The Official Pioneer 9G North American KRP-500M / KRP-600M Owner's Discussion Pt. II - Page 54 - AVS Forum
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post #1591 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DARQMAGE View Post

Maybe I oughta hire D-Nice to calibrate my 500M so I can see what all the hubbub is about...

Definitely worth the $$$.
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post #1592 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DARQMAGE View Post

Maybe I oughta hire D-Nice to calibrate my 500M so I can see what all the hubbub is about...

I'm not sure that it'd be a good fit for you based on your posting history since you seem to appreciate a more oversaturated, processed image. The ISF modes won't look anything like Dynamic.

Anyway, D-nice calibrated my 500M this weekend and I'll post my thoughts up later today.
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post #1593 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Anyway, D-nice calibrated my 500M this weekend and I'll post my thoughts up later today.

Looking forward to that.
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post #1594 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I'm not sure that it'd be a good fit for you based on your posting history since you seem to appreciate a more oversaturated, processed image. The ISF modes won't look anything like Dynamic.

Anyway, D-nice calibrated my 500M this weekend and I'll post my thoughts up later today.

thunderbird - you got your 500M calibrated this weekend???? and now letting us know??? cant wait to hear your reports.
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post #1595 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

I'm not sure that it'd be a good fit for you based on your posting history since you seem to appreciate a more oversaturated, processed image. The ISF modes won't look anything like Dynamic.

I was under the impression that professional calibration was a means of adjusting picture quality parameters unavailable to the layman or casual tinkerer. If calibration can improve the contrast, deepen the (already impressive) black level, improve sharpness (edge delineation) without ringing, enhance detail (extrapolation of data from the source) color and the three dimensional aspect or "pop", then calibration is definately for me. I assume that calibration will affect/mprove all adjustable AV modes. Can AV mode layman adjustments, such as increasing/decreasing contrast, brightness, etc be made post-calibration? I currently use Standard mode (adjusted of course) as my dynamic mode substitute on the KRP-500M when viewing sources that benefit fron that look (IMO) as the factory adjusted dynamic mode on the KRP lacks punch and has somewhat higher black levels (I prefer the 5010FDs version of the dynamic mode) compared to other (adjustable) KRP modes. I primarily use the Movie and Game mode so I believe I might be able to appreciate the benefits of calibration. Might any of you fortunate devils care to PM the particulars of procuring D-Nice's services? Does he work in NY?
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post #1596 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 10:27 AM
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I was under the impression that professional calibration was a means of adjusting picture quality parameters unavailable to the layman or casual tinkerer.

Not really. Calibration is intended to ensure that your TV and source equipment adhere to D65/Rec 709 as closely as possible. Sometimes that requires accessing "hidden" picture parameters and sometimes it doesn't.

On the 500M it can be accomplished in Pure mode without having to access anything else. It can also be accomplished in the ISFccc modes with the installation of the patch, which anyone comfortable with a computer can install and use themselves.

There's no real standard for dimension or "pop", so there's no guarantee that a calibration will satisfy you in those areas, but it might.

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Might any of you fortunate devils care to PM the particulars of procuring D-Nice's services?

There's nothing mysterious about it. Just send him a PM.
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post #1597 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

Not really. Calibration is intended to ensure that your TV and source equipment adhere to D65/Rec 709 as closely as possible. Sometimes that requires accessing "hidden" picture parameters and sometimes it doesn't.

On the 500M it can be accomplished in Pure mode without having to access anything else. It can also be accomplished in the ISFccc modes with the installation of the patch, which anyone comfortable with a computer can install and use themselves.

D65/Rec 709 refers to what exactly? I assumed it related it gradations of variables between black and white to which color is eventually overlayed. If contrast, detail, sharpness and black levels are unaffected by calibration then perhaps it would not benefit me.
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post #1598 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 10:52 AM
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post #1599 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 10:53 AM
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Hey guys,

Just wondering how much should I be looking to spend on a KRP-500m stand? Any thoughts? I know about the KRP-TS02 but that's 300 bones on pioneer site. I don't see this stand on ebay either =/
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post #1600 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 10:59 AM
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Hey guys,

Just wondering how much should I be looking to spend on a KRP-500m stand? Any thoughts? I know about the KRP-TS02 but that's 300 bones on pioneer site. I don't see this stand on ebay either =/

In case you missed those posts, there are authorized Pioneer retailers who include a stand with purchase of the monitor.

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post #1601 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 11:04 AM
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There's nothing mysterious about it. Just send him a PM.

^^^ what he said
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post #1602 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 11:04 AM
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Does he work in NY?

Yes
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post #1603 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jamese777 View Post

In case you missed those posts, there are authorized Pioneer retailers who include a stand with purchase of the monitor.

James, thanks for the heads-up. I'm buying my 500m from Monitor Outlet and still waiting for them to replenish their inventory. Of course they aren't gonna include the stand because they ran out =/ Now I have to seek alternative methods. I read the first page FAQ but I'm now looking for a "right" price for a 500m stand. I saw a Bing merchant, Central Digital, selling the KRP-TS02 for $131 after bing cashback....not sure if i'm going to do that cuz that seems too good to be true =P
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post #1604 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by supershick View Post

James, thanks for the heads-up. I'm buying my 500m from Monitor Outlet and still waiting for them to replenish their inventory. Of course they aren't gonna include the stand because they ran out =/ Now I have to seek alternative methods. I read the first page FAQ but I'm now looking for a "right" price for a 500m stand. I saw a Bing merchant, Central Digital, selling the KRP-TS02 for $131 after bing cashback....not sure if i'm going to do that cuz that seems too good to be true =P

Comes up as $200 at the U.S site for me.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU....KRP-TS02.Kuro
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post #1605 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 11:28 AM
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I assumed it related it gradations of variables between black and white to which color is eventually overlayed. If contrast, detail, sharpness and black levels are unaffected by calibration then perhaps it would not benefit me.

As far as black levels are concerned, a calibration will optimize blacks ensuring that you're getting the blackest black possible without crushing detail. A calibration can certainly bring out more detail by doing so, as well as by optimizing gamma, color saturation, etc. As far as the brightness of white, that's largely a matter of preference and your display's capabilities. There's not really a standard for light output beyond your wanting to keep peak white below the point of clipping, which can obscure detail in bright white areas of the picture. Whether all of that will provide the level of detail, brightness and "pop" that you're looking for is something you'd have to decide yourself.

Some people prefer a highly vibrant picture with highly saturated colors, ultra-bright whites with clipping to go with it, and a blue greyscale which can make for a punchier picture. Those things will also move your display away from the reference standard and they're not what a calibration is all about. I personaly do not like Dynamic, Standard, etc at all.
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post #1606 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 11:36 AM
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Comes up as $200 at the U.S site for me.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU....KRP-TS02.Kuro

Haha, ok, i remembered wrong =P Sorry. 200 bucks. I'm pretty sure people are getting stands that look and do the same thing for less right?
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post #1607 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 11:41 AM
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Haha, ok, i remembered wrong =P Sorry. 200 bucks. I'm pretty sure people are getting stands that look and do the same thing for less right?

There's another stand that I know of that works with the 500m. the PDK-TS23 but I don't know what it retails for, probably about the same. I also think the stands are becoming harder to come by so I'm not sure of what luck you'll have. If you buy from Monitor Outlet at it's discounted price and buy the stand direct from Pioneer you still come out with with a great price imo.
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post #1608 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 11:47 AM
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Thanks for info. I will read and get back to you...
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post #1609 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 12:21 PM
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You can easily find the TS-23 stands on ebay and 5150Joker has one for sell. He used the 1015 stand that tilts and swivels and is happy with it.

D-Nice,

Do you ever come to the San Diego region on tour?
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post #1610 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 12:23 PM
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d-nice,

do you ever come to the san diego region on tour?

2010
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post #1611 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 01:09 PM
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D-Nice, PM sent
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post #1612 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 01:51 PM
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So D-Nice came by to calibrate the 500M on Sunday and I wanted to get a few days of living with the new settings under my belt before sharing my thoughts.

Pre-calibration, I followed D-Nice's 150 hour break-in procedure. I was curious as to how close that would get me to perfect results as I didn't follow it exactly on the 111FD that I was using previously.

After finally completing the break-in and entering D's settings for Pure, ISF-Night and ISF-Day, I felt that they each looked good (okay, excellent) but there was still a noticeable, albiet slight room for improvement in the areas of color and greyscale.

As with the 111FD, I felt that the ISF modes added more punch versus the more subdued look of Pure, but with that punch came a bit of an overblown, digital look. Such qualities were fine for certain circumstances, but it kept me from taking Pure and its smoother, more natural look off of the table completely. I had always assumed that what I was seeing was simply the nature of the ISF modes. Post-calibration I expected little more than to arrive at moderate improvements in color/greyscale and frankly I'd have been happy with that.

Much to my very pleasant surprise, this was not the case. It's clear to me now that along with nailing the greyscale and color points, arriving at the correct gamma values is absolutely essential when adjusting the ISF modes. The difference in being close and being essentially dead-on in this area is absolutely huge. The digital, contrasty look of ISF Day in particular is completely gone now, and has been replaced by the most naturally deep, rich and dimensional picture that I have ever seen on a television. Pure is now dead and buried, with ISF-Night and Day not only looking every bit as smooth and as natural now, but with an extra layer of depth and realism that Pure just can't match. Add in the additional peak brightness of ISF Day when you want it and it's a complete win for the ISF modes.

Since purchasing the 111FD and now the 500M, I've always used the IMAX scenes found on the Dark Knight Blu-Ray as demo and test material. I've viewed them enough times by now that I should probably feel embarassed that I don't have better things to do. These scenes have always looked spectacular, but I have never seen them look like how they do now, and the improvement isn't marginal. I've never been one to declare that watching TV - any TV - is just like "looking through a window into the world" as I've heard claimed by many other people while watching their HDTV, and I generally dismiss such statements as overexcitement and hyperbole. I can almost always pick out a TV from real life. There's an electronic component to watching a television that prevents even the best picture from truly earning the "window to the world" descriptor to my eyes.

However, when presented with a truly pristine source, I now find myself reevaluating my opinion of that subject. There have been a few breathless moments where I literally felt as if I was watching something unfold live in my livingroom. It's truly a site to behold.

So for those of you who will calibrate your ISF modes, whether by yourself or via a pro, I cannot stress enough how important the 9 point gamma controls are. They're not there simply to make the numbers on a calibration chart look pretty. The visual impact that they have is tremendous, and when properly adjusted, the results are absolutely outstanding. At first it felt as if I had upgraded to a different TV. Now, having let my initial excitement wear down to a more reasonable level, I still feel the same.

Thanks to D-Nice for a job well done, and I can't imagine anyone improving on what he accomplished. I've attached my ISF Night/Day calibration reports, though there's nothing out of the ordinary to be found within if you've been keeping up on the others.

 

Pioneer KRP-500M Forum Post Calibration Report (ISF-Night).pdf 196.728515625k . file

 

Pioneer KRP-500M Forum Post Calibration Report (ISF-Day).pdf 196.6044921875k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Pioneer KRP-500M Forum Post Calibration Report (ISF-Day).pdf (196.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: pdf Pioneer KRP-500M Forum Post Calibration Report (ISF-Night).pdf (196.7 KB, 10 views)
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post #1613 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

So D-Nice came by to calibrate the 500M on Sunday and I wanted to get a few days of living with the new settings under my belt before sharing my thoughts.

Thanks for your calibration report. I've included it in the flat panel (Post#2) list that's linked at the bottom of my post.
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post #1614 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 05:01 PM
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D-Nice, I'm as ignorant as they come with regards to this issue but I do have a concern. If the gist of calibration is to preserve (as faithfully as possible) the fidelity of the communicable information from a given source then calibration might not be for me. Is it erroneous for me to interpret cinema as purely entertainment, as opposed to "mass communication" as GeorgeAB effectively coined? If so then my question is what exactly is being communicated by cinema? Information? Philosophy? Some faux-moralistic Aesop fable ideology where the protagonist is rewarded for being the "good guy" (after evil is punished) by continuing into that imaginary beyond past the rolling credits? What exactly is the director communicating to his audience that is so inexorably hinged on adroit visual interpolation? Aside from a painfully small handful of offerings, there is nothing in modern cinema that can be reasonably construed as "artistic" to warrant such adherence to fidelity.

If by communication, GeorgeAB is exclusively refering to the images of the film source being faithfully reproduced, then I guess I can understand that. However, is it entirely wrong to want to add a dash of seasoning to the mix in accordance with one's own leanings? ....Not if the intent of the communicable data is to entertain.

What cinema offers to some (ok, me) is escapism, pure and simple; a momentary respite from the often monotonous vicissitudes of life, where imagination and medium interface and the viewer vicariously embodies an on-screen avatar, resolving life altering dilemnas within a two hour time frame. Is it wrong to then also include seasoning with regards to the visual aspect of the medium in the fantasy? Is it wrong to want to incorporate a hyperstylized representation (via vibrant color saturation, razor-keen edge delineation,etc) of the communicable data for the purpose of enhancing its entertainment value? What good is entertainment if the viewer isn't being entertained? If world famous Chef Wolfgang Puck whips up a rack of lamb, is it considered sacrilege of the highest order to sprinkle a dash of salt on it, if one felt it would enhance the dining experience?

I want every strand of hair to leap off the screen in bold relief, every variant of hue and every texture to vie with ruthless intensity for the scrutinizing gaze of my admittedly jaundiced eye, whether it faithfully reflects the source or not. GeorgeAB said it best,.."some brains are just wired differently".

I appreciate and respect the esteemed patrons of this board (D-Nice, Elite-Home, GeorgeAB and everyone else here for that matter) for their candor and know-how, but I realize that what I seek cannot be found here. The KRP-500M may be THE reference panel (to end all reference panels) if one is seeking the ultimate in image accuracy but faulty programming has made it impossible for me to appreciate it on its own merits. I'm in love with the 5010FD for all the wrong reasons, but in love nonetheless. The 5010FD delivers for me that which I seek, albeit however inaccurately, which in itself is an indictment; curse my eyes, it justs looks better to me. I'm Cipher seeking reinsertion into the Matrix, choosing simulation over that which is being simulated. I apologize for derailing the thread. I won't bother you guys anymore with my anti-KRP rhetoric (yeah, I know, good riddance). Anyone in the NY area looking to purchase a (stored away in plastic) 4 month old KRP-500M in absolutely perfect condition for dirt cheap, IM me..
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post #1615 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 05:06 PM
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Hi,

I want to buy the 500M. Can someone tell me how good the SD quality is on this plasma and also what is the best distance to watch. I live in a basement and dont know if the TV is too big for my room?
Which Soundbar you guys could recommend for this TV.

Thanks
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post #1616 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

So D-Nice came by to calibrate the 500M on Sunday and I wanted to get a few days of living with the new settings under my belt before sharing my thoughts.

Pre-calibration, I followed D-Nice's 150 hour break-in procedure. I was curious as to how close that would get me to perfect results as I didn't follow it exactly on the 111FD that I was using previously.

After finally completing the break-in and entering D's settings for Pure, ISF-Night and ISF-Day, I felt that they each looked good (okay, excellent) but there was still a noticeable, albiet slight room for improvement in the areas of color and greyscale.

As with the 111FD, I felt that the ISF modes added more punch versus the more subdued look of Pure, but with that punch came a bit of an overblown, digital look. Such qualities were fine for certain circumstances, but it kept me from taking Pure and its smoother, more natural look off of the table completely. I had always assumed that what I was seeing was simply the nature of the ISF modes. Post-calibration I expected little more than to arrive at moderate improvements in color/greyscale and frankly I'd have been happy with that.

Much to my very pleasant surprise, this was not the case. It's clear to me now that along with nailing the greyscale and color points, arriving at the correct gamma values is absolutely essential when adjusting the ISF modes. The difference in being close and being essentially dead-on in this area is absolutely huge. The digital, contrasty look of ISF Day in particular is completely gone now, and has been replaced by the most naturally deep, rich and dimensional picture that I have ever seen on a television. Pure is now dead and buried, with ISF-Night and Day not only looking every bit as smooth and as natural now, but with an extra layer of depth and realism that Pure just can't match. Add in the additional peak brightness of ISF Day when you want it and it's a complete win for the ISF modes.

Since purchasing the 111FD and now the 500M, I've always used the IMAX scenes found on the Dark Knight Blu-Ray as demo and test material. I've viewed them enough times by now that I should probably feel embarassed that I don't have better things to do. These scenes have always looked spectacular, but I have never seen them look like how they do now, and the improvement isn't marginal. I've never been one to declare that watching TV - any TV - is just like "looking through a window into the world" as I've heard claimed by many other people while watching their HDTV, and I generally dismiss such statements as overexcitement and hyperbole. I can almost always pick out a TV from real life. There's an electronic component to watching a television that prevents even the best picture from truly earning the "window to the world" descriptor to my eyes.

However, when presented with a truly pristine source, I now find myself reevaluating my opinion of that subject. There have been a few breathless moments where I literally felt as if I was watching something unfold live in my livingroom. It's truly a site to behold.

So for those of you who will calibrate your ISF modes, whether by yourself or via a pro, I cannot stress enough how important the 9 point gamma controls are. They're not there simply to make the numbers on a calibration chart look pretty. The visual impact that they have is tremendous, and when properly adjusted, the results are absolutely outstanding. At first it felt as if I had upgraded to a different TV. Now, having let my initial excitement wear down to a more reasonable level, I still feel the same.

Thanks to D-Nice for a job well done, and I can't imagine anyone improving on what he accomplished. I've attached my ISF Night/Day calibration reports, though there's nothing out of the ordinary to be found within if you've been keeping up on the others.

Thanks, Tbird,
So can you tell the peanut gallery your thoughts on 111 vs. 500M? We already know the black levels are a bit better on the M, but how do you feel comparing the ISF modes on each?

I know, it's like putting perfection against perfection.
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post #1617 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 05:38 PM
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Pleeeeeease fix this area with real paragraphs!!!

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post #1618 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 05:41 PM
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2010

How about Nor-Cal?

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post #1619 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 06:04 PM
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how do you feel comparing the ISF modes on each?

They seem to work the same. Differences in blacks aside, I don't doubt that the 111FD could look just as good with the proper adjustments.
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post #1620 of 7028 Old 09-03-2009, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DARQMAGE View Post

D-Nice, I'm as ignorant as they come with regards to this issue but I do have a concern. If the gist of calibration is to preserve (as faithfully as possible) the fidelity of the communicable information from a given source then calibration might not be for me. Is it erroneous for me to interpret cinema as purely entertainment, as opposed to "mass communication" as GeorgeAB effectively coined? If so then my question is what exactly is being communicated by cinema? Information? Philosophy? Some faux-moralistic Aesop fable ideology where the protagonist is rewarded for being the "good guy" (after evil is punished) by continuing into that imaginary beyond past the rolling credits? What exactly is the director communicating to his audience that is so inexorably hinged on adroit visual interpolation? Aside from a painfully small handful of offerings, there is nothing in modern cinema that can be reasonably construed as "artistic" to warrant such adherence to fidelity. If by communication, GeorgeAB is exclusively refering to the images of the film source being faithfully reproduced, then I guess I can understand that. However, is it entirely wrong to want to add a dash of seasoning to the mix in accordance with one's own leanings? Not if the intent of the communicable data is to entertain. What cinema offers to some (ok, me) is escapism, pure and simple; a momentary respite from the often monotonous vicissitudes of life, where imagination and medium interface and the viewer vicariously embodies an on-screen avatar, resolving life altering dilemnas within a two hour time frame. Is it wrong to then also include seasoning with regards to the visual aspect of the medium in the fantasy? Is it wrong to want to incorporate a hyperstylized representation (via vibrant color saturation, razor-keen edge delineation,etc) of the communicable data for the purpose of enhancing its entertainment value? What good is entertainment if the viewer isn't being entertained? If world famous Chef Wolfgang Puck whips me up a rack of lamb, is it considered sacrilege of the highest order to sprinkle a dash of salt on it, if one felt it would enhance the dining experience? I want every strand of hair to leap off the screen in bold relief, every variant of hue and every texture to vie with ruthless intensity for the scrutinizing gaze of my admittedly jaundiced eye, whether it faithfully reflects the source or not. GeorgeAB said it best,.."some brains are just wired differently". I appreciate and respect the esteemed patrons of this board (D-Nice, Elite-Home, GeorgeAB and everyone else here for that matter) for their candor and know-how, but I realize that what I seek cannot be found here. The KRP-500M may be THE reference panel (to end all reference panels) if one is seeking the ultimate in image accuracy but faulty programming has made it impossible for me to appreciate it on its own merits. I'm in love with the 5010FD for all the wrong reasons, but in love nonetheless. The 5010FD delivers for me that which I seek, albeit however inaccurately, which in itself is an indictment; curse my eyes, it justs looks better to me. I'm Cipher seeking reinsertion into the Matrix, choosing simulation over that which is being simulated. I apologize for derailing the thread. I won't bother you guys anymore with my anti-KRP rhetoric (yeah, I know, good riddance). Anyone in the NY area looking to purchase a (stored away in plastic) 4 month old KRP-500M in absolutely perfect condition for dirt cheap, IM me..

DM -

I'm mainly an audio guy, but you are like my video equivilent. There is no need to follow the status quo and do what is supposed to be "right". If you like hyper-realistic colors and razor-sharp images, go for it. If it looks good to then it is good.

With that said, there is some middle ground here that you may not have considered. Get your TV calibrated, then season to taste. Having a calibrated gray scale and accurate color points, gives you a blank canvas / solid foundation to work with. Then you can boost the overall color saturation, blast the contrast level, and push the sharpness up to +15 to your heart's content. By not doing this, you may be limited to a canvas that always has a green hue to it, or a canvas that shifts in color depending on the signal.

Just something to think about.
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