So what are other Pio owners gonna buy next time around? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Pio wont likely be a choice for many of us when we get ready to get our next plasma so the daunting task of selecting another mfg to provide us with a good plasma will eventually require our attention. Of course, our expectations are SKY HIGH after experiencing the KURO line so the bar has been set.

Are Panny or Sammy up to the task? Is there another high-end brand that might suffice? Does it not matter since we'll end up stuck with a lame LCD if plasmas dont keep enough market-share?

It prolly doesnt matter much right now but the thought of "settling" for something scares me. Unless the other companies have caught up. Hopefully, my fears are unfounded. I have been hearing good things coming from Camp Sammy and Camp Panny so thats good news at least.
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post #2 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 01:06 PM
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Sammy and Pana is not on par with KURO just yet and I fear that the next generation won't be either. Pana cuts too much on internal electronics and they sets doesn't do correct de-interlacing at the moment for example.

Samsung still has too much dithering and retention in my opinion. I'm still considering the B850 though.

Maybe we just have to wait for OLED. A large part of making a good TV is calibration and correct picture parameters, sure, but OLED has some actual panel advantages such as no color filters, almost perfect blacks and almost perfect viewing angles.
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post #3 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 01:22 PM
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based on what panny is charging for their z series, and yet still inferior to the kuros that are much cheaper, i highly doubt their proposed "ecc panel" will make it to the market any time soon. i dont know if a prototype was ever even shown to the public. its pretty safe to say that the kuros wont be topped until a better tech is released. and who knows how long that will be before we see reasonable oled sizes and prices.
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post #4 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 01:27 PM
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They're gonna hang onto their Pioneer Kuros for at least two or three panel generations and hope by then that either Panasonic, Samsung or LG have significantly raised the performance stakes.

It'll still be another few years beyond that before OLED is ready to enter the picture at any halfway decent size and price.

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post #5 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 01:33 PM
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I just got this 500M and I plan on holding on to it until OLED gets it's act together. In terms of price and quality. Quality meaning it must best the 500M in terms of black levels, color reproduction, output brightness, etc.
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post #6 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 01:33 PM
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I havent really been following the news, why aren't people going to being Pio again?
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post #7 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 01:33 PM
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Yeah, we still have to wait for OLED some years but it's a very interesting technology. Hopefully LG will soon launch their 15-inch OLED to at least give Sony some kind of competition. Prices need to come down but OLED has already made its way into phones and other small devices and that an important step (LCD was introduced the same way)
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post #8 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

They're gonna hang onto their Pioneer Kuros for at least two or three panel generations and hope by then that either Panasonic, Samsung or LG have significantly raised the performance stakes.

It'll still be another few years beyond that before OLED is ready to enter the picture at any halfway decent size and price.

Did you check out the calibration results, from the flat panel shoot out, at Value Electronics dot com? Some big surprises in the results. Just page down until you come to the lineup that was included, and you can click on the calibration links for each model.

One big surprise: D-Nice rated the Samsung Plasma model over the Panasonic V10 model, and it looks like the calibration figures support his conclusion.

In the LCD group; Check out the new LG LED BLU local dimming unit. It beat out Samsung and Sony.

I expect that within a couple of years, both Samsung and Panasonic will have Plasma models available, which will be satisfactory replacements for the defunct Pioneer units. I doubt if LG will. Their shoot out plasma model did not do very well in the shoot out. I would not be very surprised if this turns out to be LG's last year in the Plasma market.

Considering how well their new LED LCD set performed, and how poorly their Plasma did, it is not to hard to see where they are devoting the most of their R&D efforts. They are also working hard on OLED development.

I expect that OLED will take over from LCD. It is still hard for me to tell if it will also be the end of Plasma. It all depends on how many people will still prefer the look of a phosphors display technology.
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post #9 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spincut View Post

I havent really been following the news, why aren't people going to being Pio again?

Wow, you really haven't been following the news. Pioneer will NO longer produce plasma TV's. This announcement was made months ago. Sad....but true.

Denon AVR-X2000------>Def Tech PM1000's------>Def Tech PC2000------->Sub(TBD)
Pioneer Pro111FD viewed from 7'------>Picture mode, ISF Day(calibrated by umr)
Sony PS3

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post #10 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 02:14 PM
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Greenland - I went to the site this morning, but it's got all those hieroglyphic graphs 'n stuff. I don't know how to make heads or tails from them and I'm not really interested in learning how.. just looking for the cliff notes version so that I can get an idea of just how close or far away any of them are from Kuro overall performance in 2009.

As far as how well Samsung performed, I have no doubt that Samsung (and Panasonic) can perform well at many different picture aspects, even today. It's just that old nag, black level, that I have my concerns about whether or not either of them will be able to match or even get very close to Kuro any time soon, then, how long before this will be trickled down from their top-of-the-line models. As it stands, it looks like black level matching will be 2 to 4 generations away yet: another generation or two to match Kuro black levels, then another one or two for the trickle-down.

I don't consider myself a videophile at all except for this one aspect... middlin' black levels are very distracting to me. Well, that and LCD off-center picture fade and motion lag & motion resolution loss, neither or which I cannot stomach either. I'm fairly oblivious to most other typical complaints though; color inaccuracy, red push, green push, flicker, over-sharpening artifacts, etc.

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post #11 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 02:58 PM
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I think it will be quite some time before they completely outclass the Kuro. Kuro has the little things that make it unique. Sammy and Panny could match picture quality in let's say a year or two but they won't top all the features the Kuro has. If you get a Kuro I think it will be good for at least, 5-7 year investment because it will take OLED a while to be affordable to most consumers and it will be at it's highest stage of development "reference standard" by then. Unless Sammy and Panny pull out some miraculous tech for plasma, I would get a Kuro now and enjoy the 1080P generation until OLED and even higher resolutions come out.

Awaiting the Reference Standard in Blu Ray REGION FREE Player Technology and EW service..............................still waiting. :)
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post #12 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 03:28 PM
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In many years I will buy what is providing the best picture/performance.

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post #13 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjrgamer View Post

I think it will be quite some time before they completely outclass the Kuro. Kuro has the little things that make it unique. Sammy and Panny could match picture quality in let's say a year or two but they won't top all the features the Kuro has. If you get a Kuro I think it will be good for at least, 5-7 year investment because it will take OLED a while to be affordable to most consumers and it will be at it's highest stage of development "reference standard" by then. Unless Sammy and Panny pull out some miraculous tech for plasma, I would get a Kuro now and enjoy the 1080P generation until OLED and even higher resolutions come out.


Hi,

I agree with you because brands like Panny & Samsung make models to a budget and then market accordingly. They will not even really care that much about beating Kuro as long as they have an advantage over each other - they know that they target the masses and the performance they offer is more than suitable for that purpose. The Kuro was a no compromise design for best performance and things like price and target customers were last in the equation.

Where we Kuro owners will lose out will be in all the multi-media, internet TV and interactive features the new sets will have as well as form factor in some cases. The only caveat I can see to some thing bettering G9 Kuro in the next year or so is if Pioneer licensed out some or all of the Kuro tech to any of the other brands or another brand commissioned Pioneer to develop sets for them in part or whole - we know it exists!


Bazzy!
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post #14 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi,

I agree with you because brands like Panny & Samsung make models to a budget and then market accordingly. They will not even really care that much about beating Kuro as long as they have an advantage over each other - they know that they target the masses and the performance they offer is more than suitable for that purpose. The Kuro was a no compromise design for best performance and things like price and target customers were last in the equation.

Where we Kuro owners will lose out will be in all the multi-media, internet TV and interactive features the new sets will have as well as form factor in some cases. The only caveat I can see to some thing bettering G9 Kuro in the next year or so is if Pioneer licensed out some or all of the Kuro tech to any of the other brands or another brand commissioned Pioneer to develop sets for them in part or whole - we know it exists!


Bazzy!

I'm sure we'll find some tech of Pioneers in the other brands, but it's funny because Sammy has the colors and better looking panel, Panny has the deeper black levels and longest plasma tenure around, but will they be able to put it together to make a Kuro killer, I don't think so. They might win a shootout or two but and jump for joy "finally" but the Kuro is a very rare kind of TV you find only once a generation also known as the "reference standard" or close to it. They would have to combine both Sammy and Panny engineers and they still might not get it right. Don't forget LG has the customization. Pioneer has it all in one TV. I don't need 3 plasmas.

Awaiting the Reference Standard in Blu Ray REGION FREE Player Technology and EW service..............................still waiting. :)
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post #15 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 03:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Management View Post

I just got this 500M and I plan on holding on to it until OLED gets it's act together. In terms of price and quality. Quality meaning it must best the 500M in terms of black levels, color reproduction, output brightness, etc.

So I'm assuming you are very happy with the 500M?
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post #16 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Greenland - I went to the site this morning, but it's got all those hieroglyphic graphs 'n stuff. I don't know how to make heads or tails from them and I'm not really interested in learning how.. just looking for the cliff notes version so that I can get an idea of just how close or far away any of them are from Kuro overall performance in 2009.

As far as how well Samsung performed, I have no doubt that Samsung (and Panasonic) can perform well at many different picture aspects, even today. It's just that old nag, black level, that I have my concerns about whether or not either of them will be able to match or even get very close to Kuro any time soon, then, how long before this will be trickled down from their top-of-the-line models. As it stands, it looks like black level matching will be 2 to 4 generations away yet: another generation or two to match Kuro black levels, then another one or two for the trickle-down.

I don't consider myself a videophile at all except for this one aspect... middlin' black levels are very distracting to me. Well, that and LCD off-center picture fade and motion lag & motion resolution loss, neither or which I cannot stomach either. I'm fairly oblivious to most other typical complaints though; color inaccuracy, red push, green push, flicker, over-sharpening artifacts, etc.

Well, as far as black levels, or great contrast numbers are concerned; Panasonic has indicated that their 2010 models will make massive gains in black levels, compare to the 2009 models. They put it out in some literature(I just can not lay my hands on it, a present). It was a chart showing that the contrast levels would be at 40,000 to 1 this year, and close to infinite contrast in the 2010 models.

The Panny rep at the shootout, also said that that is what the 2010 models would have, so that is why I feel fairly confident that within a couple of years, they will be close to Pio performance levels. As far as color accuracy issues, that is another matter, since Panasonic never seems to get their act together, in that area, and then compounds the problem by not providing some decent user tools to tweak the damn things.

As for Samsung, they are doing good on colors, their contrast figures are just as good as Panasonic's, and if Samsung can not match the Panny 2010 levels, then they can always do a little bit of their habitual infringing, in order to keep up.
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post #17 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 04:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Well, as far as black levels, or great contrast numbers are concerned; Panasonic has indicated that their 2010 models will make massive gains in black levels, compare to the 2009 models. The put it out on some literature(I just can not lay my hands on it, a present). It was a chart showing that the contrast levels would be at 40,000 to 1 this year, and close to infinite contrast in the 2010 models.

The Panny rep at the shootout, also said that that is what the 2010 models would have, so that is why I feel fairly confident that within a couple of years, they will be close to Pio performance levels. As far as color accuracy issues, that is another matter, since Panasonic never seems to get their act together, in that area, and then compounds the problem by not providing some decent user tools to tweak the damn things.

As for Samsung, they are doing good on colors, their contrast figures are just as good as Panasonic's, and if Samsung can not match the Panny 2010 levels, then they can always do a little bit of their habitual infringing, in order to keep up.

LOL...I love that "habitual infringing"...just reserve a court date for Samsung and all is good.
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post #18 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 04:47 PM
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in 10 years I'll buy an upgrade. The 151 will have to make due till then. Will Sony still be in business by then?
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post #19 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 04:58 PM
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I'm a KRP-500M owner and I absolutely love it to death. The recently announced patch to enable the ISFccc modes makes me feel like I'll soon be in heaven.

As far as my next video display purchase when the time comes? I really don't know. Can we predict the future? Can we predict what will be on the market 3-- 2-- even one year from now? Maybe plasma will be my next choice... Maybe it won't. Maybe OLED -- with its ability to shut off individual pixels when showing black -- will be out 1-3 years from now, with larger sceen sizes and affordable prices.

I may be crazy for saying this, but I hope a manufacturer comes out with a display in 2010 that surpasses the 9g KURO in black level and picture performance. I would be bummed out if I had no choice but to lower the standards set by my 500M.

What, if anything, is going to happen to Pioneer's Extreme Contrast Concept technology they demonstrated at the January 2008 CES?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Where we Kuro owners will lose out will be in all the multi-media, internet TV and interactive features the new sets will have as well as form factor in some cases.

Who cares about that crap. The only thing that matters is picture quality -- especially black level.
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post #20 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 05:03 PM
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My vote is to be satisfied with your Kuro now and if you've got the extra cash but a nice JVC projector. The picture isn't as good as the Kuro but the contrast is excellent (provided you have 100% light control) and the size of the picture will make the biggest Kuro looks like it belongs in the kitchen.
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post #21 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 05:11 PM
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Up until 2 weeks ago, I was using a 34" Sony KVR-34XBR910 CRT TV.

The picture quality was amazing, and I had no qualms about continuing to use it. It was 5 1/2 years old at the time.

I just replaced it with a Pioneer KRP-600M, and I'm still getting used to the idea of a TV set that is 60" in size. I did not consider the Sony to be "small" - and this is coming from someone who regularly sat 10-12' away from it.

I dunno - maybe it's because when I was growing up in the 60's and early 70's, I had a 13" tube set in my bedroom that glowed green for the first 5 minutes it was on, until I gave it a gentle tap on the side to engage the red & blue guns - but I've always been perfectly happy with "smaller" TV sizes (prior to the 34" I had a Sony 32" XBR for about 12 years). I do have to say now that I am pretty astounded with how large these 60" KUROs are. (Yes, I've seen the 65" Panasonic model so I'm aware they go even larger.)

I am definitely in the "Hope my 600M will last until we get 3-D Holographic OLED sets" camp
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post #22 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickjack View Post

Sammy and Pana is not on par with KURO just yet and I fear that the next generation won't be either. Pana cuts too much on internal electronics and they sets doesn't do correct de-interlacing at the moment for example.

Samsung still has too much dithering and retention in my opinion. I'm still considering the B850 though.

Maybe we just have to wait for OLED. A large part of making a good TV is calibration and correct picture parameters, sure, but OLED has some actual panel advantages such as no color filters, almost perfect blacks and almost perfect viewing angles.

I am afraid you don't know what you are talking about
the new Panasonics do perfect de-interlacing


Video processing: In our resolution tests the TC-PG10 series performed very well. It delivered every line of 1080i and 1080p content with still resolution test patterns, properly de-interlaced both film and video-based 1080i content with the "3:2 pull-down" control set to "On" (a first for Panasonic in our experience, whose displays have always failed the film test) and passed all 1080 lines of motion resolution, matching the S1 and beating the Pioneer, which hit between 900 and 1,000 lines. As usual, we found it basically impossible to discern any differences in resolution, motion or otherwise, between the Panasonic and the other 1080p displays in our test when watching actual program material as opposed to test patterns.
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post #23 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 05:30 PM
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Wow, you really haven't been following the news. Pioneer will NO longer produce plasma TV's. This announcement was made months ago. Sad....but true.

well wait, what are they gonna do instead? I remember ther announcement that they would no longer produce the whole tv, but instead assemble the parts (which I think has already happened).

I would think since they make the best plasma and have patented all this deep black kuro technology and stuff, that if they stopped selling plasmas alogether (really? this announcement you speak of is different from the one that they just arent going to totally manufacture them from scratch right?) they would need to replace something better with it, right? Or are they just getting out of the display business?
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post #24 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 06:48 PM
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lol, spincut, where the hell have you been??? I'm afraid your last statement is the correct one. Pioneer is OUT as a display maker of any kind. They had financial troubles too severe to continue, especially in this economy. So.. no more plasma, no LCD, no future technology that they've decided to pursue aggressively, no partnership deal such as Panasonic manufactures and puts on the Pioneer nameplate with Pioneer technology parts, no NOTHING! They are tightening up, sticking to car audio, home audio products and not much else from the consumer electronics standpoint.

What, have you been Rip Van Winkling it for the last several months? There was an 80 million page dedicated thread about the big announcement. I'm sure you could dig it up and spend several months reading through it.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #25 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post


As for Samsung, they are doing good on colors, their contrast figures are just as good as Panasonic's, and if Samsung can not match the Panny 2010 levels, then they can always do a little bit of their habitual infringing, in order to keep up.

lol, I hope you're right (not about that last bit, but otherwise!). The Panasonic reps words are reassuring. I suspect Samsung will still lag behind on black levels has they always do, though I do like what they've done otherwise. And their daytime black levels sound impressive from the reports I've seen.. not sure if this was discussed or compared at the shootout.

Thanks for the summary.

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post #26 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

lol, spincut, where the hell have you been??? I'm afraid your last statement is the correct one. Pioneer is OUT as a display maker of any kind. They had financial troubles too severe to continue, especially in this economy. So.. no more plasma, no LCD, no future technology that they've decided to pursue aggressively, no partnership deal such as Panasonic manufactures and puts on the Pioneer nameplate with Pioneer technology parts, no NOTHING! They are tightening up, sticking to car audio, home audio products and not much else from the consumer electronics standpoint.

What, have you been Rip Van Winkling it for the last several months? There was an 80 million page dedicated thread about the big announcement. I'm sure you could dig it up and spend several months reading through it.

i've been...umm BUSY....doing....STUFF......nya!

But yeah that's a bizarre turnaround since they seemed all ramp up for the Panasonic partnership, and were talking up those LCD's. Heck, maybe if they didnt, like, divy up their Kuro line into 3-4 different versions that may have been smart.

Still, such a shame, I mean, are they at least going to bestow all that great tech unto someone else? would be a shame for all those great Kuro patented secrets to just die with them. I mean if they are having financial troubles they should at least sell the technology to someone that can do something with it.
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post #27 of 40 Old 06-29-2009, 07:56 PM
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Busy with what, like, a life? what's that?!?

Yes, it did seem like for a while there they had big plans in the works to partner up with Panasonic and Sharp, for assistance with plasmas and lcds, respectively. But seemingly out of nowhere came the big announcement that they were leaving the display business alltogether.

Despite the apparent logic of doing so, there doesn't seem to be a plan in the works to sell their plasma trade secrets. There has been a fair bit of discussion on this point and the last I knew, prospects of such a deal were not looking likely. Odd, I know, but there it is.. you'd think they'd like to get some money out of it to salvage what they can from their ground breaking Kuro work.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #28 of 40 Old 06-30-2009, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Busy with what, like, a life? what's that?!?

Yes, it did seem like for a while there they had big plans in the works to partner up with Panasonic and Sharp, for assistance with plasmas and lcds, respectively. But seemingly out of nowhere came the big announcement that they were leaving the display business alltogether.

Despite the apparent logic of doing so, there doesn't seem to be a plan in the works to sell their plasma trade secrets. There has been a fair bit of discussion on this point and the last I knew, prospects of such a deal were not looking likely. Odd, I know, but there it is.. you'd think they'd like to get some money out of it to salvage what they can from their ground breaking Kuro work.

I am not so sure that they could make very much by selling their plasma patents. Once they are out of the business, then there are only three possible buyers left, and I doubt if any of them would be willing to pay very much for patents, that would require them to make huge changes in their production facilities. Besides; Pioneer sold Sharp Electronics an ownership share in the company, and I doubt if Sharp would go along with having Pioneer's video processing secrets being sold to their competitors.
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post #29 of 40 Old 06-30-2009, 10:38 AM
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good pts., and now that you've stated them, I recall reading about all that some time ago here on the forums.

Mourning the disappearance of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #30 of 40 Old 06-30-2009, 11:30 AM
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in 10 years I'll buy an upgrade. The 151 will have to make due till then. Will Sony still be in business by then?

Yeah, I don't plan to make a move until I run the 151 and 111 in the ground. Of course I could move somewhere and things change. Then we'll see but if I'm staying where I'm at for a while (which I really don't want to do) I wont be upgrading jack for quite some time.

AT HAMMOND ROBOTICS WE'RE BRINGING THE FUTURE ... HOME
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