The Official Pioneer 9G North American KRP-500M / KRP-600M Owner's Discussion Pt. II - Page 102 - AVS Forum
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post #3031 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Although I can't speak to limited as quoted there are devices that clip (or limit) video level signals to the range 16-235 (or so). These devices won't pass, process or display these out of range signals which are commonly called blacker than black (BTB) or whiter than white* (WTW). A common example in this thread is the KRP which clips BTB and a bit above reference white unless DRE is enabled. Below black is only useful in setting black level (called Brightness on the Kuro) but there's a small bit of above ref. white content in consumer video.

*WTW is more properly know as above reference white since such signals are considered by most to be acceptable in consumer content.

bodosom,

Do you mean that the KRP clips BTB? The 8Gs don't so thats new to me. So there is no way to show below black by increasing brightness on the KRPs?
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post #3032 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 06:58 PM
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^^ Bodosom, Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. Are you saying that the KRP's have a hard clip below reference black? I can see digital 1 to 15 (pick any good pattern) on the KRP by turning up the Brightness level. To me that means it is passing below reference black.

Edit: Venkatesh beat me to it.
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post #3033 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 07:31 PM
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Hey Guys, I'm considering buying a KRP500 and I was wondering, how does it handle switching between inputs? I'm going to be using my Harmony 880 to switch between my PC/PS3/Dtv box/XBOX360. Does switching inputs take a while? Is there an annoying popup HUD? Anyone have a shot of the screen? How long does a switch take? Is it good with Harmony remotes?
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post #3034 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venkatesh_m View Post

bodosom,

Do you mean that the KRP clips BTB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

Bodosom, Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. Are you saying that the KRP's have a hard clip below reference black?

I was being careless. My bad. Pick a good pattern with 1-16, run brightness up to about 10 with DRE off. You'll see what I internally note as the Kuro below black where I can't distinguish the interior of btb bars from the background. Now set DRE to low. That's what I'm used to seeing -- below black that looks just like above black swimming in a sea of gray. But I agree that there's btb information there since a real clip (like my current AVR) stops even the edges from being visible.
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post #3035 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnp614 View Post

Does switching inputs take a while? Is there an annoying popup HUD? Anyone have a shot of the screen?

Not so long. The standard info display pops up on input changes. It's about 5x5" in the upper left corner. There's a minimal example on page 74 of the manual.

If you have IP/Serial control you can turn the info pop-up off.
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post #3036 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 08:25 PM
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IP/Serial control? How long does the popup last? Is this TV too finicky for a non-enthusiast? I enjoy fine image quality but I dont want this TV to be hard to use. People like my girlfriend/mother need to be able to use my harmony and not have to mess with anything else to enjoy the set.
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post #3037 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnp614 View Post

People like my girlfriend/mother need to be able to use my harmony and not have to mess with anything else to enjoy the set.

The six-year-old granddaughter has already figured out how to do everything necessary to watch her Barbie Fairytopia DVDs or her Nick Jr. TV shows on our 600M, using all four remotes (600M, Pioneer 919 receiver, Comcast cable, Oppo).

Even more impressive, her grandmother a/k/a my SO has also manged to figure these things out, albeit with about twenty times the grumbling the six-year-old produced. So your resident females shouldn't have any real issues.
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post #3038 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I was being careless. My bad. Pick a good pattern with 1-16, run brightness up to about 10 with DRE off. You'll see what I internally note as the Kuro below black where I can't distinguish the interior of btb bars from the background. Now set DRE to low. That's what I'm used to seeing -- below black that looks just like above black swimming in a sea of gray. But I agree that there's btb information there since a real clip (like my current AVR) stops even the edges from being visible.

I looked at the AVS BL pattern at +10 and beyond and I see what you are describing. I also noticed: 1) With DRE on, the innermost middle of the below 16 bars still looks the same black to me, only a smaller area. It's almost like DRE smudges those highlighted edges inward a bit. 2) On the next pattern with the combo BTB/WTW bars, DRE on seems to have no (or maybe a lesser) effect on the inside of the bars while the background level appears to rise. 3) The bar edge effect does not appear on the trusty SD GetGray pattern that has digital 7, 14, 16 and so on. 4) When I set my BD and KRP both to RGB0-255, nothing at all is visible below 16...I was expecting to clearly see them all.

I can't explain #4, but depending on the background of these patterns, could we be seeing an illusion? That is, if the background is digital 0 or digital 16, as we raise brightness we are raising all the relative levels including the background so they don't appear as distinguished as we expect them to be? Or should I stop thinking about this before I get a headache?
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post #3039 of 7000 Old 11-03-2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnp614 View Post

Hey Guys, I'm considering buying a KRP500 and I was wondering, how does it handle switching between inputs? I'm going to be using my Harmony 880 to switch between my PC/PS3/Dtv box/XBOX360. Does switching inputs take a while? Is there an annoying popup HUD? Anyone have a shot of the screen? How long does a switch take? Is it good with Harmony remotes?

I can't imagine you switching inputs more often than once an hour. If so, the switching lag shouldn't bother you that much. I'd say it'd take about 4-5 seconds to switch inputs. There's a ~%5 screen sized popup on the top left, with information about the input (24bit, 36bit, etc.), screen stretch (Full, Wide, Zoom), and input name.
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post #3040 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 05:03 AM
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For those who are interested in the saga of the 500M vs. the 111 I was told last night that a small number of 111's on the build date that I have quite possibly could contain secret 10G sauce. Kind of makes sense since this is my second 111. The first had some DS issues that was pretty bad and some other quirks that allowed me to return it for a replacement. When I got the 111 I have now I made comment that it was darker and it was quite apparent to me when I first powered it up.

The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye.
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post #3041 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertoold View Post

I can't imagine you switching inputs more often than once an hour. If so, the switching lag shouldn't bother you that much. I'd say it'd take about 4-5 seconds to switch inputs. There's a ~%5 screen sized popup on the top left, with information about the input (24bit, 36bit, etc.), screen stretch (Full, Wide, Zoom), and input name.

Now here's another question about the popup. Does anyone have this tv with directv? Whenever I change the channel and it changes the source level say from 1080i to 720p or something my current magnavox pops up is HUD to tell me all that shiz has changed...EVERY time I change the channel. How does the KRP500 behave?


Also, how bad would it be in a rather high light environment? I rarely have any direct sunlight hitting the TV but the entire right side (when facing the TV) of my living room is windows. Would I be better off with that 55" vizio LEDTV?

Also is there a lot of image retention to worry about for when I play games like call of duty that do have some static-ish areas?
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post #3042 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VidPro View Post

For those who are interested in the saga of the 500M vs. the 111 I was told last night that a small number of 111's on the build date that I have quite possibly could contain secret 10G sauce. Kind of makes sense since this is my second 111. The first had some DS issues that was pretty bad and some other quirks that allowed me to return it for a replacement. When I got the 111 I have now I made comment that it was darker and it was quite apparent to me when I first powered it up.



What's the date on your 111? Funny thing is my 600M is dated NOV 08,while I've seen Feb 09, March 09 hope my M doesn't have 8G tech

I'm kidding

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post #3043 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 06:32 AM
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September 08 assembled 111FDs (contain August 08 PDP modules) were only built in 2 Pioneer facilities. Niether was the facility that the 500M/101FD PDP modules were built. Have you put a 0% stimuli test pattern up on both panels while they are side-by-side and your is out of the loop?
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Originally Posted by VidPro View Post

For those who are interested in the saga of the 500M vs. the 111 I was told last night that a small number of 111's on the build date that I have quite possibly could contain secret 10G sauce. Kind of makes sense since this is my second 111. The first had some DS issues that was pretty bad and some other quirks that allowed me to return it for a replacement. When I got the 111 I have now I made comment that it was darker and it was quite apparent to me when I first powered it up.

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post #3044 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 06:47 AM
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I have a question:

guys if the KRP 500m is still available when Im ready to purchase im going to have a rough time deciding what to buy.

Options:
1. KRp500m
2. 50V10
3. 42G10/15

My problem is that I want the KRP but am returning my 111fd to Pioneer for full refund because it buzzes like a Bud Light neon sign. (crazy loud). And a guy I was talkin with said he got a 500m and his buzzes like crazy. So its kinda making me lean towards the Panny due to the buzz Im returning my set for. How is the buzz on your guys 500m's. This conversation may be pointless seeing that these prolly wont be round when im ready to purchase.
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post #3045 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

September 08 assembled 111FDs (contain August 08 PDP modules) were only built in 2 Pioneer facilities. Niether was the facility that the 500M/101FD PDP modules were built. Have you put a 0% stimuli test pattern up on both panels while they are side-by-side and your is out of the loop?

I've taken the AVR out of the loop and compared DirecTV signals and I see absolutley no difference. I've done this several times watching a wide variety of HDTV programming. I will next try the 0% stimuli test pattern tonight when I get home. I would assume the best way to do this is to split the signal from the same source but I don't have the equipment.

By the way, I want to reiterate that the set looks amazing as it is now and I'm having a good time trying to see this difference. I just want to see the difference.

The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye.
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post #3046 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STILESP113 View Post

I have a question:

guys if the KRP 500m is still available when Im ready to purchase im going to have a rough time deciding what to buy.

Options:
1. KRp500m
2. 50V10
3. 42G10/15

My problem is that I want the KRP but am returning my 111fd to Pioneer for full refund because it buzzes like a Bud Light neon sign. (crazy loud). And a guy I was talkin with said he got a 500m and his buzzes like crazy. So its kinda making me lean towards the Panny due to the buzz Im returning my set for. How is the buzz on your guys 500m's. This conversation may be pointless seeing that these prolly wont be round when im ready to purchase.

I'm like you since i plan on the 500m myself.To my understanding they dont all buzz.Panny's also buzz.Maybe its the luck of the draw.But i'm interested aswell as to what all the buzz is about.
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post #3047 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VidPro View Post

I've taken the AVR out of the loop and compared DirecTV signals and I see absolutley no difference.

This is the problem It has always been said that the differences between the 500M/101FDs and the 111FD are only visable during low APL scenes or a 0% stimuli pattern. Anything else and they will look identical. If you really want to see if there is a difference, put a 0% stimuli pattern on both displays while they are side by side.
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post #3048 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

This is the problem It has always been said that the differences between the 500M/101FDs and the 111FD are only visable during low APL scenes or a 0% stimuli pattern. Anything else and they will look identical. If you really want to see if there is a difference, put a 0% stimuli pattern on both displays while they are side by side.

Ok then tonight is the night. Then I can start watching movies again instead of doing side-by-side tests.

The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye.
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post #3049 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 07:31 AM
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Man, thanks to whoever convinced me to pick up this set. My 500M arrived from Beach Camera yesterday absolutely spotless. Even out of the box, and then even after turning the contrast/brightness way down for break-in, the picture on this thing is just enthralling. Hell of an upgrade over my 2003 Samsung DLP.

I was worried about buzz after reading these forums a lot but my set doesn't seem to have any. There is a noticeable noise (more of a hum than a buzz) if I stick my head behind the set, but I don't exactly plan on doing that a lot.

The only thing that confused me initially is that I kept having to readjust the picture settings since they seemed to keep resetting to the default. Then I realized the set saves different picture settings for not only each input, but each resolution. Man, that is cool. Almost TOO much control, but cool.

Also, switching between inputs doesn't seem to take very long. I set the input delay on my Harmony at 500ms and it seems to work great. Speaking of, is there a list of ideal speed settings for Harmony remotes for this TV anywhere?

Anyway. I'm so excited to finally have my dream TV. Can't wait till it's broken in.
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post #3050 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnp614 View Post

Whenever I change the channel and it changes the source level say from 1080i to 720p or something my current magnavox pops up is HUD to tell me all that shiz has changed... How does the KRP500 behave?

I'm fairly confident that it doesn't do that (it's not convenient to test but I don't recall that as an issue). You can also run the receiver with a fixed output resolution instead of native mode. I've been unable to tell the difference.

Quote:
Also, how bad would it be in a rather high light environment?

You probably won't have a problem but no one here can tell you if you need more output than you can get in STANDARD mode.

Quote:
Also is there a lot of image retention to worry about for when I play games like call of duty that do have some static-ish areas?

There have been a few reports of medium-term (more than an hour) IR. Enough that suggests it might be a real issue with some panels in some circumstances. However I don't recall any reports of new displays that suffered from long-term retention. If you buy used then abuse is a possibility.
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post #3051 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

4) When I set my BD and KRP both to RGB0-255, nothing at all is visible below 16...I was expecting to clearly see them all.

This is exactly the sort of thing that concerns me about using video in something other then it's native color space:

How exactly is YCbCr 16-235 converted in to RGB 0-255?

Wouldn't 16 be mapped to 0, and 235 mapped to 255, and everything else in between scaled?

If so, then all cases of BTB and WTW would be wiped.

That's what I'd expect to happen when both sides *know* what's going on. However, with the bug if you feed the KRP RGB 16-235 it doesn't recognize it as such and treats it as-if it's RGB 0-255 meaning it performs no translation, so 16 stays 16, and 235 stays 235, but in the RGB 0-255 color space those settings are actually well above black and well below white.

As far as I know there's no concept of BTB or WTW in the RGB Full (0-255) color space.
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post #3052 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisOneKidMongo View Post

The only thing that confused me initially is that I kept having to readjust the picture settings since they seemed to keep resetting to the default. Then I realized the set saves different picture settings for not only each input, but each resolution. Man, that is cool. Almost TOO much control, but cool.

When did you notice this? Watching movies, cable, etc.
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post #3053 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

As far as I know there's no concept of BTB or WTW in the RGB Full (0-255) color space.

Ok, I need clarification on this. I thought RGB Full/0-255 was primarily for computer applications (video games, etc.). Don't these content producers include BTB and WTW in their content? How else then are we supposed to calibrate a display used primarily for these applications?

I ask because I want to use the S&M disc to calibrate for 2 sources: Xbox 360 games and an LG BD player. I obviously need to set the Xbox and Kuro to 0-255, but if this screws up the BTB and WTW bars on the test patterns, what do I do? Do I switch to 16-235 or just ignore the above/below reference bars?
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post #3054 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

I ask because I want to use the S&M disc to calibrate for 2 sources: Xbox 360 games and an LG BD player.

The S&M disc is intended for adjusting the video colorspace (YCC or RGB16). There are no patterns to adjust the PC colorspace/range. I'm unaware of any production standards for PC range game, film or video content that you'd use as the basis for calibration or adjustment.

I suppose you could contact the game designers regarding color temperature and gamma.
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post #3055 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

When did you notice this? Watching movies, cable, etc.

Just when dialing in the picture settings for each input. My cable box (1080i) and Wii (480p) share the component input through my receiver, and my PS3 has an HDMI input to itself. I thought I'd just have to adjust settings once per input, so I couldn't understand why I had to adjust again for the Wii after I already did for the cable box. I figured the 500M was somehow able to detect a different source and wanted recalibration for that. But then when I had to calibrate the PS3 three different times--for the 1080p menu, a 720p game, and I think again for a 1080/24 movie--did I start to understand. I was concerned I had a faulty monitor before that.
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post #3056 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STILESP113 View Post

I have a question:

guys if the KRP 500m is still available when Im ready to purchase im going to have a rough time deciding what to buy.

Options:
1. KRp500m
2. 50V10
3. 42G10/15

My problem is that I want the KRP but am returning my 111fd to Pioneer for full refund because it buzzes like a Bud Light neon sign. (crazy loud). And a guy I was talkin with said he got a 500m and his buzzes like crazy. So its kinda making me lean towards the Panny due to the buzz Im returning my set for. How is the buzz on your guys 500m's. This conversation may be pointless seeing that these prolly wont be round when im ready to purchase.


I have to turn the sound off and get right up to the screen to hear even a slight buzz. I have plenty of OCD issues regarding my other electronic equipment, so it's not like I'm just blissfully unaware.
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post #3057 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 12:12 PM
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Where are some good places to pick up a 500m from? Any forum sponsors that have any left?
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post #3058 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

This is exactly the sort of thing that concerns me about using video in something other then it's native color space:

How exactly is YCbCr 16-235 converted in to RGB 0-255?

Wouldn't 16 be mapped to 0, and 235 mapped to 255, and everything else in between scaled?

If so, then all cases of BTB and WTW would be wiped.

That's what I'd expect to happen when both sides *know* what's going on. However, with the bug if you feed the KRP RGB 16-235 it doesn't recognize it as such and treats it as-if it's RGB 0-255 meaning it performs no translation, so 16 stays 16, and 235 stays 235, but in the RGB 0-255 color space those settings are actually well above black and well below white.

As far as I know there's no concept of BTB or WTW in the RGB Full (0-255) color space.

I would expect the mapping to work as you described, but only Pioneer and our BD player manufacturers know the details. I plan on trying my older Oppo and see if the results are the same when forcing everything to 0-255 (not that anyone would normally do that for a video BD/DVD source).
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post #3059 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STILESP113 View Post

I have a question:

guys if the KRP 500m is still available when Im ready to purchase im going to have a rough time deciding what to buy.

Options:
1. KRp500m
2. 50V10
3. 42G10/15

My problem is that I want the KRP but am returning my 111fd to Pioneer for full refund because it buzzes like a Bud Light neon sign. (crazy loud). And a guy I was talkin with said he got a 500m and his buzzes like crazy. So its kinda making me lean towards the Panny due to the buzz Im returning my set for. How is the buzz on your guys 500m's. This conversation may be pointless seeing that these prolly wont be round when im ready to purchase.

I have zero buzz when muted at 6 inches from front.

KRP-500M
Pioneer Elite VSX-23TXH
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post #3060 of 7000 Old 11-04-2009, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scionracing View Post

Ok, I need clarification on this. I thought RGB Full/0-255 was primarily for computer applications (video games, etc.). Don't these content producers include BTB and WTW in their content? How else then are we supposed to calibrate a display used primarily for these applications?

Play native content with dark areas above 0, and light areas below 255?

You can go in to paint brush and fill in a picture with any custom color you wish. I just did so with a RGB value of (12,12,12) and it's clearly lighter then a black screen on my LCD monitor. Of course it's lighter than black when black is (0,0,0).

But I suppose you could adjust your monitor such that it was the same darkness.
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