The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 800 Old 09-11-2009, 08:23 AM
Senior Member
 
cleh19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The article the Orta posted clearly showed that games have lag. Just b/c the counter in rock band is showing no lag doesnt mean they didnt already try to account for that input lag while designing the game/counter.
cleh19 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 800 Old 09-11-2009, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meigus View Post

No. What I said was that you have it timed to an "external" source, cause unless you have a device that is hyper-responsive, you can't precisely measure absolute input lag. A non-digital audio output should, in theory, be "a lot" faster than the video output. Not to mention because it modulates on a higher frequency, you can have more precise and accurate timing (almost all operating systems use a minimum 44100 hz). This would be more effective than the "guess-the-frames" mode you guys are using now.

Even if the analog was 100% analog (no menus, fixed resolution), it will still take time to get through the circuitry, which by nature could be slower than a digital screen. By nature I mean it's not designed to necessarily BE ultra fast at all, it's designed to show the picture "soon enough". This would probably be even worse if the CRT was NOT designed for computers/gaming, the same reason some people're raising a fuss over high-def tv lag!


Third, all these tests you guys run HAVE to be from the same cable, otherwise they're almost useless. Although a fast graphic card could easily display cloned images, unless it's processing and displaying them at precisely the same time, the "dominant" port will be more responsive than the "alternate" port. I won't say this always happens, but it could obviously happen if the graphic card (or software) was designed poorly.

Using the same cable, like someone suggested with the component out and a splitter, would make the tests far more trustworthy.

Oh I see what you're getting at, you're looking for something that's basically bulletproof. Great suggestion, is this something that could be done with every day devices? Output cloning is a potential question mark for sure. You can choose which display you want to make primary or secondary, but I didn't record any difference. I don't pretend to know how much delay it may or may not be adding. The idea of this is actually just to show the differences b/t displays. It doesn't really matter what absolute delay is, because there's nothing an end users can do about it. This methodology is really fine for exposing which displays are good and which displays are bad.
Orta is offline  
post #33 of 800 Old 09-15-2009, 07:32 AM
Senior Member
 
NOAMattD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Oh I see what you're getting at, you're looking for something that's basically bulletproof.

Aren't we all? I'm still not following what this amazing new test is supposed to be, Meigus - do explain what you're talking about and how we're supposed to go about performing it.
NOAMattD is offline  
post #34 of 800 Old 09-15-2009, 08:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chrisherbert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 5,863
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 15
One relatively easy way to do this would be to get ahold of an old CRT monitor that accepts a sync on green signal. That way you can just split the Y (green cable) portion of a component signal and run it to both the plasma and the CRT. The CRT will display a visible image, albeit bright green.
chrisherbert is offline  
post #35 of 800 Old 09-15-2009, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rahzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yugami View Post

What are you talking about? Games do not have input lag. I've been playing Rock band for a couple years on CRT TVs with the audio directly connected to speakers and I can guarantee you there is no lag whatsoever.

Umm, this is what I'm talking about.
Not to mention wireless game controllers most likely have slight lag as well.
rahzel is offline  
post #36 of 800 Old 10-06-2009, 06:42 AM
Senior Member
 
NOAMattD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
cleh19 did some tests on the Samsung 50B650:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post17298562

quick results -

80-100ms in non-game modes

30-50ms in game mode
NOAMattD is offline  
post #37 of 800 Old 10-06-2009, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

cleh19 did some tests on the Samsung 50B650:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post17298562

quick results -

80-100ms in non-game modes

30-50ms in game mode

Thanks Noa and cleh, I updated the OP's
Orta is offline  
post #38 of 800 Old 10-25-2009, 06:35 AM
Member
 
Roderick5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can we just start a list of plasma's that don't have input lag? thanks.
Roderick5 is offline  
post #39 of 800 Old 10-25-2009, 05:48 PM
Member
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 91
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 18
You guys need this:
http://www.syncheck.com/

Anything over 30ms or 1 frame is unacceptable.
dr.sound is offline  
post #40 of 800 Old 11-02-2009, 10:03 AM
Senior Member
 
NOAMattD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick5 View Post

Can we just start a list of plasma's that don't have input lag? thanks.

Fraid not buddy. ALL flat panels have some degree of input lag, the only question is how much, which is what this thread's all about.
NOAMattD is offline  
post #41 of 800 Old 11-03-2009, 11:03 PM
Member
 
lukeman3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

Fraid not buddy. ALL flat panels have some degree of input lag, the only question is how much, which is what this thread's all about.

So with that said, who holds first place for least amount of input lag in a plasma right now, and how much is it? The G10?
lukeman3000 is offline  
post #42 of 800 Old 11-14-2009, 04:03 AM
Member
 
alienzero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

Fraid not buddy. ALL flat panels have some degree of input lag, the only question is how much, which is what this thread's all about.

ALL flat panels?? look at this old Toshiba X3030 LCD test.





alienzero is offline  
post #43 of 800 Old 11-17-2009, 01:46 PM
Senior Member
 
NOAMattD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by alienzero View Post

ALL flat panels?? look at this old Toshiba X3030 LCD test.

No lag relative to the computer's LCD, which is itself a flat panel. You have to compare to a CRT to get a true picture of how much lag there is.
NOAMattD is offline  
post #44 of 800 Old 11-19-2009, 03:15 PM
Member
 
Gamer0126's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Glad I found this post!! I have been searching for a Plasma/LCD for video gaming and I do notice the input lag when playing SF2 HD Remix on a 50" Plasma, 40" LCD, and a 32" LCD all Vizios (my Father in Law is a CostCo fanatic). I got tired of trying to find a one and all listing of all the different input lag times so I decided to do a in store testing of the input lag across several different Flat Panel displays. I spoke to the Store Manager at the local TV store and he told me it would be fine if I went in during lunch when it is not busy. However before going to the store I would like to know if there are any settings I need to adjust on the TV in order to get a proper measurement. . So I just need to find out:
- if there are any special settings I need to enable/disable?
- I remember reading of a torch mode, how can I disable that?
- If there is anything I am missing please feel free to add with a post.

I will be doing these tests hopefully tomorrow around noon so if you know of anything that would help me out, and actually all of us out, please post.

Thanks in advance!
Gamer0126 is offline  
post #45 of 800 Old 11-20-2009, 06:55 AM
Senior Member
 
NOAMattD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Whatever TVs you test, just make sure you set them to "game mode" if they have one and disable any image processing stuff (digital noise reduction, etc) before running your tests.

What test are you going to do? Just so you know a "manual" calibration with Guitar Hero / Rock Band 2 and your own personal "it felt like" tests are not really going to be accepted as they're more subjective and prone to error. The stopwatch test is the best, Rock Band 2 photoeye calibration is an acceptable substitute.

"Torch" mode is a combination of "store" mode which cranks up the brightness and color and then further cranking up the brightness and color in the user controls - nothing that should affect lag, just make sure you put it in game mode before testing like I said above.

Looking forward to your results!
NOAMattD is offline  
post #46 of 800 Old 11-20-2009, 09:40 AM
Member
 
Gamer0126's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I will be doing the stop watch tests. After reading all the posts regarding the 'feel' testing people have done and the amount of crap they get afterwards I know to avoid any type of 'feel' test. I will calibrate the test with a crt and my laptop, which I have already done. Then I will go to the local store here to do the plasma/lcd tests as well as some rptvs. Here are the results for the crt calibration:







So from what I have read in previous posts the results are:
1st test: 15ms
2nd test: 0ms
3rd test: 15ms

If I average the times out it should be around ~10ms
Gamer0126 is offline  
post #47 of 800 Old 11-20-2009, 09:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Spanbauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,607
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer0126 View Post

if there are any special settings I need to enable/disable?

If a game mode is available, you should do tests with and without it. That should be the only setting that has a direct impact on input lag.

Click here for my home theater setup
Spanbauer is offline  
post #48 of 800 Old 03-17-2010, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Updated OP with mech's VT20 results.
Orta is offline  
post #49 of 800 Old 03-25-2010, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Updated OP with shaddix's LG PK550 results
Orta is offline  
post #50 of 800 Old 03-25-2010, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Used a different laptop to re-test the G10 for a baseline, and also tested the S1 for the first time. Did these back to back with the same settings. Also discovered some very important information on testing procedure, I'll be updating the OP to reflect this.

Anyways, results were very unexpected--they do not seem to be the same like I would have thought. G10 measured 10ms-20ms almost every time against this laptop--across like 20 pics. S1 measured 20-30ms across the same. My camera is crappy, so this could be something flakey with it if that's even possible. More likely it's a difference b/t the G10 and S1 in general or a difference between the size classes, G10 is 50" S1 is 65".







Orta is offline  
post #51 of 800 Old 03-25-2010, 12:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shaddix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,436
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

G10 measured 10ms-20ms almost every time against this laptop--across like 20 pics.

wow... I will be picking up a G series next year for certain
shaddix is offline  
post #52 of 800 Old 03-25-2010, 01:11 PM
Member
 
MBKCPA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i'm leaning towards the S panasonic now; any tests on the 550 samsung, or is it safe to assume it performs the same as the 650?
MBKCPA is offline  
post #53 of 800 Old 03-26-2010, 06:30 AM
Senior Member
 
NOAMattD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Orta - Did you test your laptop against a CRT first to confirm there's no inherent output lag?

Also, I've read that the clone drivers for Vista/Windows 7 are not really very good and can produce unreliable results with real-time tests like the stopwatch. If you have an XP laptop you might try again with it.

I will be running tests on my 54G25 whenever it arrives :P
NOAMattD is offline  
post #54 of 800 Old 03-26-2010, 09:01 AM
Member
 
Felix Lighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm glad this thread exists. One of the major reasons I decided to purchase a plasma was the notion that the input lag is supposed to be much less of an issue compared to LCDs. I was very interested in the LG PK750 until I started reading reports of higher than normal input lag in this years LG plasmas. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Felix Lighter is offline  
post #55 of 800 Old 03-26-2010, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Orta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,572
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

Orta - Did you test your laptop against a CRT first to confirm there's no inherent output lag?

Also, I've read that the clone drivers for Vista/Windows 7 are not really very good and can produce unreliable results with real-time tests like the stopwatch. If you have an XP laptop you might try again with it.

I will be running tests on my 54G25 whenever it arrives :P

Nice, we need some good G2X numbers. I actually intended to test my laptop against a CRT way back with the OP, but my numbers were so similar to Mr Deap's, I never bothered. Only one I have with any form of HD input (DVI) is an XBR910 from '02 or '03. It's a TV (not a monitor) and may be a late enough model that it has some degree of processing, I don't know. I've been planning on giving it a try though. I would suspect the Vista and 7 complaints you saw were rooted in Aero. It will definitely bork your results (significantly) which is why I've updated the OP with notes on things to turn off when doing your own tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBKCPA View Post

i'm leaning towards the S panasonic now; any tests on the 550 samsung, or is it safe to assume it performs the same as the 650?

I've never seen any number for the 550's, but if I were guessing, I'd say that would be a fairly safe assumption if you were talking about the A or B models. If you're talking about the C's (e.g. C550), you should probably look into numbers on other C PDP's (which no one has posted as far as I know).
Orta is offline  
post #56 of 800 Old 03-27-2010, 08:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shaddix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,436
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
this is with aero disabled, HDMI input labeled as PC, picture set to game mode, aspect ratio just scan. and any other option that would add processing time set to off.(wide gamut, dynamic contrast etc)
50PK550

weird? it varies between 40 and 90, perhaps I should use something other than web based timer? I don't understand what could cause it to do that. I will make a video!




shaddix is offline  
post #57 of 800 Old 03-27-2010, 09:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
frito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: east SF bay area, ca
Posts: 3,395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
sweet Orta, good to see you got a good input lag compilation thread going on for plasma's

I will post a link to your thread in my LCD input lag thread and you can add the Panasonic 50X1 to your test results here is the link to my test vs a CRT

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post18259558

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
frito is offline  
post #58 of 800 Old 04-13-2010, 06:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mathesar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I ran tests on my Pioneer Kuro 5080HD (2007 model) awhile back but I want to do it again to be sure my results are accurate (based on new info Ive learned on testing input lag) I was seeing around 30-35ms lag (avg.) between several shots I took with my PC hooked up via HDMI, TV was set in PC mode. (used my FW900 CRT as a baseline).

Ill post pics when I run the tests again (soon).

UPDATE: My CRT died only days after making this post just in case anyone wonders why I never ran tests again, I dont feel comfortable testing with an LCD as a reference, I hope to get the CRT fixed in the near future (Sony GDM-FW900).
Mathesar is offline  
post #59 of 800 Old 04-13-2010, 09:19 PM
Newbie
 
gozoogle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It'd be great to get the 2010 Samsung's measurements...

Orta, thanks for starting this thread.
gozoogle is offline  
post #60 of 800 Old 04-14-2010, 06:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PENDRAG0ON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by gozoogle View Post

It'd be great to get the 2010 Samsung's measurements...

Orta, thanks for starting this thread.

I can't do any of the side by side stuff that others have done, but I can offer a few reference points.

These are using the Guitar Hero lag measurement.

Samsung 52a750 LCD = 66ms lag (Movie Mode, AMP off)
Panasonic 54G10 PDP = 26ms lag (Custom Mode)
Samsung 50c450 PDP = 46ms lag (Movie Mode)

Since the first two sets have been measured on threads like this in the past, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out the general true lag numbers for the C450 Samsung Plasma line.

PSN - Pendragoongp
NNID - Pendragoon
Include your AVS username in the friend request.
PENDRAG0ON is offline  
Reply Plasma Flat Panel Displays

Tags
Plasma Hdtv , Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off