The Official Pioneer 9G North American KRP-500M / KRP-600M Owner's Discussion Pt. II - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Kevin- View Post

Hey guys-- Last night I downloaded the AVSHD 709 calibration disc and ran it. It seemed to indicated, like Avia, that my Color setting needs to be up around 10.
For the brightness setting is bar #17 supposed to still be flashing? It is tough for me to get it to flash without being able to see the lower bars flashing as well. It seems like I need raise the brightness setting up to about 2 or 3. Particularly on the black level test that includes white bars on the top.

Are these settings along the same lines with what other folks who have used these patterns come up with??
On a side note, why are the results different when I use the blue color filter that came with the Avia disc and when I use the Blue only mode on the TV? Which is "correct?"

are you seeing the middle of the <17 bars flash, or just the outlines? Id ignore the outlines and only worry about seeing the actual bars flash
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post #542 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

Are you using the S&M color/tint pattern or a different pattern to do this from the same disk?

They have a standard SMPTE looking pattern and an alternate that looks like this. The first pattern is just like everyone else. The second gives me much better results by eye. I haven't seen an explanation for this alternate layout.

Quote:


It would seem really odd that the validated patterns on AVSHD and DVE would provide different results than S&M. Are you still using a non-zero tint value as well?

ISF tint is -1. But it will soon be time to do it all over again.
LL
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post #543 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

They have a standard SMPTE looking pattern and an alternate that looks like this. The first pattern is just like everyone else. The second gives me much better results by eye. I haven't seen an explanation for this alternate layout.


ISF tint is -1. But it will soon be time to do it all over again.

What color setting did you arrive at with AVSHD/DVE vs SMPTE?

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post #544 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

What color setting did you arrive at with AVSHD/DVE vs SMPTE?

The DVE pattern is SMPTE style. Other than the S&M HD color pattern they result in ~ +10.
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post #545 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

The DVE pattern is SMPTE style. Other than the S&M HD color pattern they result in ~ +10.

I was under the assumption that DVE still produced over saturated color on the KRPs.

What color setting did you arrive at with S&M?

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post #546 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Incorrect.

In the perfect world, a Blue only mode would be used to properly set the color saturation/decoding for the primary and secondary colors (along with a Green and Red only mode). In the real world, Pioneer's Blue only mode is not ideal as there are no exclusive saturation controls (the color control manipulates color saturation and luminance). Higher end Samsungs have these controls and use their Blue only mode in the correct manner.

Thanks for the info. D-Nice, I have one of those Higher End Samsungs, good to know.
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post #547 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

That's to be expected. The typical filter will leak other colors, more so as it ages. Blue Only Mode can't leak.

I did not know that! Good point.

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Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

Keep in mind that RGB 16 is reference black and therefore, in the the range of 16-235, RGB 17 is a hair above black and barely visible. While it may not obviously flash, you may be able to see a little faint flickering of the pixels if you look carefully enough and block some of the white text on the pattern with your hand. If you are in doubt, adjust it so that 18 is visible and 16 and below do not show flashing or edges.

And after all this effort you will find that it is still slightly wrong for 75% of satellite and cable HDTV, and for some blu-rays as well.

Okay, thanks.
I wasted about 90 minutes of my life today and watched the Streetfighter: legend of Chun Li Bluray. As reported in a review I read it seemed to have inconsistant and crappy black levels. I had my brightness set at +3. That may be one notch too high. I'll check again this evening.
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post #548 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by irfan View Post

Well said. I'll just add.. if YOU can see the difference in the 2, and that difference is worth the cost, then go with it. Really, its that simple. If they look close enough and one is cheaper, then go with the cheaper. Me, I can tell the difference between a Camry and an ES350, and i prefer the added luxury of the Lexus... not just to own a lexus, but because I feel its worth the cost and isnt breaking the bank. Now, if you can see the difference but you just dont care/cant justify it, then by all means, go cheaper!

Dont get the more expensive one just because its percieved to be better, g
et it because you can actually see its better and think its worth the cost. We cant make the decisions for you.

btw i prefer my IS350 over both

Irfan, I am not by any means saying the camry was "better" than the Lex, just saying the wife let me get away with not having to buy her the bling mobile since we had a 1yr old and a baby on the way and I quit my real job to start my own business... 3 yrs later I LOVE that camry but in 1-2 yrs more my days are numbered- she wants the bling mobile
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post #549 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irfan View Post

are you seeing the middle of the <17 bars flash, or just the outlines? Id ignore the outlines and only worry about seeing the actual bars flash

I think it was mostly the outlines of the bars under 17 that I can see flash at +3.
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post #550 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

I was under the assumption that DVE still produced over saturated color on the KRPs. What color setting did you arrive at with S&M?

~ +5 which is what I'm currently using although I set color and tint with a meter.

By the way I'm fairly confident it's over luminous not over saturated since I don't recall the color control changing the gamut. Checking that is on my todo list.
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post #551 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irfan View Post

are you seeing the middle of the <17 bars flash, or just the outlines? Id ignore the outlines and only worry about seeing the actual bars flash

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Kevin- View Post

I think it was mostly the outlines of the bars under 17 that I can see flash at +3.

I have to disagree with IRFan - The outlines are significant on that pattern - don't ignore them.
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post #552 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:14 PM
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My contract at work is ending soon and I find out next week if it is getting renewed. If it does, I'll want to celebrate and get myself something nice. If it doesn't I'll be looking for a job, putting all purchases (other than food and gas) on hold.

I know that supplies are a bit tight for all the Pio's and also know that the Pio's produce (what most would say is) the finest picture out there.

I've just started looking at this model and am doing so because I don't need or want speakers or tuner. I will buy a stand. My receiver will do the HDMI switching so I won't need more than 2. It just seems like the right way to go (as opposed to the 151 or 141FD).

To the point: I might not be able to afford calibration after this purchase... for a while. Will I be able to 'tune-in' the image to a 'serviceable' picture with just the standard user controls? I'm not technically adept enough to attempt the service menu stuff that fills this thread, so I'm sort of stuck just using what is easily available to me.

So.... Are the user controls for the 600M detailed enough to provide fairly good adjustments... or am I missing the point?

Thanks.

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post #553 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by shane55 View Post

So.... Are the user controls for the 600M detailed enough to provide fairly good adjustments... or am I missing the point?

Thanks.

If you're willing to purchase and install the ISFccc patch you'll have close to all the controls you have with your commercial panny.

BTW - Where did you get your TV stand?
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post #554 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

They have a standard SMPTE looking pattern and an alternate that looks like this.

The arrangement of colors on the SMPTE-like patterns is not well suited for distinguishing the subtle differences, and consequently more refined patterns were developed. And you might be right, but you may also be influenced by your measured results. In any case, 75% blue against 75% white should always get you to the same place. Then again, 100% on 100% may provide a different result, I don't know if that is the case here.
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post #555 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

The outlines are significant on that pattern - don't ignore them.

Why is that?

In a peripheral observation I'm pretty sure those are what D-Nice referred to as side-effects.
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post #556 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:26 PM
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Blue only demo.

Even more peripheral after 2:15 but clever gadgets are clever gadgets. I'd totally get one of those if it wasn't $1,100.
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post #557 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn1 View Post

I was under the assumption that the Blue Only mode on the 500M was NOT correct, and that you shouldn't use it, because it will give you oversaturated colors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

I was under the assumption that DVE still produced over saturated color on the KRPs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

By the way I fairly confident it's over luminous not over saturated since I don't recall the color control changing the gamut.

I was going to comment on the incorrect usage of over/under "saturated" as well, and you beat me to it. You are correct, at some point the Color control increases only luminance and has no affect on saturation. I measured the point where it stops effecting saturation, and of course I don't remember it, but it was somewhere on the negative side...like somewhere between -12 and -7? It may increase saturation slightly past that point, but no more than the i1Pro can measure given its repeatability spec and behavior.
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post #558 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Why is that?

In a peripheral observation I'm pretty sure those are what D-Nice referred to as side-effects.

I validated it with a borrowed Accupel, which I unfortunately had to give back. I am not sure what context D-Nice referred to - was it DRE (our favorite topic)?
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post #559 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

And you might be right, but you may also be influenced by your measured results.

Always a risk but I try to "dither" it in to avoid imaginary similarity. That's another thing about visual techniques. They're prone to distraction and fatigue.
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post #560 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 08:57 PM
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That's another thing about visual techniques. They're prone to distraction and fatigue.

The brain doesn't even need fatigue to interpret visual information incorrectly. I am sure you have seen the links to some of the impressive color illusions on the web that will have you staring at 2 colors and swearing they are different until they are shown in a more revealing context.
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post #561 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Magnus_CA View Post

If you're willing to purchase and install the ISFccc patch you'll have close to all the controls you have with your commercial panny.

BTW - Where did you get your TV stand?

http://www.mizzicohometheater.com/
Hand-made, high quality furniture. I had them make some adjustments so that the center speaker would fit (and one or two other things). Nice people. Hayward, CA.

As for the ISFccc... I just read the FAQ and the article that it links to and I'm still a bit confused. How would that benefit me if I don't have someone come in to set it? It doesn't seem very intuitive. Is the 'patch' something else?

Thanks, and sorry if these are really stupid questions.

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post #562 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 09:10 PM
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I am not sure what context D-Nice referred to

He was talking on YouTube.
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post #563 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shane55 View Post

As for the ISFccc... How would that benefit me if I don't have someone come in to set it?

It won't unless you copy some settings. Historically those have been provided by D-Nice as part of his procedure. So far there are none for 9G monitors and I'm not particularly sanguine regarding a change. That's what #7 in the Setttings section is about.
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post #564 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

It won't unless you copy some settings. Historically those have been provided by D-Nice as part of his procedure. So far there are none for 9G monitors and I'm not particularly sanguine regarding a change. That's what #7 in the Setttings section is about.

Makes sense... thanks.

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post #565 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by shane55 View Post

As for the ISFccc... I just read the FAQ and the article that it links to and I'm still a bit confused. How would that benefit me if I don't have someone come in to set it? It doesn't seem very intuitive. Is the 'patch' something else?

Thanks, and sorry if these are really stupid questions.

Thanks for the link, neighbor.

I think you'll want to do some more reading about ISFccc at the other forum.

You'll get your controls but you'll have to set them. Not sure what you were expecting. Worry about the patch or tweaking things later. You want this TV. You want this TV. You want this TV.
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post #566 of 7007 Old 07-28-2009, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Magnus_CA View Post

Thanks for the link, neighbor.

You want this TV. You want this TV. You want this TV.

You don't sound very sure.

Yes, of course I do. Wish me luck on the contract. If it's renewed... I'll get the TV. I'll get the TV. I'll get the TV.

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post #567 of 7007 Old 07-29-2009, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

I measured the point where it stops effecting saturation, and of course I don't remember it, but it was somewhere on the negative side...like somewhere between -12 and -7?

Ah, I would have only noticed if it was between 0-15.
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post #568 of 7007 Old 07-29-2009, 07:52 AM
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i know this is way of topic but i was just wondering....is everyone in here wealthy beyond my imagination?

people having multiple Kuros, others buying Lexus for wives, others having boats/yachts....damn it's crazy. i'm young and relatively "well-set" in life (ACCA qualified) but i'm sure i would never be like most in here.....just a BTW
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post #569 of 7007 Old 07-29-2009, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by elite-home View Post

Irfan, I am not by any means saying the camry was "better" than the Lex, just saying the wife let me get away with not having to buy her the bling mobile since we had a 1yr old and a baby on the way and I quit my real job to start my own business... 3 yrs later I LOVE that camry but in 1-2 yrs more my days are numbered- she wants the bling mobile

Oh no no... I was actually agreeing and reinforcing your post... trying to get across that its ones own call about if the price is worth the features it delivers! (and not rely on others to tell you what fits your own value judgement).
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post #570 of 7007 Old 07-29-2009, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

I have to disagree with IRFan - The outlines are significant on that pattern - don't ignore them.

I must be missing something...isnt the middle of a 17 IRE filled with 17/17/17? so if you an see the middle then its lighter than absolute video black (on a 16-235 scale). if its not visible its too dark. if you can see an outline but not the actual middle... how is that still significant? I figured those were video errors.
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