The Official Plasma Input Lag Thread. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 800 Old 05-26-2010, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwuppe View Post

You're right.. and I don't even know what the equivalent to the EU S20 in NA is... I guess it's not the S2 because in the other lag wars thread it said that the S1 (NA) equals the V10 (EU). I guess the same categories apply for the Plasma TVs.

The V20 (EU) Plasma is the most expensive series (only the VT20 is more expensive - but that's 3D).
Question would if the S2 is also the most expensive Plasma in NA (minus 3D).

And then it would be cool to know what the EU S20 equivalent is because this one got a very good review as can be seen in the link from my last post but I can't really be sure if it's valid and if this forum would recommend it as well.

tbh, I have looked for and researched for like 4 days straight now and compared, compared, compared and the only thing I'd like to know now is what's the best pick in regard to Input Lag / price / picture quality atm. I can spend 1100-1200$ at max and the most important thing would probably be Input Lag because that's why I'm here.

In NA, the hierarchy is S2 to G20/25 to VT20/25 (cheapest to most expensive). There is no high end 2D model (e.g. a V20), it doesn't exist over here. I suspect the differences you're noting in your NA/EU comparisons is that they're purposefully sabotaging the performance in the NA models to add more perceived value to the higher ranges--likely cause someone felt that approach would make more money over here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HTSteve View Post

Does anyone have numerical performance data on 720p plasma?

PENDRAG0ON seems to have no issues on a Samsung 50C450 (a little lag on GH/RB games). It would seem to me that since the games are not the same native resolution, the scaling from 720p to 768 would cause additional delay.

Does any one play Wii or PS-2 games? How bad is the lag on 480i games?

Is it that much different? I am trying to understand how lag is affected by the scaling required by the TV. I am not a gamer, so I do not have specific experience.

I just want my kids to be able to play games as well as the old CRT that this panel is replacing.

The X1 and C2 are 720p models, they're listed in the original post. The X1 seems to be about the same as the 1080p S1. The C2 is tough to call cause the user's shutter speed was too slow. Mr. Deap did 480i measures on a G15. "Game Mode" 480i seems to run 10-20ms slower than HD.
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post #92 of 800 Old 05-27-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTSteve View Post

Does anyone have numerical performance data on 720p plasma?

If it's not in Orta's OP it doesn't exist, at least not on AVS. There are a few scattered plasma reports on the shoryuken.com thread but over there they mostly focus on 2X" gaming LCD monitors.
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post #93 of 800 Old 05-29-2010, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwuppe View Post

posted my current issues in the lag wars thread but probably fits better here so i'll just quote it:



The first part doesn't apply in this topic I see as it referred to the other lag wars thread where I thought they were talking about the PxxS1 and not the LxxS1. With the different types I mention (S1, S2, G10, G20) I mean the plasma versions of course.

I wouldn't pay to much attention to the tests done by that site, they have 3 different reviewers and each one uses a different display for input lag tests.

The S20 was reviewed by David Mackenzie who uses a CRT for his tests, the G20 was reviewed by Vincent Teoh who uses a Samsung LCD for his comparisons. David Mackenzie also reviewed the G20 for a different site and measured 21ms input lag: http://www.avforums.com/review/Panas...TV-Review.html

I measured my Panasonic TX-P42S20E as having around 30ms of input lag compared to a CRT. This seems to be in line with the rest of Panasonics 2010 lineup, and I would wager that the G20 will be in the same ballpark.

While I love my S20, I'd say if you have the Money go for the G20. The advanced picture settings along should make it a better TV, not to mention the newer panel and better coating.
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post #94 of 800 Old 05-29-2010, 04:43 AM
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Thanks for the info, sounds very reasonable.
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post #95 of 800 Old 06-06-2010, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

The other night I tested my 54G25 off a PC using SMTT and RefreshRateMultiTool.

Something to keep in mind when doing these tests is that plasma displays refresh differently than CRTs and LCDs

LCDs and CRTs refresh the images from top to bottom (taking about 16ms), while plasmas display the whole image at once.

Because of the way plasma refreshes, it has to be given a full frame before it shows it. The top of the the image will be an extra frame behind a CRT/LCD compared to the bottom of the image. That explains the "between 16 and 32ms video lag".

When using RefreshRateMultiTool, you should use bars that cover the full vertical size of the screen, not the smaller blocks.

I'm looking at getting a G25, but if the G10/G15 is faster, I might get that instead. It's hard to tell if the measurements people have made are accurate. A direct comparison would be awesome! At best, the G25 is less than a full frame away(looks like ~14ms) from the CRT in the images NOAMattD posted, so the G10/G15 can't be much better
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post #96 of 800 Old 06-08-2010, 12:57 PM
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The full-height bars produced a weird effect where the bottom 10% of the bar would be different from the rest of it, is that what you're referring to? I did use exposures of 1/60 second so the CRT would have time to draw a full frame.
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post #97 of 800 Old 06-08-2010, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

The full-height bars produced a weird effect where the bottom 10% of the bar would be different from the rest of it, is that what you're referring to? I did use exposures of 1/60 second so the CRT would have time to draw a full frame.

The video card was likely syncing to the CRT refresh, so the plasma was getting 90% of one frame and 10 percent of the previous frame. This is normal in my tests. The CRT could have drawn the small white rectangle just at the end of the exposure, or just at the beginning, or anywhere in between. If you use the full bars, exposure time doesn't even matter much, as long as it is less than the time it takes to make a cycle . Just compare the furthest that the bars on each screen get.

In your last two screenshots, you can tell that the Plasma is lagging more at the top of the frame than at the middle.

All these tests (not yours) with 20 pictures annoy me. Only one picture should be needed if the test is done correctly. I'd like to see a test that somehow combines the bar method with the SMTT method. Sometimes the SMTT numbers are hard to see because one will cover another.
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post #98 of 800 Old 06-23-2010, 10:44 AM
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I'm currently looking for a 47 inch tv, that I would mainly use for gaming. I'm currently using an sd crt, so I'm pretty sure I'm sensitive to input lag. Originally I wanted to buy an LG 47LH4000, but I've read some very different input lag results of it, ranging from 20 to 80 ms. As far as I know 100 hz and other features only increase lag, so when you switch to game mode they are automatically switched off, so your left with a blurry picture, which I honestly don't really like.

Therefore I started to look for plasmas, especially Panasonics, because they have a reputation for having the least amount of input lag. Unfortunately the G10/G20 modell, that has the new NEOPDP panel is a bit too expensive for me. I've read a review on www .hdtvtest. com, where they claim that the S20 is also equipped with this new panel, so it would be ideal for me, since it has a beutiful picture, but all panasonic homepages (except the UK site) list the S20 among the NON neopdp models.

I'm quite lost now, I'm really short on useful information regarding input lag, so every help is very appreciated.
Do you guys have any suggestions on specific models, or where I should start looking?
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post #99 of 800 Old 06-23-2010, 04:43 PM
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I'm thinking about buying a Panasonic TC-P42U2 42-Inch 1080p plasma. Is there any info on what the input lag would be on one of these? I've searched and found nothing.
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post #100 of 800 Old 06-24-2010, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untitled0101 View Post

I'm thinking about buying a Panasonic TC-P42U2 42-Inch 1080p plasma. Is there any info on what the input lag would be on one of these? I've searched and found nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOAMattD View Post

If it's not in Orta's OP it doesn't exist, at least not on AVS. There are a few scattered plasma reports on the shoryuken.com thread but over there they mostly focus on 2X" gaming LCD monitors.

If it's not in Orta's OP it doesn't exist, at least not on AVS. There are a few scattered plasma reports on the shoryuken.com thread but over there they mostly focus on 2X" gaming LCD monitors.

C'mon guys, it's only a 4 page thread.
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post #101 of 800 Old 06-30-2010, 08:44 PM
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Hmm.... sure wish I still had one of my old CRTs! (I never thought I'd say that...)

Anyway, I did an input lag test on the Panasonic TC-P54VT25 using a laptop as a reference. I don't know what the input lag on the LCD for the laptop itself is, so this will just have to be a preliminary result.

Anyway, here's what I've got:



37 vs. (somewhere between 37 and 58):





62 vs. (somewhere between 62 and 78):





78 vs. 93:





So it looks like about 15ms different from my laptop LCD.

Also keep in mind that the plasma was about 4 feet farther from the camera than the laptop. Due to the fact that the light being emitted from the plasma had to travel an additional 4 feet, it's lag time was unfairly increased. As such, please subtract 4.07ns from any input lag results gleaned from this test

Also note that I had a little bit of trouble with resolutions... my laptop (well... netbook really) couldn't output in a standard resolution recognized by the TC-P54VT25, so I had it outputting in 1366x768. The way the TV handled this was by simply cropping the image down to 1280x720 (I think), and then scaling it to 1920x1080. So maybe the TV's resolution scaling and the laptop's inherent input lag cancel out???

What I really need to make this test accurate is a laptop that can output 1920x1080 and a CRT.

I guess we'll have to make due with this for the moment.

Jarrod
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post #102 of 800 Old 06-30-2010, 09:11 PM
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I have searched and found no one has listed lag numbers for this panel, which I am surprised.

Since it has the neoPDP panel, is it safe to assume the same numbers as the G20?

This would be used for 75% gaming in my kids media room, other 25% movies when we can't agree what to watch.

I really want a low lag display, since they are into Rock Band, GH and Call of Duty, etc and they are used to a CRT.

I was looking at Sharp E77U panels as I am a little concerned about IR/BI, since this will be primarily a gaming display, but the picture performance in game mode on LCDs is not so good.

I have decided to go with Panasonic, since they seem to have the IR issues under control. Not too worried about rising black levels, since it is unlikely my kids will notice if it occurs.

HHGregg is offering me a killer deal on the 42S2, so unless I am missing something, this is what I plan to get.

Reassurance on the lag numbers would be helpful.

Thanks.
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post #103 of 800 Old 06-30-2010, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRod0802 View Post

Hmm.... sure wish I still had one of my old CRTs! (I never thought I'd say that...)

Anyway, I did an input lag test on the Panasonic TC-P54VT25 using a laptop as a reference. I don't know what the input lag on the LCD for the laptop itself is, so this will just have to be a preliminary result.

Anyway, here's what I've got:



37 vs. (somewhere between 37 and 58):

[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e329/JRod0802/IMG_0249.jpg[/IMG



62 vs. (somewhere between 62 and 78):

[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e329/JRod0802/IMG_0251.jpg[/IMG



78 vs. 93:

[IMG]http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e329/JRod0802/IMG_0253.jpg[/IMG



So it looks like about 15ms different from my laptop LCD.

Also keep in mind that the plasma was about 4 feet farther from the camera than the laptop. Due to the fact that the light being emitted from the plasma had to travel an additional 4 feet, it's lag time was unfairly increased. As such, please subtract 4.07ns from any input lag results gleaned from this test

Also note that I had a little bit of trouble with resolutions... my laptop (well... netbook really) couldn't output in a standard resolution recognized by the TC-P54VT25, so I had it outputting in 1366x768. The way the TV handled this was by simply cropping the image down to 1280x720 (I think), and then scaling it to 1920x1080. So maybe the TV's resolution scaling and the laptop's inherent input lag cancel out???

What I really need to make this test accurate is a laptop that can output 1920x1080 and a CRT.

I guess we'll have to make due with this for the moment.

Thanks for the test JRod, added to the OP. Your results seem to mirror what I got on the G10 with a flash timer and low end laptop (integrated graphics).

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTSteve View Post

I have searched and found no one has listed lag numbers for this panel, which I am surprised.

Since it has the neoPDP panel, is it safe to assume the same numbers as the G20?

This would be used for 75% gaming in my kids media room, other 25% movies when we can't agree what to watch.

I really want a low lag display, since they are into Rock Band, GH and Call of Duty, etc and they are used to a CRT.

I was looking at Sharp E77U panels as I am a little concerned about IR/BI, since this will be primarily a gaming display, but the picture performance in game mode on LCDs is not so good.

I have decided to go with Panasonic, since they seem to have the IR issues under control. Not too worried about rising black levels, since it is unlikely my kids will notice if it occurs.

HHGregg is offering me a killer deal on the 42S2, so unless I am missing something, this is what I plan to get.

Reassurance on the lag numbers would be helpful.

Thanks.

I'm not aware of any tests for the S2, but it is quite possible I miss some displays. There seemed to be a slight difference in the G and S last year, but I'm not sure if that was series (S Vs. G) or size (50 Vs. 65") related.
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post #104 of 800 Old 07-01-2010, 05:24 PM
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I will keep looking for S series postings. thanks.
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post #105 of 800 Old 07-05-2010, 05:23 PM
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would be epic if there was someone who could do this who had pk750 or pk950! :-)
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post #106 of 800 Old 07-05-2010, 06:23 PM
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I posted this info in the Samsung plasma threads, but thought it might be helpful here as well. The data is from the Italian tech site DDAY.it. I spot-checked a few of the results with hdtvtest and AVS, and it compares well. Note that these are European models. This site is also referenced in the LCD input lag thread at AVS.

DDay "The Best Gaming TV Test 2010 edition" - results on page 2

Brand Model Standard Game mode
Panasonic TX-L42D25E 20 ms 23 ms
Panasonic TX-P37X20 20 ms 13 ms
Panasonic TX-P42G20 43 ms 30 ms
Panasonic TX-P42V20 23 ms 20 ms
Panasonic TX-P42X20E 17 ms 20 ms
Panasonic TX-P50G20 47 ms 17 ms
Panasonic TX-P50VT20 37 ms 17 ms
Panasonic TX-P50X20 27 ms 17 ms
Sharp LC-22LE320E 17 ms 17 ms
Sharp LC-40LE820 140 ms 17 ms
Sharp LC-42SH7 30 ms 30 ms
Sharp LC-46LE810 143 ms 30 ms
Sharp LC-46LE820 100 ms 13 ms
Sharp LC-52LE820 143 ms 37 ms
Toshiba 37RV685D 30 ms 5 ms
LG 32 LD358 13 ms 8 ms
LG 37LE5308 57 ms 33 ms
LG 37LE5800 67 ms 50 ms
LG 42 LD458 20 ms 17 ms
LG 42 SL9000 33 ms 20 ms
LG 47 LX9800 117 ms 103 ms
LG 50 PK980 43 ms 43 ms
Philips 40PFL5605H 77 ms 10 ms
Samsung 32 C5100 8 ms 8 ms
Samsung 32 C6000 100 ms 47 ms
Samsung 32 C6500 107 ms 47 ms
Samsung 32 C6510 100 ms 43 ms
Samsung 37 C5100 17 ms 17 ms
Samsung 40 C6000 100 ms 47 ms
Samsung 40 C6500 110 ms 50 ms
Samsung 40 C7000 93 ms 43 ms
Samsung 40 C7000 3D 43 ms
Samsung 40 C8000 100 ms 50 ms
Samsung 40 C8000 No Dimm 30 ms
Samsung 55 C7000 100 ms 33 ms
Samsung PS50C530 33 ms 17 ms
Samsung PS50C7000 103 ms 13 ms
Sony KDL-32EX600 37 ms 23 ms
Sony KDL-32EX700 60 ms 33 ms
Sony KDL-32NX500 13 ms 13 ms
Sony KDL-37EX500 30 ms 23 ms
Sony KDL-40BX400 20 ms 13 ms
Sony KDL-40NX700 60 ms 33 ms
Sony KDL-46EX402 13 ms 10 ms
Sony KDL-46EX700 77 ms 43 ms
Sony KDL-46NX700 63 ms 50 ms
Sony KDL-52NX800 70 ms 30 ms

Here's the link to their 2009 results...
DDay "The Best Gaming TV Test 2009 edition" - results on page 2
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post #107 of 800 Old 07-05-2010, 07:20 PM
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They are using a Notebook for their tests, and windows aero seems to be activated in those pictures.
On top of that, they are using a simple flash based timer and only take 3 pictures for each mode.
Might as well roll a dice to see which display performs the best.
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post #108 of 800 Old 07-05-2010, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

They are using a Notebook for their tests, and windows aero seems to be activated in those pictures.
On top of that, they are using a simple flash based timer and only take 3 pictures for each mode.
Might as well roll a dice to see which display performs the best.

True. It's not clear to me how they control for the lag on LCD screen of their notebook (set in clone mode). In that case, at best, the results give a relative comparison, not an absolute figure.

But they say (via a google translation):

"We do not know if the HDMI output of your notebook has a few milliseconds later than the display, but being the source the same for all tests, it has no bearing on the results."
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post #109 of 800 Old 07-06-2010, 08:40 PM
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Ok. A bit confused here. VT25 is 15 but the VT20 is 32? I've heard its 17? Which is it? Does anyone have its real results? This is very important for me to know before I make my next purchase. Also, I was certain the VT20/25 are the same sets. So why would one be any higher?
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post #110 of 800 Old 07-08-2010, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Ok. A bit confused here. VT25 is 15 but the VT20 is 32? I've heard its 17? Which is it? Does anyone have its real results? This is very important for me to know before I make my next purchase. Also, I was certain the VT20/25 are the same sets. So why would one be any higher?

My guess would be they're both the same, you're just seeing discrepancies in the LCD panels used to measure, the GPU's/PC configs, flash timer variations, and possibly the input type (e.g. VGA Vs. HDMI). As you can see, NOA observed a 17-32ms range (primary result 32ms) on the G25 cloned against a CRT running SMTT. There's a solid chance both VT's mirror the G25's results, the VT's just happened to be measured with a less accurate approach (e.g. laptops, flash timer).
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post #111 of 800 Old 07-08-2010, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

My guess would be they're both the same, you're just seeing discrepancies in the LCD panels used to measure, the GPU's/PC configs, flash timer variations, and possibly the input type (e.g. VGA Vs. HDMI). As you can see, NOA observed a 17-32ms range (primary result 32ms) on the G25 cloned against a CRT running SMTT. There's a solid chance both VT's mirror the G25's results, the VT's just happened to be measured with a less accurate approach (e.g. laptops, flash timer).

Oh ok. That makes more sense. I was so confused. I'm still trying to pick out a great tv for gaming use only. I'm pretty much checking this thread every day. Trying to find the best gaming tv.
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post #112 of 800 Old 07-09-2010, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Oh ok. That makes more sense. I was so confused. I'm still trying to pick out a great tv for gaming use only. I'm pretty much checking this thread every day. Trying to find the best gaming tv.

Why don't you just pick one, and try it? These forums are great, but you're going to get so much mixed information, it'll drive you crazy!
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post #113 of 800 Old 07-09-2010, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Trying to find the best gaming tv.

That would be the pio 6020 you sold
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post #114 of 800 Old 07-09-2010, 09:43 AM
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That would be the pio 6020 you sold

No way? I didn't even think if the set being a gaming set. (I didn't consider plasma at the time) so what's next?

Electric. I hate having to return sets. So I'm just trying to find low input lag before I get the set.
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post #115 of 800 Old 07-09-2010, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

No way? I didn't even think if the set being a gaming set. (I didn't consider plasma at the time) so what's next?

Oh yeah that's right lol. Well don't feel too bad as IIRC the kuro's are not quite as good as the panasonics when it comes to input lag. But they are the most resistance to IR and burn-in.
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post #116 of 800 Old 07-09-2010, 09:57 AM
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Well input lag is a biggie for me. I'm back to gaming on my monitor until I can find a great gaming set for now.
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post #117 of 800 Old 07-10-2010, 10:56 AM
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This thread should become a sticky. Its a pain always trying to find such a useful thread.
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post #118 of 800 Old 07-10-2010, 07:37 PM
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My Panasonic's game mode is only noticeable when watching a scrolling ticker, when I set it to game mode, the ticker jumps ahead, when i set it to any other mode, the scrolling ticker jumps back a tad.

I guess that shows me that there is less input lag. However, theres really no way to tell if the lesser input lag is beneficial, as all the modes are pretty damn good. It's impossible to notice 10 or 20ms of lag, isn't it?

The Game mode on my S1 actually turns off a few things: the red is stronger, like the other modes fix some sort of color decoding issue. Also, on game mode, the color bars bleed into each other a tad, all other modes have some processing that fix that.

Personally, I'd give up a few milliseconds in order to have these processes running. Thats why I use CUSTOM mode instead of GAME mode. Games are so stunning today....who would want to give up any image quality?
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post #119 of 800 Old 07-10-2010, 10:23 PM
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I don't think you can notice the difference but its always nice to have less in this case.
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post #120 of 800 Old 07-10-2010, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k View Post

It's impossible to notice 10 or 20ms of lag, isn't it?

Impossible unless you're playing games that require frame perfect input. And then you still can't really tell, you'll just notice you can't do moves that you normally can.
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