The Official Pioneer 9G North American KRP-500M / KRP-600M Owner's Discussion Pt. II - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 08:43 PM
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bodosom i noticed you mentioned the 24p but doesnt the 500M handle that frame rate?
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post #722 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I'm not convinced say YUV is a translation flub. Y** can't be confused with something else which I thought was a concern. As always patches welcome.

Nice obfuscation. Y** did that very well.

Y** probably didn't read the full Poynton article because the site is down, but here is a little more (and the highlights are his, not mine):

"This is a plea for precise terminology in video. The notation YUV, and
the term luminance, are widespread in digital video. In truth, digital
video almost never uses Y’UV color difference components, and never
directly represents the luminance of color science. The common terms
are almost always wrong. This note explains why. I urge video engi-
neers and computer graphics specialists to use the correct terms, almost
always Y’CBCR and luma"

Maybe y** can patch the FAQ with his book, as it is still in print: http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Video-HDTV-Algorithms-Interfaces/dp/1558607927/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1/192-3345375-5600947
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post #723 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

bodosom i noticed you mentioned the 24p but doesnt the 500M handle that frame rate?

Yes it does and it does so correctly but only with two of four settings. Pure Cinema is summarized here.
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post #724 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moggi1964us View Post

My room is 14 feet long by 9 feet wide, I sit at 9.5 feet from the TV.

If I get the 60" I won't have line of sight to the remote dimmer because it will be behiond the TV (and I am not moving either).

I cannot sit any further back because I have optimized the 5.1 and the Epic subwoofer is in its optimal postion (and I tried everywhere).

So; given those parameters....................50" or 60"?

Why would you sacrifice 10" for this trivial problem? You mean an IR receiver for the dimmer right? Get one of these. I had one, and ordered another one thinking the first one wasn't working well. After that I realized it was something else, but I kept them both anyway cause they're so damn useful. Now I use one for my receiver and the other one for my AC in the bedroom. No line of sight needed. You can even get extra RF transmitters and use only one RF receiver unit for one environment. Just need to put that one in a line of sight of all the IR devices you want to control. You even get an extra IR transmitter that you can connect to the back of the main unit, for two different lines of sight.
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post #725 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 09:21 PM
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Andy_o,

I was being a little toungue in cheek with the dimmer

I guess after close to 200 pages of to and fro, I just kinda wanted someone to unscramble my brain a little.

Is 60" too much for that size room (ceiling height is 6'6" - it is a basement)? Is the 500 so much better than the 600 in terms of blacks or are they worth giving up for the extra 10"?

I know so much of this comes down to personal taste and I guess I am looking for people who have a similar situation to mine.
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post #726 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

Nice obfuscation. Y** did that very well.

So you think I should be a tad more pedantic and use Y.* rather than Y**? I thought the spirit of the regex would suffice for those that were concerned and for everyone else it's just another string of glyphs.

Regarding the '. Although I'd rather read Wikipedia than Poynton I think they might agree (probably because he's a reference for the entry):

Quote:
YCbCr or Y'CbCr is a family of color spaces used as a part of the Color image pipeline in video and digital photography systems. Y' is the luma component and Cb and Cr are the blue-difference and red-difference chroma components. The prime (') on the Y is to distinguish the luma from luminance, meaning that light intensity is non-linearly encoded using gamma.

So I get that.

I suspect we have differing goals so I hope you can be convinced to write up something to go in the FAQ.
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post #727 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moggi1964us View Post

Is 60" too much for that size room (ceiling height is 6'6" - it is a basement)? Is the 500 so much better than the 600 in terms of blacks or are they worth giving up for the extra 10"?

I know so much of this comes down to personal taste and I guess I am looking for people who have a similar situation to mine.

Disclaimer: I think size-ism is silly and we were quite willing to move closer.

It is a matter of taste and you've phrased it so indicate your taste is for a larger screen so that's what you should get. A 60" panel will certainly fit in your space.

60" is bigger than 50". It's also more expensive, heavier, hotter and harder to mount. You can make a 50 appear as big as a 60 by moving closer. You can't make a 60 cheaper, lighter, cooler or as easy to mount. And you can't undo buyer's remorse.
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post #728 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

So you think I should be a tad more pedantic and use Y.* rather than Y**? I thought the spirit of the regex would suffice for those that were concerned and for everyone else it's just another string of glyphs.

How about just *? Who needs precision in a science forum anyway? I may take you up on the offer for the FAQ contribution (words, not dollars).
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post #729 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

and i cant even get a pro calibration done because of where i live.

If it's impossible for you to get a pro calibration done due to where you live. You can always buy a lower cost colorimeter and the home edition version of CalMAN, and learn to do it yourself. The cost of buying a lower end color meter and the home version of CalMAN, is about $400. Which is close to the same amount as what paying to have a calibration done would cost. Not to mention there is a big plus to doing it yourself, as you can always go back and redo it or touch it up at a later time and as many times as you want, with no added cost! You could save even more money by using the free Color HCFR calibration software instead of CalMAN if you wanted to, but I feel that even for a home user that CalMAN is worth the added cost.
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post #730 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

You can make a 50 appear as big as a 60 by moving closer. You can't make a 60 cheaper, lighter, cooler or as easy to mount.

The second is true, but the first one not so much. Moving farther and watching something bigger is more impressive because we have two eyes. Our brain knows which is bigger.
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post #731 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

You can make a 50 appear as big as a 60 by moving closer.

Perhaps, but you can make a 60 appear as big as a 73 by moving closer too.
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post #732 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moggi1964us View Post

.....Is 60" too much for that size room (ceiling height is 6'6" - it is a basement)? Is the 500 so much better than the 600 in terms of blacks or are they worth giving up for the extra 10"?.........

that 10" gets you 44% more screen area to enjoy. and your gonna be sitting there looking at it all the time.

the 600M is a great set and unless you had a 500M sitting there to compare those slightest differences in black levels you will never know there are any difference at all. go for the 600M.

HD HD HD I Need more HD, Yes I am a HD Addict :)
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post #733 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

The second is true, but the first one not so much. Moving farther and watching something bigger is more impressive because we have two eyes. Our brain knows which is bigger.

So everyone should prefer going to the drive-in?

Less facetiously I don't have stereo vision so maybe that's part why I'm unimpressed. Of course each time we've stepped up in size my wife also only notices for the first few days. Then the new display magically becomes the same size as the last one.
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post #734 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus_CA View Post

Perhaps, but you can make a 60 appear as big as a 73 by moving closer too.

True. But don't forget the hotter bit. We don't like being too close to the space heater. Of course come winter we may feel differently.
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post #735 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dssturbo1 View Post

that 10" gets you 44% more screen area to enjoy. and your gonna be sitting there looking at it all the time.

the 600M is a great set and unless you had a 500M sitting there to compare those slightest differences in black levels you will never know there are any difference at all. go for the 600M.

^He speaks the truth.
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post #736 of 7058 Old 08-06-2009, 11:45 PM
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So after this thread and a few private messages worth of helpful advice I purchased the 600M! I'm very excited. However, one issue still lays ahead of me.

I would like to mount my TV, but I live in apartments where I cannot put a wall mount. Thus I've been looking at TV stands that have attached mounts with them. I found one I am happy with, but I read in the faq in the beginning of this thread that the 600M can be tricky to mount because it does not have a normal mounting bracket in the back?

Well I was able to procure the manual for the stand/mount combo I wish to purchase. I was wondering if anyone could take a look for me and tell me if it will be able to successfully accommodate the 600M?

Here is the manual: http://www.whalenfurniture.com/pdf/i...ons/NV3IN1.pdf

The mounting instructions for plasmas above 32 inches starts on page 14 and goes to about page 18.

Sam's club has one on hold for me ready for pick up, but I don't want to lay down the money if it isn't going to be able to accommodate my TV. Could anyone who is knowledgeable on this issue please take a look at the manual (I provided the page number the mounting instructions start on above - page 14) and let me know if they think it will work?

I would really really appreciate it. Thanks so much
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post #737 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

So everyone should prefer going to the drive-in?

Less facetiously I don't have stereo vision so maybe that's part why I'm unimpressed. Of course each time we've stepped up in size my wife also only notices for the first few days. Then the new display magically becomes the same size as the last one.

It doesn't "become the same size", not even metaphorically. You just get used to the bigger size. I'll bet that your wife (who I assume does have stereo vision and better depth perception) and maybe you will notice if you go back to the smaller screen.
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post #738 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

i did check IRobot another reference quality blu ray and that looks amazing.....AS DID ON MY AQUOS....NOT BETTER. they were about the same. i am hoping that with some time the PQ gets better.

one thing i really need to mention though is the fact that my blacks arent black at all....so i am guessing something is really wrong. how can i test my blacks? can i simply turn off all the lights in the house and see if the screen blends in with the bezel?

Turn off all the lights. If you're watching a letterboxed movie, the black bars should come very close to blending into the bezel. If they don't, try this:

Ensure that the PS3 has the latest firmware installed.

Then change it from YCC to RGB. Make sure the 500M is set to RGB 16-235 (not Auto) under the Input control.

If nothing changes, run your HDMI directly to your TV from your PS3, bypassing the AVR.
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post #739 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 05:10 AM
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i will try this but obviously not now because the sun is up. but question, all PS3 faqs have said to leave YCC on for output, why do you say to turn it off and use RGB? it's just a question i have please dont think i am doubting you.
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post #740 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 05:24 AM
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The 500M is a bit idiosyncratic when it comes to RGB settings.

You don't have to wait for the sun to go down. Adjust your settings as I described and then see if the picture improves. If it does, it'll be easy to see right away, sun or not.
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post #741 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 06:22 AM
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Thank everyone. I will make a mockup of the two sizes and see how they 'fit'.

I will post back when I make a decision.

Right, I am off to read up on the BD-83 to make sure it hasn't developed any annoying faults since release
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post #742 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J0HNNY H0PK1NS View Post

Please do not talk about where to buy products(monitors, patch's etc).
As it is considered advertising.

I didn't tell anyone where to buy anything. I simply stated where I bought something.
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post #743 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

i will try this but obviously not now because the sun is up. but question, all PS3 faqs have said to leave YCC on for output, why do you say to turn it off and use RGB? it's just a question i have please dont think i am doubting you.

I have asked this before too with no definite answer. Does RGB signal look better than a YCbCr signal (didn't want to disappoint a certain somebody!) on the Kuro?

Pioneer KRP-500m
Panasonic 65VT50
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post #744 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J0HNNY H0PK1NS View Post

Please do not talk about where to buy products(monitors, patch's etc).
As it is considered advertising.

There you go a whopping 288 posts and wham , your in full control almost moderator like, really good stuff.
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post #745 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

Does RGB signal look better than a YCbCr signal (didn't want to disappoint a certain somebody!) on the Kuro?

No.
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post #746 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

I have asked this before too with no definite answer. Does RGB signal look better than a YCbCr signal (didn't want to disappoint a certain somebody!) on the Kuro?

You might find some differences between the two when viewing test patterns, but I don't think you will notice the difference watching movies or other content. And many thanks for the precise terminology!

-certain somebody
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post #747 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

i have the set up

PS3---->HDMI---->Pioneer 919
Pioneer 919---->HDMI---->KRP-500M

my settings for my PS3 are as follows:

BD/DVD Cinema Conversion: Automatic
BD/DVD Upscaler: Full Screen
BD/DVD Video Output format (HDMI): YCC
BD 1080p 24Hz output (HDMI): On
BD/DVD Dynamic range control: Automatic
Cross Color reduction filter: Off
RGB Full Range (HDMI): Limited
YCC Super-white (HDMI): On

Remove the 919 from the chain and connect the PS3 straight into the panel. Can you also post all of your settings for your KRP-500M... especially the HDMI settings.
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post #748 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 09:36 AM
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Is anyone using using a tv stand with attached mount with their 600M? Is anyone even using a wall mount not made by Pioneer?

The TV stand I ordered has to be picked up by tomorrow, but I'm thinking about just canceling the order, because I have no idea if the mount will fit the 600M with it's weird mounting surface. I also don't know how I will find out which tv stand with attached mount combos can fit the 600M
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post #749 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Megasabin View Post

Is anyone using using a tv stand with attached mount with their 600M? Is anyone even using a wall mount not made by Pioneer?

The TV stand I ordered has to be picked up by tomorrow, but I'm thinking about just canceling the order, because I have no idea if the mount will fit the 600M with it's weird mounting surface. I also don't know how I will find out which tv stand with attached mount combos can fit the 600M

I have a Salamander Designs triple synergy with a mount. I currently have my Elite 1140 mounted on it. To mount the 600M, I had to buy the expansion brackets to mount the 600M.
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post #750 of 7058 Old 08-07-2009, 10:19 AM
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here are my KRP settings

anything not noted is default

AV mode: Standard
Contrast: 40
Color temp: Mid-Low
Gamma: 2

Pro Adjust

Pure Cinema

Film mode: Advance
Text Optimisation: On
Intelligent Mode: Mode 1

Picture Detail

DRE Picture: Mid
Black Level: On
ACL: On
Enhancer mode: 2

Color Detail

CTI: On
Color Space: 2
Color Management: everything 0

Noise Reduction

3DNR: Mid
Field NR: Mid
Block NR: On
MOsquito NR: On

Drive mode: 1

Auto size: Off
Brightness Sync.: Fixed

Power Control

Energy save: Standard

Room Light sensor: Off

Input 5 (HDMI 1)

Input name: HDMI 1
Signal type: Video
Video: Auto

Screen size: Dot by Dot
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