on Telus Optik and I found this forum where many people are complaining about the same problem you are experiencing with the 2.02 update from Telus: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...=136856&page=3. Seems like it may be problem with Telus causing the washed out colors and light blacks. If your are not seeing it on other sources then it very likely is an issue with the cable source.
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