What is the future of premium plasma TVs? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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With Pioneer out of the game. Where will the cutting edge quality come from? Panasonic make excellent plasmas but not ground breaking like Pioneers. It seems like in this market, there is no room for premium priced displays, and if this is the case, what will motivate other companies to pump in R&D money if they can't sell these more expensive display? What do you guys think?
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post #2 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 07:18 AM
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Just keep in mind that "high-end" or paying more doesn't always translate to better onscreen PQ..remember the last couple years of Fujitsu? The 3 top remaining plasma players (Panasonic, Samsung and LG) can't afford to let the technology stagnate unless they don't plan to stick with plasma for much longer....remember that lcd's (even their own models) are the stiffest competition and are beating them as far as sales go. If you have really deep pockets there will always be companies like Bang & Olufsen, Runco etc.. that will offer you a plasma that has video processing/features beyond what you can get at your normal electronics retailer...but they still have to outsource a panel from one of the big 3. Just keep your fingers crossed that Pioneer will either sell the Kuro technology to Panasonic...or share some of it with them in an attempt to reenter the plasma tv market at some point. Of course, by that time Panasonic (or one of the others) could have developed something that is equal or superior with their own R&D.

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post #3 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 10:03 AM
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The lie that LCDs give a better PQ than plasmas is spreading. I've had multiple salespersons ask me why I want a Plasma while checking them out in-store. If this trend continues I'm sure Samsung and LGg won't make it more than another year.

I think Panasonic is doing an excellent job though. They've created a pretty good lineup for 2009, and even an S1 cannot be beat by an LCD with a similar pricetag.
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post #4 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 10:43 AM
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Acquired one of Panasonic's Premium-line monitor models last month, the TH-65VX100U, built for designer/commercial setups. Can't say how its images compare with other designs since I've never viewed them; a number of reviewers liked both the 65" and 50" VX100 pictures. Outlined some impressions in the 65VX100 thread here. -- John
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post #5 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 11:28 AM
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When I purchased my last (third) plasma, the "kid" who was the salesman tried hard to get me to buy an LCD (or LED) type. I think a lot of people believe that the, so called new tech, is better.

To me none compare to the color of a plasma.
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post #6 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caunyd View Post

With Pioneer out of the game. Where will the cutting edge quality come from? Panasonic make excellent plasmas but not ground breaking like Pioneers. It seems like in this market, there is no room for premium priced displays, and if this is the case, what will motivate other companies to pump in R&D money if they can't sell these more expensive display? What do you guys think?

Pioneer plasmas never were really "groundbreaking". The big deal was their black levels due to a very heavy antireflection film, which happened to kill the white levels and white level detail and in the process add alot to the SDE effect. As good as the last Elites were, they still had alot of flaws. The current generation Samsungs and possibly the V and Z series Panasonics are already better or equal in performance a number of key areas and for almost half price.
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post #7 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:01 PM
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Do you guys consider Panasonic's 800u series to be a high end model?
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post #8 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyBongHitsWee View Post

Pioneer plasmas never were really "groundbreaking". The big deal was their black levels due to a very heavy antireflection film, which happened to kill the white levels and white level detail and in the process add alot to the SDE effect. As good as the last Elites were, they still had alot of flaws. The current generation Samsungs and possibly the V and Z series Panasonics are already better or equal in performance a number of key areas and for almost half price.

have you seen a calibrated kuro?
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post #9 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

have you seen a calibrated kuro?

My non calibrated Kuro has none of the issues he said.

Pioneer Elite 111FD and Onkyo 6100B 7.1
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post #10 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyBongHitsWee View Post

Pioneer plasmas never were really "groundbreaking". The big deal was their black levels due to a very heavy antireflection film

Are you absolutely sure the AR film is the source of the improved black level? If so how did you come to this conclusion?

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post #11 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 761-honda View Post

Do you guys consider Panasonic's 800u series to be a high end model?

It (along with the PZ850U) were Panasonic's high-end models last year. But this year's high-end models are better in virtually every category.

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post #12 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caunyd View Post

With Pioneer out of the game. Where will the cutting edge quality come from? Panasonic make excellent plasmas but not ground breaking like Pioneers. It seems like in this market, there is no room for premium priced displays, and if this is the case, what will motivate other companies to pump in R&D money if they can't sell these more expensive display? What do you guys think?

the OP asked a specific question: if you want to discuss it here, please post

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post #13 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:32 PM
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Kuro is bad for gaming due to high input lag.
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post #14 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damasterjj View Post

Kuro is bad for gaming due to high input lag.

As a person who games heavily on a Pioneer Elite I can't disagree enough with this statement. Kuro is perfect for gaming. So perfect, I might add, that I'm having ANOTHER Elite delivered so I can put in my back room and do my gaming there leaving the larger Elite for my wife to watch.

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post #15 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caunyd View Post

With Pioneer out of the game. Where will the cutting edge quality come from? Panasonic make excellent plasmas but not ground breaking like Pioneers. It seems like in this market, there is no room for premium priced displays, and if this is the case, what will motivate other companies to pump in R&D money if they can't sell these more expensive display? What do you guys think?

I think another technology, like OLED's will eventually take over. Plasma, as good as it is, is still an energy hog and its displays are heavy. It would seem to me that once OLED technology becomes affordable, and that may be a big "if", it will capture the market in a big hurry. That, and the growth of LCD sets, due to gross misinformation, really provides somewhat of a disincentive for huge amounts of research spent down the road.

As to the Pioneer haters, my 60" Elite, which has yet to be calibrated, is still the best damned picture I have ever seen, and I have a Panny50- 800U and a 46G10 in the house. I am waiting for a 65" V10 Panny, but if Pioneer made a set of that size, I would have bought it long ago. I am not one of the sophisticated video guys on this forum (lean more to the audio side) and go by what my eyes tell me, and that is the 9G Kuros produce the best images out there.
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post #16 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damasterjj View Post

Kuro is bad for gaming due to high input lag.

Misinformation at it's best .

My Kuro is the best gaming display I've ever had (and I've had more than I care to mention ).

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post #17 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 04:49 PM
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I'm not sure you will ever see "high End" plasmas. Most plasma's offer better PQ than the best LED based LCD's now so why bother to improve the plasma technology? It will take something dramatic for plasma to undo the damage done by LCD propaganda. Even in the June issue of Home Entertainment Magazine in the letters section the editor mentioned the slight possibility of burn in. People read that and gloss right over the word slight. They just register the dreaded words "burn-in".
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post #18 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

I'm not sure you will ever see "high End" plasmas. Most plasma's offer better PQ than the best LED based LCD's now so why bother to improve the plasma technology? It will take something dramatic for plasma to undo the damage done by LCD propaganda. Even in the June issue of Home Entertainment Magazine in the letters section the editor mentioned the slight possibility of burn in. People read that and gloss right over the word slight. They just register the dreaded words "burn-in".

I don't see a way for them to get around the fact that plasmas won't look as good as LCDs in show rooms and that there will always be a small chance of burn-in. With abuse you will always be a way for some one to ruin a tv worth thousands in a way that is not covered by warranty. Chances are if they include it in warranty it would be abused. And chances are the average person will be watching a decent amount of blu-rays with bars on the screen most of the time or side-bars on sd so it doesn't look like complete crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilent1 View Post

Misinformation at it's best .

My Kuro is the best gaming display I've ever had (and I've had more than I care to mention ).

I have heard 40-50ms for Kuros.
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post #19 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 09:00 PM
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For any flat screen, I have yet to see any other technology that compares to a PDP.

It is like listening to a good speaker in a "show room". They can make it sound good or bad The real test is when it is in your room and set up right.
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post #20 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 761-honda View Post

Do you guys consider Panasonic's 800u series to be a high end model?

for me really not much better than the Samsung 650 series at all
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post #21 of 36 Old 05-12-2009, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyBongHitsWee View Post

Pioneer plasmas never were really "groundbreaking". The big deal was their black levels due to a very heavy antireflection film, which happened to kill the white levels and white level detail and in the process add alot to the SDE effect. As good as the last Elites were, they still had alot of flaws. The current generation Samsungs and possibly the V and Z series Panasonics are already better or equal in performance a number of key areas and for almost half price.

I agree with zippy here. The newest pannies and certainly the sammies are your premium plasmas at the higher ends. Samsung has already demonstrated their commitment to continue R&D in plasmas and I'm sure the same holds true for panasonic.
Technology marches onward my friend, even as some companies/tv brands fall by the wayside.
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post #22 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damasterjj View Post

Kuro is bad for gaming due to high input lag.

u r wrong

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #23 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 761-honda View Post

Do you guys consider Panasonic's 800u series to be a high end model?

it was one of panasonics higher models but overall it was considered a good mid level plasma.

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post #24 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyBongHitsWee View Post

Pioneer plasmas never were really "groundbreaking". The big deal was their black levels due to a very heavy antireflection film, which happened to kill the white levels and white level detail and in the process add alot to the SDE effect. As good as the last Elites were, they still had alot of flaws. The current generation Samsungs and possibly the V and Z series Panasonics are already better or equal in performance a number of key areas and for almost half price.

The Pioneers plasmas were groundbreaking......... they had the first 1080P 50" plasma. And with the 8G Kuro models they had by far the deepest blacks and highest contrast plasmas on the market, better PQ than the uber $$$$$ fuji/Runco/B&O panels (upgraded processed panny panels). And with the 9G they upgraded to even deeper blacks and higher contrast and better ISFccc capabilities on the Elite/Sg models.

who said the a/r coating added to any screen door effect???

has samsung or panasonic matched the black levels or true contrast levels of the 8g or 9G pioneers yet??

With Pioneer exiting the plasma business it will leave the mid level Samsung and Panasonic brands as the best of the plasma tech.

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post #25 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 03:00 AM
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Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread.

Yesterday a number of posts were removed, seems the usual, predictable battle flared up as it does in almost every thread of this kind.

I got this PM which is notable:

Thank you, Mark. More than a dozen times in the past few months I've considered contacting a moderator about some posts I've seen, but I always tell myself "You're not a cop --it's not your place."

I don't know if it's a misperception on my part or if it's real, but it seems that there has been a significant increase in trolling, cheerleading and general acrimony on our plasma-related threads ever since Pioneer announced they were leaving the business. I still sift through all of it for the useful information, but it gets tiresome.

Glad to see the mods stepping ...in


I agree with the above...it is troubling to me ....it has to stop

Please take note [no need to reply]

Thanks

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post #26 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dssturbo1 View Post

The Pioneers plasmas were groundbreaking......... they had the first 1080P 50" plasma. And with the 8G Kuro models they had by far the deepest blacks and highest contrast plasmas on the market, better PQ than the uber $$$$$ fuji/Runco/B&O panels (upgraded processed panny panels). And with the 9G they upgraded to even deeper blacks and higher contrast and better ISFccc capabilities on the Elite/Sg models.

who said the a/r coating added to any screen door effect???

has samsung or panasonic matched the black levels or true contrast levels of the 8g or 9G pioneers yet??

With Pioneer exiting the plasma business it will leave the mid level Samsung and Panasonic brands as the best of the plasma tech.


I would have to agree with everything you said here. Pioneer has been ahead of the rest by several generations IMO. With Pioneer dropping out, I belive we won't see anything in the way of major advancements in plasma tech from here on out. Panny and Samsung have made their bones by selling mid to low level products to the masses, it's not in either companys best intrest to all of a sudden become major movers in plasma R&D. Panny has never been a leader in R&D and has no motivation to invest now that they have no high end competition. As far as Samsung goes, they now have no one to steal R&D from so you can expect very little from them. The bottom line is that I don't belive we will ever see plasma tech reach it's full potential now that Pioneer is out.
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post #27 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyBongHitsWee View Post

Pioneer plasmas never were really "groundbreaking". The big deal was their black levels due to a very heavy antireflection film, which happened to kill the white levels and white level detail and in the process add alot to the SDE effect. As good as the last Elites were, they still had alot of flaws. The current generation Samsungs and possibly the V and Z series Panasonics are already better or equal in performance a number of key areas and for almost half price.


C'mon, we all know it is not just an antireflective filter that makes the blacks in the Kuro so deep. Please stop spreading misinformation unless you have actual data to back it up.

To the OP, looks like the higher end Pannys and Sammys will be the premium affordable plasmas now without having to do as much R&D since Pioneer has stoped making plasmas.

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post #28 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread.

Yesterday a number of posts were removed, seems the usual, predictable battle flared up as it does in almost every thread of this kind.

I got this PM which is notable:

Thank you, Mark. More than a dozen times in the past few months I've considered contacting a moderator about some posts I've seen, but I always tell myself "You're not a cop --it's not your place."

I don't know if it's a misperception on my part or if it's real, but it seems that there has been a significant increase in trolling, cheerleading and general acrimony on our plasma-related threads ever since Pioneer announced they were leaving the business. I still sift through all of it for the useful information, but it gets tiresome.

Glad to see the mods stepping ...in


I agree with the above...it is troubling to me ....it has to stop

Please take note [no need to reply]

Thanks

By the way, for the record I wasn't one of the "usual suspects".
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post #29 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
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by the way, for the record i wasn't one of the "usual suspects".


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post #30 of 36 Old 05-13-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telexen View Post

The lie that LCDs give a better PQ than plasmas is spreading. I've had multiple salespersons ask me why I want a Plasma while checking them out in-store. If this trend continues I'm sure Samsung and LGg won't make it more than another year.

I think Panasonic is doing an excellent job though. They've created a pretty good lineup for 2009, and even an S1 cannot be beat by an LCD with a similar pricetag.

This is true and sad. Several friends and neighbors need to be re-educated by me to rid them of their false LCD beliefs. The nice thing is that one look at the KURO and they are usually sold. Still, I cant get to all of them and many bought LCDs anyways due to sale pricing and/or other coercing from LCD pimps. Too bad.
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