The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 800 Old 09-17-2012, 08:27 PM
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Just wanted to say that after a lot of research I decided to say "screw the numbers" and bought the 42UT50.

Honestly...I'm happy with the purchase. Not only the picture quality is great, everything I could do on my old Pana LCD (which supposedly has 1 frame of lag) I can do on this TV, no adjustment needed. I play fighting games, which are heavily affected by lag, and I can pull off my combos just fine, UMvC3, Tekken 6, KOF XIII, whatever.

Bottomline: yes I recommend this TV for gaming. But if you can test it beforehand, please do so. JUST DON'T PLAY WITH IFC TURNED ON or you're gonna be in lag hell (game mode disables IFC by default anyway).

UNFORTUNATELY...plasma TVs simply were not made for 30 fps games. I was playing Final Fantasy XIII and had to switch to non-game mode and put IFC on maximum because I find the ghosting in 30 fps games to be unbearable. When you pan the camera around EVERYTHING gets a double image, it's just awful, so consider yourself warned. Games like FF XIII are not affected by input lag so I could play it just fine with IFC turned on.

And finally...I read somewhere that the same TV models may have different input lag depending on the region. So it's possible that the american model has more lag than the european model. I'm in Brazil, and our model, based on the menu options, is the european one.

Good luck to you guys.
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post #452 of 800 Old 09-18-2012, 05:39 AM
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You get the same amount of frame doubleing on any LCD or LED when playing a 30fps video game, you just don't notice
it because the terrible motion smearing/resolution hides it! lol XP
And no wonder, you have the uero model wich does 16ms of lag and doesn't have
a soft image when playing 720p or 480p content. The UK model seems like the perfect plasma to game on.
At times like, i wish i lived in Australia. XP Instead i'm settling for last years S30.
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post #453 of 800 Old 10-10-2012, 05:17 AM
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this thread has slowed down of late, theres another thread of similar nature -

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428231/gaming-plasma-fighting-games-mvc2-umvc3-sf4

The thing people should see is this video comparison of input lag between an old standard def tv, st50 & E6500, check out the thread for more info...



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post #454 of 800 Old 10-11-2012, 06:09 PM
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So i just bough last week A tC-50UT50 . This tv is awesome for the quality of images from hd! I love watching anything on this set looks so natural and colors are beautifull. I had a BRavia KDL EX 500 and I just realized that that tv was nothing compared to this panasonic. Only problem i have is that i chose this tv for gaming and i feel there is some imput lag even on game mode. I tried to use a component cable and set my ps3 to s video , or s cart to compare. I noticed it was better and surprisingly the graphics at 480i were the same as with my hdmi at 1080p!!! I don't understand why however. I was wondering if there is any solution to lower the lag . My old Bravia KDL ex500 was even laggier so I'm happy i upgraded there. I wanted however to find a perfect tv for gaming and the Samsung E550 at pc imput seems to fit that need. I have the american Panasonic model and the lag might be around 40ms. In Fifa for exemple turning is noticably slower than on S video 480p. I can compete however in fighers games and the colors are really impressive so I don't know if I should sacrifice this and go with Samsung ...

If there is a solution for this please explain, also please explain to me why are the graphics the same from 1080 p hdmi to 480 i S video or standard NtSC?
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post #455 of 800 Old 10-11-2012, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnicron View Post

this thread has slowed down of late, theres another thread of similar nature -
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428231/gaming-plasma-fighting-games-mvc2-umvc3-sf4
The thing people should see is this video comparison of input lag between an old standard def tv, st50 & E6500, check out the thread for more info...

Definitely a great effort. Filming at 30fps, each frame in the video actually represents 32ms. Based on the arm extension (12 seconds) it looks like the CRT is possibly 1 frame ahead, which could put the ST50 and E6500 at either 16ms or 32ms slower than the CRT (no way to know which as the camera is capturing both simultaneously). I have seen some people claim Sony's late model HD CRT's (what he tested against) did have a little lag of their own (my old XBR910 definitely had some image processing, notably "Digital Reality Creation" or DRC), but I have no idea of the accuracy or severity of such claims. Could just be baseless assumptions people made.
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post #456 of 800 Old 10-12-2012, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Definitely a great effort. Filming at 30fps, each frame in the video actually represents 32ms. Based on the arm extension (12 seconds) it looks like the CRT is possibly 1 frame ahead, which could put the ST50 and E6500 at either 16ms or 32ms slower than the CRT (no way to know which as the camera is capturing both simultaneously). I have seen some people claim Sony's late model HD CRT's (what he tested against) did have a little lag of their own (my old XBR910 definitely had some image processing, notably "Digital Reality Creation" or DRC), but I have no idea of the accuracy or severity of such claims. Could just be baseless assumptions people made.

I believe the crt used in the video is a standard def tv, in cottonballs post he says hes replacing his HD sony at home, whereas the sd tv is "For a baseline comparison I shot video of an old standard def TV I had lying around the house hooked up with RCA cables"

However I do think it is likely that there are HD crt tvs that introduce lag. I have tested sd and hd crts for input lag, albeit with rock band 3's video lag test. The hd tvs performed well compared to the sd tvs using component signals, but using composite/yellow rca plug on the HD models,the lag really started to climb. You can check out my testing here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buFcMXG6208&feature=channel&list=UL
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post #457 of 800 Old 10-12-2012, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnicron View Post

I believe the crt used in the video is a standard def tv, in cottonballs post he says hes replacing his HD sony at home, whereas the sd tv is "For a baseline comparison I shot video of an old standard def TV I had lying around the house hooked up with RCA cables"
However I do think it is likely that there are HD crt tvs that introduce lag. I have tested sd and hd crts for input lag, albeit with rock band 3's video lag test. The hd tvs performed well compared to the sd tvs using component signals, but using composite/yellow rca plug on the HD models,the lag really started to climb. You can check out my testing here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buFcMXG6208&feature=channel&list=UL

Thanks Omni, how in the world did I miss that? It's even labeled as such in the video. That's what I get for skimming posts, just saw the mention of the 32" he was looking to replace and assumed that's what he would have used.
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post #458 of 800 Old 10-12-2012, 11:12 PM
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No worries, very easy to do
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post #459 of 800 Old 10-14-2012, 02:20 PM
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Bah, I'm so annoyed right now. The 50" S30 i planned on getting online isn't happening. The seller made a mistake and does NOT ship to Canada. sigh* So now I'm going
to see if BestBuy, FutureShop or Visions(Can't stand that place.lol)have any of last years stock, specificly the 50" S30. There's no way in hell I'm settling for this years U50 or UT50. If my X5
is any indication which it should be, as it does the least amount of processing for this years Panny plasma lineup than i'll be dissapointed. 2 frames/32ms doesn't cut it...Especially for motion controls.
I'd rather just stick with my Tube SDTV until i find an S30 and that's that.

I fear that the 2013 panasonic plasmas will be no better in terms of lag than this years models. Companies
just don't seem to care, all they care about is producing the best picture possible.
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post #460 of 800 Old 10-15-2012, 02:50 AM
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Seeing as this forum has been helpful in my decision to get the Panasonic TX-P42UT50B (which has just arrived) I will update you guys later on the input lag scenario once I have played around with it. I have the UK version though so it may vary to American models
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post #461 of 800 Old 10-15-2012, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kony PS3 View Post

Seeing as this forum has been helpful in my decision to get the Panasonic TX-P42UT50B (which has just arrived) I will update you guys later on the input lag scenario once I have played around with it. I have the UK version though so it may vary to American models

The UK version isn't plagued with the soft effect when playing 480p or 720p content and is supposed to to 1 frame/16ms. Lucky you. biggrin.gif
The NA panel is pretty bogus.
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post #462 of 800 Old 10-17-2012, 03:06 AM
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Heres a google translation of Dutch webpage that has reviewed the st50 recently, remembering that the model is most likely not the US one.

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://tweakers.net/reviews/2735/5/viera-st50-voor-een-dubbeltje-op-de-eerste-rij-beeldeigenschappen.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dst50%2Binput%2Blag%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbo%3D1%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D598%26tbs%3Dqdr:w%26prmd%3Dimvnsfd&sa=X&ei=dXJ-UISxFs2RiQextoCoAg&ved=0CFwQ7gEwBA

These guys are using SMTT 2.0 software to test lag.

Quote "It comes with the ST50 to about 37ms. This is higher than we expected, even though it is not much wrong with 35ms of the majority of TVs. The TV is fast enough for games, but there are TVs that show a lower input lag."
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post #463 of 800 Old 10-19-2012, 07:11 AM
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I'M playing Playstation Allstars and other fighters like Soul Calibur and really can't see any lag i plugged my ps3 in my old CRt tv and the difference was so minimal that it's not even worth a thread..or a concern...
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post #464 of 800 Old 11-13-2012, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnicron View Post

this thread has slowed down of late, theres another thread of similar nature -
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1428231/gaming-plasma-fighting-games-mvc2-umvc3-sf4

I have been searching high and low for months and another thread with 2012 models tested but that is the only one I can find. I am just desperate to find out which Panny Plasma is going to have the lowest input lag (with no HDMI because my Xbox doesn't even have it so component only)
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post #465 of 800 Old 11-19-2012, 01:56 AM
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Finally! My tedious never ending search is over. I've finally found a 60" S30(Actually it's an S34, whatever same thing i'm assuming)
I'll be picking it up in a couple of days!

The NA S30 and ST30 are regarded as the best Panny plasmas to game on since they deliver 1-2 frames of input lag and it's been
compared to the LG LD450(which i previously owned) which is known to only produce 1 frame/16ms of lag. And i have a giant feeling 'to get' that one
frame on the S30/S34 is to use component cables instead of HDMI which generally always produces more lag.

Pretty stoked! I expected to get a 50", but a 60"? This is going to be amazing for the Wii U & Wii, AND my mad obsession for 80's/70's
horror movies. XD And no glare filtre either, so that means a brighter, more colorful and crisper/clearer picture.
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post #466 of 800 Old 11-19-2012, 02:36 AM
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Hi all,I'm in the same boat.looking to buy a new tv just for gaming!! I live in the uk. I'm going from a 50st30b panny,it's amazing for gaming hdtvtest gave it 16ms lag,not sure if thats true as the new Leo bodnar test mite show to be more like 31ms now??? Not sure??? But it was good for me and I only play cod games.whats the st50 like for gaming e.g input lag???? Or the 60s30 input lag??? Being in the uk I'm hoping very low 1/2 frames lag!!!
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post #467 of 800 Old 11-19-2012, 02:37 AM
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Hi all,I'm in the same boat.looking to buy a new tv just for gaming!! I live in the uk. I'm going from a 50st30b panny,it's amazing for gaming hdtvtest gave it 16ms lag,not sure if thats true as the new Leo bodnar test mite show to be more like 31ms now??? Not sure??? But it was good for me and I only play cod games.whats the st50 like for gaming e.g input lag???? Or the 60s30 input lag??? Being in the uk I'm hoping very low 1/2 frames lag!!!
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post #468 of 800 Old 11-21-2012, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piterli View Post

Been testing a few games on my new Panny 65ST30, and can easily say that you won't even need Game Mode. Works great, just don't turn on the Motion Smoother or it will add noticeable input lag, but nowhere near as bad as all the Samsung LCDs I owned these past few years.drink

Sadly this seems to be the case. The new tool is being used to go back and test all of last year's models and the ST30 is almost half as fast as the ST50 and it almost doesn't matter what mode it is in!!! That is madness. The new TVs are getting worse!!

Now what? Buy an ST30 at the same price as an ST50 just to get the right input lag? My cousin owns one an swears by it.
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post #469 of 800 Old 11-22-2012, 09:02 AM
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How fast is the st30 now with the new test?? I'd like a list of all last years tvs with new input lag results on would be good
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post #470 of 800 Old 11-23-2012, 01:34 AM
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i tested the 51" samsung e6500 (PN51E6500) at frys yesterday. I can confirm the "pc hdmi" trick does reduce lag compared to other modes (including game!). I measured pc mode at 16ms. I recorded video at 60fps using 2 tests with a laptop, then i did the street fighter 4 test as well. EVERY mode other than pc seems to increase input lag- somewhere around 3-5x as much in some cases. I had a ton of video to post here to prove this but my iphone broke when i got home and i have no access to the footage.

If you're in the market for a 16ms display and you dont want to risk buying a tv sight unseen online this series is worth considering.



edit: I corrected the model
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post #471 of 800 Old 11-23-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectrexcwk View Post

i tested the 51" panasonic e6500 at frys yesterday. I can confirm the "pc hdmi" trick does reduce lag compared to other modes (including game!). I measured pc mode at 16ms. I recorded video at 60fps using 2 tests with a laptop, then i did the street fighter 4 test as well. EVERY mode other than pc seems to increase input lag- somewhere around 3-5x as much in some cases. I had a ton of video to post here to prove this but my iphone broke when i got home and i have no access to the footage.
If you're in the market for a 16ms display and you dont want to risk buying a tv sight unseen online this series is worth considering.

That was either a Samsung or you got confused by the shelf tags at Frys. Panasonic doesn't make a 51' set, nor is "E6500" a Panny model number. If the set you were testing said "Panasonic" on the bezel it wasn't a "51" ES6500."

Steve S.
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post #472 of 800 Old 11-23-2012, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys I've tested out a 50U54 (Costco's U50 variant minus some features--CATS, Motion Smoother, Game). There is no "Game Mode", only Vivid, Cinema, Standard, and Custom. I did label HDMI 1 (non-ARC input) "Game" and obviously turned off all the available features, not sure if this makes a difference. Cloned flashed timers primarily show 20ms with the usual odd 10ms and 30ms result scattered about. It also seems to match or slightly best the lag of the Wii U pad, though I'm unsure of the accuracy of testing through its web browsers. Also included an SMTT test, but I have no idea how to interpret the results. Pics below and I'll add it to the OP. As far as performance goes, black level is noticably deeper than my 0.005fL GT30 (I'd estimate 0.003 - 0.004fl range). Haven't measured WB, color, or gamma performance yet, but I'll be sure to post it when I do.

K6H4Yl.jpg

VhR5Xl.jpg

QnQ3L.jpg
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post #473 of 800 Old 11-23-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

That was either a Samsung or you got confused by the shelf tags at Frys. Panasonic doesn't make a 51' set, nor is "E6500" a Panny model number. If the set you were testing said "Panasonic" on the bezel it wasn't a "51" ES6500."

i meant samsung - specifically the PN51E6500. i'll edit the post to avoid confusion
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post #474 of 800 Old 11-24-2012, 12:42 AM
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Never mind, found the thread.
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post #475 of 800 Old 11-26-2012, 01:20 PM
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What is the verdict on the Samsung Plasma E7000? I own this TV and can set it to PC mode. Is it the same input lag as the E6500?
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post #476 of 800 Old 11-27-2012, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerchiarax View Post

What is the verdict on the Samsung Plasma E7000? I own this TV and can set it to PC mode. Is it the same input lag as the E6500?

bump with a link attached...

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ps64e8000-201210292316.htm?page=Performance

This article talks about console gaming with PC mode on E8000 and it gets 31ms. Not sure if E7000 would be the same or less. I'm hoping it could be like the e6500 that supposedly can do 16ms.
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post #477 of 800 Old 11-27-2012, 12:26 PM
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Seems I didn't do the appropriate research. I was under the impression that a plasma essentially had no input delay.

What the hell is the point of a plasma? These things consume more power, generate more heat, are generally heavier, have lesser picture quality vs an LCD, in addition can potentially be completely ruined by burn in or temporarily inconvenienced by IR. All this in an attempt to have deeper blacks, which LCD/LED tech is virtually there. The only major plus is the price, however all things considered it doesn't seem like much of a good deal.

With regard to PQ vs LCD, a plasma (at least my GT50) looks like trash compared to my 4 yo Samsung LN52A750. Sure, if I back away everything is smoother but that does not equal quality. As in another post, if you back far enough away from a dirty car, it can look like a freshly polished and waxed beauty.

Even with deeper blacks, these dark scenes look like crap because of this snowy effect (apparently in all plasmas). It looks like channel snow behind the actual image and is distracting.

/rant
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post #478 of 800 Old 11-30-2012, 06:02 AM
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I finally got my 60" Panasonic 'S30' 2011 1080p Plasma 2 days ago! And guess what? the 1 frame/16ms IS true when using component cables. It performs identicle
to my LG LD450/LK450 in terms of input lag performance. Using HDMI raises the lag a little bit but it still performs MUCH better than any of the 2012 Panasonic plasma's from this year
even when THOSE are using component. My 2012 X5 is such a dissapointment for gaming.... I'm so glad the S30 met my expectations. It also whipes the floor with the X5 when it comes to black levels(as expected since
it has a infinite neo panel) and the auto dimming is not as has harsh. The X5 had a ridiculous amount of nasty
noise going on when watching DVD's outside of cinema mode to the point where it looked
completely artifical at times....The S30 doesn't have this problem in standard mode once you fiddle
with the settings. B-)

If anything, the X5, U50 and UT50 from this year are a bit better in the brightness and the color department. The color gamet is a bit wider and more colorful and the brightness is also
a bit noticably different.

It's too bad this years U50/UT50 have poor 480p/720p scaling which results in a soft image and most importantly the lousy input lag. Looks like I'm stuck with the S30 unless
Panny's 2013 U70 or UT70 do 1 frame of lag....which i highly doubt is going to happen.

The 60 inches is also pretty amazing, especially for movies. BUT i think i would of been a smidge more satisfyed had i went with 50" that extra 10" makes certain games appear
not quite as crisp at least when it comes to 480p material. 720p looks great and 1080p
of course looks even better.

I've also been playing around with my friends Panny' G25 from 2010 and even IT with an anti glare filtre suprisingly has a bit of a wider color gamut than my S30. The Color on the S30 is great,
but it's not quite on par as the other models i mentioned if you want those Super colorful vibrant colors. I would of went with the 50" model, but only the 60" was available on craigs list, and i got it for $850 CAD and it's in fantastic
condition. So there weren't exactly a lot of options, and i just got my Wii U so i had to take the plunge! wink.gif
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post #479 of 800 Old 11-30-2012, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrophoric View Post

Seems I didn't do the appropriate research. I was under the impression that a plasma essentially had no input delay.
What the hell is the point of a plasma? These things consume more power, generate more heat, are generally heavier, have lesser picture quality vs an LCD, in addition can potentially be completely ruined by burn in or temporarily inconvenienced by IR. All this in an attempt to have deeper blacks, which LCD/LED tech is virtually there. The only major plus is the price, however all things considered it doesn't seem like much of a good deal.
With regard to PQ vs LCD, a plasma (at least my GT50) looks like trash compared to my 4 yo Samsung LN52A750. Sure, if I back away everything is smoother but that does not equal quality. As in another post, if you back far enough away from a dirty car, it can look like a freshly polished and waxed beauty.
Even with deeper blacks, these dark scenes look like crap because of this snowy effect (apparently in all plasmas). It looks like channel snow behind the actual image and is distracting.
/rant

Where are you located and do you want to sell that piece of junk GT50 cheap?
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post #480 of 800 Old 11-30-2012, 09:07 AM
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He completely forget to mention that PLasma's also produce 'MUCH' better
motion resolution. LED and LCD's motion is just unecceptable. Blur, smearing,
the works it's the main reason why I'll never purchase an LED/LCD EVER again.
Sure you can get expensive LED's with good black levels, but they still
suffer from that dreaded blur which gives me an absolute headache
especially for gaming and destroys the look of film. not only that but there could also
be screen clouding, back light or edge bleeding.

If you can manage to snag an IPS-Alpha panel LED/LCD than ya the blur is
improved by a bit, but as is it's extremely lousy.

Plasma's typically rock much deeper blacks/contrast and far superior motion.
Those are the only 2 reasons why i favor plasma. They are after all the closest
thing to those old school CRT Tube TV's. If anything, i absolutely love
the brightness that an LCD/LED can produce, plus they don't have auto dimming,
no IR or potential burn in and produce a bit of a cleaner image.

Super OLED will put an end to all 3 of these flawed technologies. wink.gif
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