Samsung PNXXB850 & PNXXB860 Owner's Discussion Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 11:12 AM
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Can anyone comment on how well the antireflective surface works to combat window or other reflections?
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post #92 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

I am buying from 2 different sources and they might have higher margins. They give me a price I add 5%-7% and hope to move some product.

yo comprendo :-)
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post #93 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenseike View Post

If you read what I am saying I am saying that it is NOT adverticed with cinema smooth.. It do however has it.. But - just keep thiniking not, I really dont care.... If you read the website carfully you see there is a pdf file to download. I am attaching it here since you are not able to find it.. If you read that and also look at the icons down on page one you see the cinema smooth icon just the same icon as on the 650 pdf... The info in the specification section is wrong...

Same thing here in Norway, the spesification section does not either say cinema smooth - but mine had it anyway... Isn't that strange.. How could it.... It did not say on the samsung website!!!!

Yes, the Crystal Full HD Engine do mean that ... so??.. It runs the CS feature among other things!!!

I dont know where you are coming from!!!

Jens

OK then...
Please don't be angry

I do believe at like 95% that it is the exact same panel but as a worker in electronics I know that is extremely easy to have the same board without a few parts to save a few bucks (let say in that case 2-3$ per unit for example) but let the same software and diseable the option...

PLEASE understand me I'm not against you I want it to be true but there's is absolutely no real proof with measurement or something to call it and don't come back with that french review...this is really usual to have the same model but with different specs for different countries...just think about cars

I don't know why you're taking it so personnal, if you don't have real effidence and not speculations PLEASE stop and I'll stop too since I don't have evidence that it is not actually working...I just want to be sure I won't regret my 3k purchase for a 50" yes here's it's 3k +tx so about 3.4k

As soon as I'll see one in store will check if you're right and if it has CS in the menu like you believe

Thanks
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post #94 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by thj17 View Post

OK then...
Please don't be angry

I do believe at like 95% that it is the exact same panel but as a worker in electronics I know that is extremely easy to have the same board without a few parts to save a few bucks (let say in that case 2-3$ per unit for example) but let the same software and diseable the option...

PLEASE understand me I'm not against you I want it to be true but there's is absolutely no real proof with measurement or something to call it and don't come back with that french review...this is really usual to have the same model but with different specs for different countries...just think about cars

I don't know why you're taking it so personnal, if you don't have real effidence and not speculations PLEASE stop and I'll stop too since I don't have evidence that it is not actually working...I just want to be sure I won't regret my 3k purchase for a 50" yes here's it's 3k +tx so about 3.4k

As soon as I'll see one in store will check if you're right and if it has CS in the menu like you believe

Thanks

Since you work in the elctronic buisniss let me ask you this.. Do you they save more on letting out a unit on a panel costing $2, making two different panels and then esambling them two different ways or do you think that making one and same panel, same esambling and so.... come on... I would not hire you!! you can just buy another tv if you cant understand it..

I am not angry at all. I really dont care. I just dont understand how somebody can be thinking so litle logical as you are. I dont care if the evidence dont work for you.. that is your problem, not mine. I got my evidence, I bouht the tv based on it and I got it confirmed..
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post #95 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jenseike View Post

Since you work in the elctronic buisniss let me ask you this.. Do you they save more on letting out a unit on a panel costing $2, making two different panels and then esambling them two different ways or do you think that making one and same panel, same esambling and so.... come on... I would not hire you!! you can just buy another tv if you cant understand it..

I am not angry at all. I really dont care. I just dont understand how somebody can be thinking so litle logical as you are. I dont care if the evidence dont work for you.. that is your problem, not mine. I got my evidence, I bouht the tv based on it and I got it confirmed..

jenseike,

just to confirm what i think you are saying ... you own the 850 unit and have utilized the service menu to turn on cinema smooth and that it works perfectly on your set ... is that correct?
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post #96 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 12:50 PM
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Actually thj17 has a valid point. I have been involved with computers and instrumentation since 1983. I can think back to times when Intel sold the exact same processor chips but some had the math coprocessors disabled as they didn't pass certain factory testing. Seen this in the 386, 486 and early Pentium processors. No difference in the chip so were marketed at different price points. A few times I have seen this in industrial electronics as well where I could tear apart 2 different items and find the exact same components but one would lack functional features of the other due to not passing certain testing. As a manufacturer, this is a great way to save money as you don't waste hardware or components and not all that uncommon. I have a son that works building components for the military and if a circuit component does not pass tests, it is saved for other usage in non-mil-spec products. None of this may apply to Samsung and plasma manufacturing but --- it is sure possible that if the Crystal Full HD Engine board fails some testing that it might still be installed in one model and just not utilize all the functionality.

I have no idea if the Cinema Smooth feature is really worth extra cost and would love to know that. Would also like confirmation if that actually does "turn on" in the 850. Some places charge $350 more for the 860 over the 850 so this is a big deal to define the technical differences.

Pete
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post #97 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by zman58 View Post

jenseike,

just to confirm what i think you are saying ... you own the 850 unit and have utilized the service menu to turn on cinema smooth and that it works perfectly on your set ... is that correct?

In EU is there only one model ps50b855 or 58 inches and is the same as 860 with 24P night/day option and BLUE LED. jenseike has a 855. in Germany the called 859. but the point is that there is only one model in each country, not two as in the U.S.


I do not want to see blu-ray without Cinema Smooth(24P), because it will stutters.
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post #98 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 01:22 PM
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This is a continuation of the review I started on the 63B550, which can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16465584
This time I will review the new super slim B860 plasma, see how it compares to the B550, and provide measurements of the B860 and contrast ratio results for both. I had the opportunity to perform a full ISF calibration on both these new plasmas and watch some demo material on both calibrated sets.
I decided to take some out of the box measurements of the B860 before any changes were made. Attached are the results for standard, eco, and movie modes. Standard was pretty bad; anything watched in uncalibrated standard mode is not going to be close to accurate. It wasn't even blazingly bright at 42 fL. Movie mode was quite accurate; the gamma and grayscale were not too far off target, and the color primary points were just a little narrow. It put out 38.5 fL with a 100% white window, which is adequate but a little on the low side for most living rooms. Overall movie mode looked very good for a set prior to calibration, but it did look a little dull to me.
I started the calibration of the B860 and checked out the service menu. It was disappointingly sparse, just as it was on the B550. No secret goodies here. I decided to just do the calibration in the user menu.
Unlike the B550, the B860 has full CMS adjustments; it's possible get amazing color accuracy from this set. Unlike the wannabe CMS adjustments in some other TV brands, it looks like Samsung did a great job implementing this.
The grayscale and gamma both improved, though the set was still a little too dark and a little too blue with very dark images. These are very minor criticisms, though; the gamma and grayscale performance were both very, very good.
Light output improved to 45.5 fL, which added more punch to the picture.
Overall, I was very happy with how the B860 calibrated. Measurements are attached. Curiously, though, I found that I was able to coax slightly more light output from the B550 than the B860. I could not take the contrast (picture) control as high on the B860 without compromising performance. The advantage here goes to the B550, because it's slightly higher light output will make it suitable for brighter living rooms. It's a small difference, though, only equivalent to 3-4 clicks of the contrast control. However, the B860 had better measuring colors than the B550 due to it's more thorough picture controls. Would the differences be enough to be visible?
Next I measured the contrast ratio of both sets. I used a meter that is very accurate at low light (Milori Trichromat-1) and had a black blanket draped over the set while the measurement was taken. The full on/off contrast ratio (after calibration with a small window for 100% white), which gives an indication of how black the set can go in a fade-to-black scene in a movie or show, was 2481 on the B860 and 2546 on the B550. The modified ANSI measurement, which gives a better idea of real world contrast, was 883 on the B860 and 1067 on the B550. The higher numbers for the B550 are due mainly to it's higher light output.
I have measured the contrast ratios for the Panasonic 800u, Panasonic G10, and Samsung B7100 LED backlit LCD in prior reviews. I will be measuring a 9g Pioneer Kuro (the contrast King of plasmas) soon and will add it's numbers as soon as I can.
After calibration, I looked at the same program material on both sets one right after the other. I looked for differences between the two Samsungs as well as how they compared to the Pioneer 9G Elite Kuro, going from memory of the 111FD I had done earlier that day and the dozens of 111FD's and 151FD's I've done in the last several months.
They were viewed in a living room with moderate light, though the light decreased as the evening wore on.
The first thing that struck me about the B860 was how rich the colors were. Faces didn't look sunburnt, but the colors were very vibrant. That color vibrancy and richness is what manufacturers are going for when they add red push, but here it was achieved accurately. The colors looked more vibrant than with the Pioneer Kuro's ISF modes.
It also looked very contrasty; dark images looked a little too dark, and shadow detail was a little hard to see. That was not the result of poor black level retention as I might suspect (it had no problem in that regard), so I believe it was due to the very slightly high gamma at the low end. It was not enough to make the image look bad; in fact, many people would prefer it. It's the opposite presentation of a Panasonic 800u, which in THX mode comes out of black faster and looks a bit washed out to some people because of it. The Pioneer Kuro ISF modes are in the middle (and most accurate) in this regard, and also have the most accurate measuring gamma.
Both the B550 and the B860 looked absolutely grain free and smooth, in a good way. Scenes that look noisy and grainy on many sets look cleaner and clearer on the Samsungs. The Pioneer Kuros have a noisier look to their color, and the Panasonic 800u and G10 seems to be in between the Kuro and the Samsungs in this regard.
Blacks looked very deep in this environment; from the measurements I know the blacks are not quite as deep as the G10 and Kuros, but in a typical living room it's hard to tell. In a dark theater room the Kuro would live up to it's stellar reputation, though, and I don't think it would be subtle.
I was able to see some minor differences between the B860 and B550, but they definately looked more similar than different. The slightly higher light output of the B550 was just barely visible. The color of the B550 was just a bit different, as expected; sometimes I felt yellows were pushed a bit more on the B550 and sometimes I thought flesh tones looked a bit more natural on the B860, but it was hard to tell.
Overall I feel that the B860 is an excellent display, with textbook measurements and a grain free picture that is rich in both in contrast and color. Since the Kuros have been discontinued, it will be up to Samsung and Panasonic to keep advancing the plasma state of the art.
LL
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LL

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post #99 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcardman View Post

In EU is there only one model ps50b855 or 58 inches and is the same as 860 with 24P night/day option and BLUE LED. jenseike has a 855. in Germany the called 859. but the point is that there is only one model in each country, not two as in the U.S.


I do not want to see blu-ray without Cinema Smooth(24P), because it will stutters.

The UK version(Samsung PS58B850) has cinema smooth,but i'm not sure about the night/day option.
If the 850 has the night/day option,the US are getting a poor deal
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post #100 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by emelioestaves View Post

Hi zpert,

I am just responding to your Best Buy not carrying the 860. I work for a Best Buy and though we do not have a Magnolia store we can still order Magnolia TVs for customers, I have done so on several occasions. All the TVs are in everyones system to ring up generally. I would advise you to check with them again and make sure the salesperson you were working with was not just uninformed. He/She may have simply checked their inventory for this TV in a system called "RSS". If they are not a magnolia store it would not return a result for this TV but they would just need to change the store number to one that is a Magnolia or simply try and place an order through one of our ordering systems. I am wondering if he/she even tried to place an order or if they just "checked their stock"

Look at the Best Buy website and pull up the 860. Write down the SKU # found on the product page somewhere near the model number or price and take that to them. Have them try and place an order through ROS if you need delivery or with Green Screen for ordering it for pick up from the store.

Just wanted to give you some tips to try since I know I work with a few people who don't know much and would do something like tell a customer we can't order a certain product just because our store does not carry it. Let me know too if they still say they can't and if so why not? I am curious.

Ok, heres the deal!! I went back in to Best Buy and talked to the same manager, only this time, he called the Magnolia store manager and asked how he could get it to me. The ONLY way the Magnolia store could do it was to have me talk to a rep in Minnesota at the Magnolia store, give them my info, such as name, Best Buy credit card, etc. That way, they rang it up there, and I was buying the TV for sure.

Now, they will ship it out to the Best Buy here, which should be here mid-June, and they'll hold it in their warehouse until I can move in to my new house on July 1st!!!!!! This is so awesome!!! I'm so excited! I totally understand anyone getting an 850, as I saw one in BB and it looked amazing, but I just felt I needed to go with the 860 for design and knowing I had the configuration options.

emelioesteves, THANK YOU SO MUCH for writing me and telling me that!!! Because you did that, I went back in, and can now get the BB reward points, AND the 3 year 0% financing that I wanted! Thanks a bunch!!!
Paul
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post #101 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zpert View Post

Ok, heres the deal!! I went back in to Best Buy and talked to the same manager, only this time, he called the Magnolia store manager and asked how he could get it to me. The ONLY way the Magnolia store could do it was to have me talk to a rep in Minnesota at the Magnolia store, give them my info, such as name, Best Buy credit card, etc. That way, they rang it up there, and I was buying the TV for sure.

Now, they will ship it out to the Best Buy here, which should be here mid-June, and they'll hold it in their warehouse until I can move in to my new house on July 1st!!!!!! This is so awesome!!! I'm so excited! I totally understand anyone getting an 850, as I saw one in BB and it looked amazing, but I just felt I needed to go with the 860 for design and knowing I had the configuration options.

emelioesteves, THANK YOU SO MUCH for writing me and telling me that!!! Because you did that, I went back in, and can now get the BB reward points, AND the 3 year 0% financing that I wanted! Thanks a bunch!!!
Paul

Hey, No problem....glad it all worked out. I still think they should have been able to do it there but maybe it is because they may not have a Magnolia store anywhere near by that shares the same Distribution Center like we do here, so that might have been why they could not order it, not really just because it is only Magnolia. But either way, as long as you don't mind waiting and it works out in your best interests than that is all that matters. You're gonna love the set by the way. I have the 850 and it is gorgeous, picture and design.
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post #102 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

This is a continuation of the review I started on the 63B550, which can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16465584
This time I will review the new super slim B860 plasma, see how it compares to the B550, and provide measurements of the B860 and contrast ratio results for both. I had the opportunity to perform a full ISF calibration on both these new plasmas and watch some demo material on both calibrated sets.
I decided to take some out of the box measurements of the B860 before any changes were made. Attached are the results for standard, eco, and movie modes. Standard was pretty bad; anything watched in uncalibrated standard mode is not going to be close to accurate. It wasn't even blazingly bright at 42 fL. Movie mode was quite accurate; the gamma and grayscale were not too far off target, and the color primary points were just a little narrow. It put out 38.5 fL with a 100% white window, which is adequate but a little on the low side for most living rooms. Overall movie mode looked very good for a set prior to calibration, but it did look a little dull to me.
I started the calibration of the B860 and checked out the service menu. It was disappointingly sparse, just as it was on the B550. No secret goodies here. I decided to just do the calibration in the user menu.
Unlike the B550, the B860 has full CMS adjustments; it's possible get amazing color accuracy from this set. Unlike the wannabe CMS adjustments in some other TV brands, it looks like Samsung did a great job implementing this.
The grayscale and gamma both improved, though the set was still a little too dark and a little too blue with very dark images. These are very minor criticisms, though; the gamma and grayscale performance were both very, very good.
Light output improved to 45.5 fL, which added more punch to the picture.
Overall, I was very happy with how the B860 calibrated. Measurements are attached. Curiously, though, I found that I was able to coax slightly more light output from the B550 than the B860. I could not take the contrast (picture) control as high on the B860 without compromising performance. The advantage here goes to the B550, because it's slightly higher light output will make it suitable for brighter living rooms. It's a small difference, though, only equivalent to 3-4 clicks of the contrast control. However, the B860 had better measuring colors than the B550 due to it's more thorough picture controls. Would the differences be enough to be visible?
Next I measured the contrast ratio of both sets. I used a meter that is very accurate at low light (Milori Trichromat-1) and had a black blanket draped over the set while the measurement was taken. The full on/off contrast ratio (after calibration with a small window for 100% white), which gives an indication of how black the set can go in a fade-to-black scene in a movie or show, was 2481 on the B860 and 2546 on the B550. The modified ANSI measurement, which gives a better idea of real world contrast, was 883 on the B860 and 1067 on the B550. The higher numbers for the B550 are due mainly to it's higher light output.
I have measured the contrast ratios for the Panasonic 800u, Panasonic G10, and Samsung B7100 LED backlit LCD in prior reviews. I will be measuring a 9g Pioneer Kuro (the contrast King of plasmas) soon and will add it's numbers as soon as I can.
After calibration, I looked at the same program material on both sets one right after the other. I looked for differences between the two Samsungs as well as how they compared to the Pioneer 9G Elite Kuro, going from memory of the 111FD I had done earlier that day and the dozens of 111FD's and 151FD's I've done in the last several months.
They were viewed in a living room with moderate light, though the light decreased as the evening wore on.
The first thing that struck me about the B860 was how rich the colors were. Faces didn't look sunburnt, but the colors were very vibrant. That color vibrancy and richness is what manufacturers are going for when they add red push, but here it was achieved accurately. The colors looked more vibrant than with the Pioneer Kuro's ISF modes.
It also looked very contrasty; dark images looked a little too dark, and shadow detail was a little hard to see. That was not the result of poor black level retention as I might suspect (it had no problem in that regard), so I believe it was due to the very slightly high gamma at the low end. It was not enough to make the image look bad; in fact, many people would prefer it. It's the opposite presentation of a Panasonic 800u, which in THX mode comes out of black faster and looks a bit washed out to some people because of it. The Pioneer Kuro ISF modes are in the middle (and most accurate) in this regard, and also have the most accurate measuring gamma.
Both the B550 and the B860 looked absolutely grain free and smooth, in a good way. Scenes that look noisy and grainy on many sets look cleaner and clearer on the Samsungs. The Pioneer Kuros have a noisier look to their color, and the Panasonic 800u and G10 seems to be in between the Kuro and the Samsungs in this regard.
Blacks looked very deep in this environment; from the measurements I know the blacks are not quite as deep as the G10 and Kuros, but in a typical living room it's hard to tell. In a dark theater room the Kuro would live up to it's stellar reputation, though, and I don't think it would be subtle.
I was able to see some minor differences between the B860 and B550, but they definately looked more similar than different. The slightly higher light output of the B550 was just barely visible. The color of the B550 was just a bit different, as expected; sometimes I felt yellows were pushed a bit more on the B550 and sometimes I thought flesh tones looked a bit more natural on the B860, but it was hard to tell.
Overall I feel that the B860 is an excellent display, with textbook measurements and a grain free picture that is rich in both in contrast and color. Since the Kuros have been discontinued, it will be up to Samsung and Panasonic to keep advancing the plasma state of the art.

Hi Chad B !!!

Thanks for taking the time to Wright and post your review
Looks like i will not be missing my old LX508D,i sold 2 weeks ago
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post #103 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 02:09 PM
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I wonder if the B650 will strike a good balance between light output and color punch?.

That's interesting that he's saying the B550 would be better in bright rooms due to the added light output. I would have thought it would be the opposite with the better anti-glare coating on the B850/860...?

Aside from that, I guess the results are about what we expected. A great TV with blacks that are not quite the best, but outstanding color and overall PQ.
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post #104 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenseike View Post

Since you work in the elctronic buisniss let me ask you this.. Do you they save more on letting out a unit on a panel costing $2, making two different panels and then esambling them two different ways or do you think that making one and same panel, same esambling and so.... come on... I would not hire you!! you can just buy another tv if you cant understand it..

I am not angry at all. I really dont care. I just dont understand how somebody can be thinking so litle logical as you are. I dont care if the evidence dont work for you.. that is your problem, not mine. I got my evidence, I bouht the tv based on it and I got it confirmed..

we are working the toyota way and that's basically the best way to make profit...one at a time and yeah we make 2 different boards if we can save a couple of bucks...we even change screws to save pennies...that way you can save hundred thousands per year...that's simple

Anyway that's it too much about this it won't go anywhere I do believe just like you that this TV is probably the same...just wanted some more proofs
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding
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post #105 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad B View Post

This is a continuation of the review I started on the 63B550, which can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16465584
This time I will review the new super slim B860 plasma, see how it compares to the B550, and provide measurements of the B860 and contrast ratio results for both. I had the opportunity to perform a full ISF calibration on both these new plasmas and watch some demo material on both calibrated sets.
I decided to take some out of the box measurements of the B860 before any changes were made. Attached are the results for standard, eco, and movie modes. Standard was pretty bad; anything watched in uncalibrated standard mode is not going to be close to accurate. It wasn't even blazingly bright at 42 fL. Movie mode was quite accurate; the gamma and grayscale were not too far off target, and the color primary points were just a little narrow. It put out 38.5 fL with a 100% white window, which is adequate but a little on the low side for most living rooms. Overall movie mode looked very good for a set prior to calibration, but it did look a little dull to me.
I started the calibration of the B860 and checked out the service menu. It was disappointingly sparse, just as it was on the B550. No secret goodies here. I decided to just do the calibration in the user menu.
Unlike the B550, the B860 has full CMS adjustments; it's possible get amazing color accuracy from this set. Unlike the wannabe CMS adjustments in some other TV brands, it looks like Samsung did a great job implementing this.
The grayscale and gamma both improved, though the set was still a little too dark and a little too blue with very dark images. These are very minor criticisms, though; the gamma and grayscale performance were both very, very good.
Light output improved to 45.5 fL, which added more punch to the picture.
Overall, I was very happy with how the B860 calibrated. Measurements are attached. Curiously, though, I found that I was able to coax slightly more light output from the B550 than the B860. I could not take the contrast (picture) control as high on the B860 without compromising performance. The advantage here goes to the B550, because it's slightly higher light output will make it suitable for brighter living rooms. It's a small difference, though, only equivalent to 3-4 clicks of the contrast control. However, the B860 had better measuring colors than the B550 due to it's more thorough picture controls. Would the differences be enough to be visible?
Next I measured the contrast ratio of both sets. I used a meter that is very accurate at low light (Milori Trichromat-1) and had a black blanket draped over the set while the measurement was taken. The full on/off contrast ratio (after calibration with a small window for 100% white), which gives an indication of how black the set can go in a fade-to-black scene in a movie or show, was 2481 on the B860 and 2546 on the B550. The modified ANSI measurement, which gives a better idea of real world contrast, was 883 on the B860 and 1067 on the B550. The higher numbers for the B550 are due mainly to it's higher light output.
I have measured the contrast ratios for the Panasonic 800u, Panasonic G10, and Samsung B7100 LED backlit LCD in prior reviews. I will be measuring a 9g Pioneer Kuro (the contrast King of plasmas) soon and will add it's numbers as soon as I can.
After calibration, I looked at the same program material on both sets one right after the other. I looked for differences between the two Samsungs as well as how they compared to the Pioneer 9G Elite Kuro, going from memory of the 111FD I had done earlier that day and the dozens of 111FD's and 151FD's I've done in the last several months.
They were viewed in a living room with moderate light, though the light decreased as the evening wore on.
The first thing that struck me about the B860 was how rich the colors were. Faces didn't look sunburnt, but the colors were very vibrant. That color vibrancy and richness is what manufacturers are going for when they add red push, but here it was achieved accurately. The colors looked more vibrant than with the Pioneer Kuro's ISF modes.
It also looked very contrasty; dark images looked a little too dark, and shadow detail was a little hard to see. That was not the result of poor black level retention as I might suspect (it had no problem in that regard), so I believe it was due to the very slightly high gamma at the low end. It was not enough to make the image look bad; in fact, many people would prefer it. It's the opposite presentation of a Panasonic 800u, which in THX mode comes out of black faster and looks a bit washed out to some people because of it. The Pioneer Kuro ISF modes are in the middle (and most accurate) in this regard, and also have the most accurate measuring gamma.
Both the B550 and the B860 looked absolutely grain free and smooth, in a good way. Scenes that look noisy and grainy on many sets look cleaner and clearer on the Samsungs. The Pioneer Kuros have a noisier look to their color, and the Panasonic 800u and G10 seems to be in between the Kuro and the Samsungs in this regard.
Blacks looked very deep in this environment; from the measurements I know the blacks are not quite as deep as the G10 and Kuros, but in a typical living room it's hard to tell. In a dark theater room the Kuro would live up to it's stellar reputation, though, and I don't think it would be subtle.
I was able to see some minor differences between the B860 and B550, but they definately looked more similar than different. The slightly higher light output of the B550 was just barely visible. The color of the B550 was just a bit different, as expected; sometimes I felt yellows were pushed a bit more on the B550 and sometimes I thought flesh tones looked a bit more natural on the B860, but it was hard to tell.
Overall I feel that the B860 is an excellent display, with textbook measurements and a grain free picture that is rich in both in contrast and color. Since the Kuros have been discontinued, it will be up to Samsung and Panasonic to keep advancing the plasma state of the art.

Awesome review, as usual. Just one question, what is the minimum luminance of the 2009 Samsungs? Thanks.
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post #106 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhythmic View Post

I wonder if the B650 will strike a good balance between light output and color punch?.

That's interesting that he's saying the B550 would be better in bright rooms due to the added light output. I would have thought it would be the opposite with the better anti-glare coating on the B850/860...?

Aside from that, I guess the results are about what we expected. A great TV with blacks that are not quite the best, but outstanding color and overall PQ.


regarding this, there is one thing that I am missing from this test and that is actually seeing the 860 in a bright room since I dont think it is only the light output that are counting but also the AR coating that will keep the blacks more black in bright conditions and this will make the 860 better looking picture during daytime conditions..

Jens
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Thank you very much Chad for the review!

"Blacks looked very deep in this environment; from the measurements I know the blacks are not quite as deep as the G10 and Kuros, but in a typical living room it's hard to tell."

This review pretty much confirms what everyone already knew, and what many of us have been saying all along--the Sammys are capable of reproducing rich accurate colors, a slightly sharper more detailed pic than their competitors, but they just aren't quite there yet on the blacks. This is Samsung's top plasma this year and it is not even as dark as the mid-range G10 Panny. If Samsung could just get the blacks significantly deeper next year there would be no more need for a Kuro. I think Samsung's 50% lower blacks claim was a bit of hype.
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Originally Posted by jenseike View Post

regarding this, there is one thing that I am missing from this test and that is actually seeing the 860 in a bright room since I dont think it is only the light output that are counting but also the AR coating that will keep the blacks more black in bright conditions and this will make the 860 better looking picture during daytime conditions..

Jens

Sorry Jens, but in a very bright room the B860 doesn't even look as black as the B750 LCD from Samsung. So enjoy your 8 series PDP's from Samsung for the nice colors and the detailed, low-noise picture, but there will be no bragging rights for Samsung plasma this year in blacks. I tried pointing this out on the 2009 Samsung plasma forum, but all I got for it was to be called an LCD fanboy.

The review by Chad also confirms that the 860 is not delivering a very high level of light output. Sure, plenty for a moderately lit to dark room, but if in a bright room an LED/LCD from Samsung will clearly outshine the PDP.

So you folks can continue to call me an LED/LCD fanboy all you want, but as I said, the top LED's/LCD's can keep up or even best these Samsung PDP's in brighter conditions.

Not everyone watches TV in the dark most or all the time. If they do, they can just get a projector.

Samsung PDP for nighttime viewing
Samsung LED/LCD for brighter daytime viewing
Kuro Elite still best for reference viewing
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post #109 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by H_Prestige View Post

Awesome review, as usual. Just one question, what is the minimum luminance of the 2009 Samsungs? Thanks.

I'd like to know this as well. I believe Chad measured the G10 at .008fL and I have seen reviews that put the 2008 Samsungs at .025 fL.

I'm dying to know what the 2009 measure at.

I also believe Chad measured the contrast of the G10 at 8000:1 which is more than 3 times better than the Samsungs.
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post #110 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 04:00 PM
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Hmm, a bit disappointing regarding the blacks... I'm starting to get second thoughts about this set since my room is rather bright. I've thought about the UN46B6000 since I really like the thin design, but I'm so afraid of flashlighting and backlight uniformity issues.

I'm really confused now... can't get an LCD without backlight issues (unless you spend $3000+) and can't get my plasmas with the deepest blacks and keep the thin design.
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post #111 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Sorry Jens, but in a very bright room the B860 doesn't even look as black as the B750 LCD from Samsung. So enjoy your 8 series PDP's from Samsung for the nice colors and the detailed, low-noise picture, but there will be no bragging rights for Samsung plasma this year in blacks. I tried pointing this out on the 2009 Samsung plasma forum, but all I got for it was to be called an LCD fanboy.

The review by Chad also confirms that the 860 is not delivering a very high level of light output. Sure, plenty for a moderately lit to dark room, but if in a bright room an LED/LCD from Samsung will clearly outshine the PDP.

So you folks can continue to call me an LED/LCD fanboy all you want, but as I said, the top LED's/LCD's can keep up or even best these Samsung PDP's in brighter conditions.

Not everyone watches TV in the dark most or all the time. If they do, they can just get a projector.

Samsung PDP for nighttime viewing
Samsung LED/LCD for brighter daytime viewing
Kuro Elite still best for reference viewing

As much as i liked my LX508D for the black level,i always felt the image was a little soft and the picture a bit noisy for my liking,i think this screen will be perfect for me as i never watch tv in total dark anyway.
I may change my mined when it arrives next week lol

I see you prefer LED/LCD that's great,but the flashing would drive me mad
I do like your comments because it make the forum more interesting!!!
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Originally Posted by Dolfan349 View Post

Hmm, a bit disappointing regarding the blacks... I'm starting to get second thoughts about this set since my room is rather bright. I've thought about the UN46B6000 since I really like the thin design, but I'm so afraid of flashlighting and backlight uniformity issues.

I'm really confused now... can't get an LCD without backlight issues (unless you spend $3000+) and can't get my plasmas with the deepest blacks and keep the thin design.

You and me both, brother :-).
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post #113 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dolfan349 View Post

Hmm, a bit disappointing regarding the blacks... I'm starting to get second thoughts about this set since my room is rather bright. I've thought about the UN46B6000 since I really like the thin design, but I'm so afraid of flashlighting and backlight uniformity issues.

I'm really confused now... can't get an LCD without backlight issues (unless you spend $3000+) and can't get my plasmas with the deepest blacks and keep the thin design.

panasonic g15?
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post #114 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 06:07 PM
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Thanks for the review. I was really considering getting a B850 instead of the Panny V10, mainly because of aesthetic reasons (much thinner, the Panny has the silver on the bottom), but I think I will now stick with the V10. Great blacks are the main reason I want a plasma over an LCD.
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post #115 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 06:08 PM
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This is a continuation of the review I started on the 63B550, which can be found here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16465584
This time I will review the new super slim B860 plasma, see how it compares to the B550, and provide measurements of the B860 and contrast ratio results for both. I had the opportunity to perform a full ISF calibration on both these new plasmas and watch some demo material on both calibrated sets.
I decided to take some out of the box measurements of the B860 before any changes were made. Attached are the results for standard, eco, and movie modes. Standard was pretty bad; anything watched in uncalibrated standard mode is not going to be close to accurate. It wasn't even blazingly bright at 42 fL. Movie mode was quite accurate; the gamma and grayscale were not too far off target, and the color primary points were just a little narrow. It put out 38.5 fL with a 100% white window, which is adequate but a little on the low side for most living rooms. Overall movie mode looked very good for a set prior to calibration, but it did look a little dull to me.
I started the calibration of the B860 and checked out the service menu. It was disappointingly sparse, just as it was on the B550. No secret goodies here. I decided to just do the calibration in the user menu.
Unlike the B550, the B860 has full CMS adjustments; it's possible get amazing color accuracy from this set. Unlike the wannabe CMS adjustments in some other TV brands, it looks like Samsung did a great job implementing this.
The grayscale and gamma both improved, though the set was still a little too dark and a little too blue with very dark images. These are very minor criticisms, though; the gamma and grayscale performance were both very, very good.
Light output improved to 45.5 fL, which added more punch to the picture.
Overall, I was very happy with how the B860 calibrated. Measurements are attached. Curiously, though, I found that I was able to coax slightly more light output from the B550 than the B860. I could not take the contrast (picture) control as high on the B860 without compromising performance. The advantage here goes to the B550, because it's slightly higher light output will make it suitable for brighter living rooms. It's a small difference, though, only equivalent to 3-4 clicks of the contrast control. However, the B860 had better measuring colors than the B550 due to it's more thorough picture controls. Would the differences be enough to be visible?
Next I measured the contrast ratio of both sets. I used a meter that is very accurate at low light (Milori Trichromat-1) and had a black blanket draped over the set while the measurement was taken. The full on/off contrast ratio (after calibration with a small window for 100% white), which gives an indication of how black the set can go in a fade-to-black scene in a movie or show, was 2481 on the B860 and 2546 on the B550. The modified ANSI measurement, which gives a better idea of real world contrast, was 883 on the B860 and 1067 on the B550. The higher numbers for the B550 are due mainly to it's higher light output.
I have measured the contrast ratios for the Panasonic 800u, Panasonic G10, and Samsung B7100 LED backlit LCD in prior reviews. I will be measuring a 9g Pioneer Kuro (the contrast King of plasmas) soon and will add it's numbers as soon as I can.
After calibration, I looked at the same program material on both sets one right after the other. I looked for differences between the two Samsungs as well as how they compared to the Pioneer 9G Elite Kuro, going from memory of the 111FD I had done earlier that day and the dozens of 111FD's and 151FD's I've done in the last several months.
They were viewed in a living room with moderate light, though the light decreased as the evening wore on.
The first thing that struck me about the B860 was how rich the colors were. Faces didn't look sunburnt, but the colors were very vibrant. That color vibrancy and richness is what manufacturers are going for when they add red push, but here it was achieved accurately. The colors looked more vibrant than with the Pioneer Kuro's ISF modes.
It also looked very contrasty; dark images looked a little too dark, and shadow detail was a little hard to see. That was not the result of poor black level retention as I might suspect (it had no problem in that regard), so I believe it was due to the very slightly high gamma at the low end. It was not enough to make the image look bad; in fact, many people would prefer it. It's the opposite presentation of a Panasonic 800u, which in THX mode comes out of black faster and looks a bit washed out to some people because of it. The Pioneer Kuro ISF modes are in the middle (and most accurate) in this regard, and also have the most accurate measuring gamma.
Both the B550 and the B860 looked absolutely grain free and smooth, in a good way. Scenes that look noisy and grainy on many sets look cleaner and clearer on the Samsungs. The Pioneer Kuros have a noisier look to their color, and the Panasonic 800u and G10 seems to be in between the Kuro and the Samsungs in this regard.
Blacks looked very deep in this environment; from the measurements I know the blacks are not quite as deep as the G10 and Kuros, but in a typical living room it's hard to tell. In a dark theater room the Kuro would live up to it's stellar reputation, though, and I don't think it would be subtle.
I was able to see some minor differences between the B860 and B550, but they definately looked more similar than different. The slightly higher light output of the B550 was just barely visible. The color of the B550 was just a bit different, as expected; sometimes I felt yellows were pushed a bit more on the B550 and sometimes I thought flesh tones looked a bit more natural on the B860, but it was hard to tell.
Overall I feel that the B860 is an excellent display, with textbook measurements and a grain free picture that is rich in both in contrast and color. Since the Kuros have been discontinued, it will be up to Samsung and Panasonic to keep advancing the plasma state of the art.

Thanks for the review Chad! Just one question. I noticed in your G10 review you measured a modified ANSI of 3892 in Custom mode and with the 8 series Samsungs you're getting 883. Am I comparing apples to oranges or is there really that big a significant difference in black levels. Do you remember what the modified ANSI of the Kuro was? Thanks.
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Sorry Jens, but in a very bright room the B860 doesn't even look as black as the B750 LCD from Samsung. So enjoy your 8 series PDP's from Samsung for the nice colors and the detailed, low-noise picture, but there will be no bragging rights for Samsung plasma this year in blacks. I tried pointing this out on the 2009 Samsung plasma forum, but all I got for it was to be called an LCD fanboy.

That's what happens when you keep trying to convince a whole forum by posting the same things about LED/LCD in a plasma thread on a plasma forumsection again and again and again

Quote:


So you folks can continue to call me an LED/LCD fanboy all you want, but as I said, the top LED's/LCD's can keep up or even best these Samsung PDP's in brighter conditions.

I think that's a statement most people won't get into an argument with you about.
It's common knowledge that LCD usually does better then plasma in a bright environment

I personally wouldn't buy the edge backlit LED TV's btw.
If I'd buy LCD I'd go for a screen that does local dimming, like the A950 and B750. Or otherwise the much cheaper B650. No flashlighting for me...

Quote:


Not everyone watches TV in the dark most or all the time. If they do, they can just get a projector.

Projectors have their own set of drawbacks compared to TV's...

Quote:


Samsung PDP for nighttime viewing
Samsung LED/LCD for brighter daytime viewing
Kuro Elite still best for reference viewing

I have a PN50A550 and it works just fine at daytime. As far as I've read the B's will do even better, so I think thats a very black/white statement.
Personally, if I'd pickup LCD again, I'd mostly do so for its other advantages (quiet operation, no worries about IR, lower powerconsumption, less bulk).
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post #117 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 06:55 PM
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nice review chad! makes me feel good about my B560.

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post #118 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Sorry Jens, but in a very bright room the B860 doesn't even look as black as the B750 LCD from Samsung. So enjoy your 8 series PDP's from Samsung for the nice colors and the detailed, low-noise picture, but there will be no bragging rights for Samsung plasma this year in blacks. I tried pointing this out on the 2009 Samsung plasma forum, but all I got for it was to be called an LCD fanboy.

The review by Chad also confirms that the 860 is not delivering a very high level of light output. Sure, plenty for a moderately lit to dark room, but if in a bright room an LED/LCD from Samsung will clearly outshine the PDP.

So you folks can continue to call me an LED/LCD fanboy all you want, but as I said, the top LED's/LCD's can keep up or even best these Samsung PDP's in brighter conditions.

Not everyone watches TV in the dark most or all the time. If they do, they can just get a projector.

Samsung PDP for nighttime viewing
Samsung LED/LCD for brighter daytime viewing
Kuro Elite still best for reference viewing

They are all great displays, I myself will stay will PDP for another year, We will see what next year brings.

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post #119 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhythmic View Post

I wonder if the B650 will strike a good balance between light output and color punch?.

That's interesting that he's saying the B550 would be better in bright rooms due to the added light output. I would have thought it would be the opposite with the better anti-glare coating on the B850/860...?

Aside from that, I guess the results are about what we expected. A great TV with blacks that are not quite the best, but outstanding color and overall PQ.

I actually was not aware of the feature list of each set, so I didn't know that the B860 was supposed to have a better anti glare coating. In the room they were in, it actually seemed the opposite, but it may have been due to where they were mounted: the B550 was high up on the wall, typical over-the-fireplace type of mounting; looking up at it from sitting on the floor (I usually set my equipment up on the floor to calibrate) it did not seem to be picking up much glare or reflection. The B860 was sitting on the floor, at my eye level, and I was often aware of seeing my reflection when looking at it.
I would not consider this the last word on the subject. Glare bothers me too, but it's not something that I was able to fairly compare due to the different mounting. With them being at very different heights and slightly different angles, they were probably reflecting different parts of the room.

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post #120 of 3219 Old 05-19-2009, 08:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolfan349 View Post

Hmm, a bit disappointing regarding the blacks... I'm starting to get second thoughts about this set since my room is rather bright. I've thought about the UN46B6000 since I really like the thin design, but I'm so afraid of flashlighting and backlight uniformity issues.

I'm really confused now... can't get an LCD without backlight issues (unless you spend $3000+) and can't get my plasmas with the deepest blacks and keep the thin design.


Actually, you can get a thin plasma with deep blacks, in what--about a month? Z1! It will only set you back what...like 5 or 6k?

Not every single Luxia has bad clouding/flashlight issues...the problem does vary quite a bit. I think they are overpriced for what you get, so I don't plan on getting one, but if I did pony up the kinda cash they want for one, I would definitely get it from a store that had a liberal exchange policy, and I would just exchange it a few times until I got one where the flashlighting was very minimal. I have seen a 55 inch which only had very minor flashlighting in the bottom right corner, and I have heard others claim that they got one free of flashlights. Others I have seen were just horrible when it came to flashlighting. So I think it is a quality control issue, in addition to the limits of the technology.

Anyway you could always check out the B750 LCD. I think it puts out a high quality picture, as long as you do not have to sit off-angle very much. I don't particularly care for bluish blacks myself, so it's not exactly my cup of tea. I think the blacks on the Sammy 860 would be deep enough to satisfy me, so I would stick with the PDP for the viewing angles, and the better motion.
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